Possible biodiesel hype?

[dugawug]

Well, I figure most people reading this won't agree, but let me explain. I've been running B100 in an old mercedes for about 5 years now (when it first started off at $2.60/gal). I was told then that not only would it mean significant reduction in my old 240D's emissions (except in NOx I believe), but that the fuel was actually better for my engine and system overall since biodiesel has the effect of lubricating engine parts and cleaning fuel lines.

So just today I went to talk to a very well trusted mechanic who works on TDI's running biodiesel (blends and B100) quite often, a guy whose name I won't share, but someone who is highly recommended on this forum. The more I talked about putting my first tank of B100 in my new Golf, the more resistance I got from him. I first asked him about his experience with early fuel pump failure in TDIs running biodiesel. He basically said that no matter what, if I start to run biodiesel in my Golf, I would definitely be looking at a premature fuel pump failure. How much earlier, he said it can vary, but that in his mind, it would be certain. This surprised me.

Then we talked more and I mentioned biodiesel's benefits in lubricity and how I hear it's better for your car overall then petrol. That's when he really started to lay out his feeling on biodiesel. He was obviously frustrated about the whole topic and probably because he deals with people day in and day out who have TDIs on biodiesel (this is Berkeley after all). He made it very clear that in his experience, the claim that biodiesel is better for your vehichle is an outright lie and it's actually worse if anything, as to what he's seen. He was trying to keep his personal opinion out of it and tell me "do what you want", but in the end, I was basically strongly told that Biodiesel would do basically no good for my car and actually would do more bad than good in the long run. He didn't give too many details of why, the pump failure was one thing, but he seemed to mention it being tough for cars having to run it in cold climates. I was really surprised with how much resistance he gave me to running it. Though he didn't say it outright, he basically seemed to think the whole biodiesel thing was a crock of s**t.

And I have to say, for the price sticking at $5/gal here in Berkeley, and running the risk of early pump problems, I'm starting to sway against using it after all.

Anyway, just what I was told from someone with a lot of experience working on them. I'd be curious if some other long-time TDI mechanics would have to say to this. I can't really see any reason he'd want to lie to me or sway me from biodiesel. If anything, I would have thought he'd encourage me if he thought it would mean more $$ in repairs.

 

[40X40]

Your old Mercedes will run on just about anything...

Your 02 Golf will run fine on GOOD bio-d and will die young on bad bio-d.

I'd wager the other fellow would recount the conversation differently....HEHE.

Bill

 

[Slave2school]

Good luck.

 

[whitedog]

For some, money isn't the only cost of using petro diesel.

For them, paying more for repairs is worth it for their reasons. As long as a person makes an informed descision based on facts, then run whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[dugawug]

As long as a person makes an informed descision based on facts, then run whatever helps you sleep at night.

agreed, however, "the facts" are hard to distinguish. i've been doing more online reading and there's loads of conflicting information. i don't want to get into how many different concepts and opinions there are on all this, but i do hope to get some other's opinions here, particulary some mechanics who can also chime in with their experience.

the latest thing i gather is that in my case, having a car that's run ULSD and the regular old #2 diesel, i'd probably be looking at a problem with the pump seals down the road if i ran B99 mostly and had to switch out every now and then back to ULSD. it seems enough of a risk for me to consider not taking. again, would like more info from people who know the facts first-hand

or, like this unnamed mechanic mentioned, i could pre-emptively have the pump rebuilt with new seals and that would likely prevent any problems down the road. of course, he wouldn't say exactly how much that would cost me.

 

[ikendu]

Well... I'm not a mechanic. I can only go on my experience.

Over 5 years on B100 and winter blends on my '03 Golf TDI.

No problems what-so-ever as of 113,000 miles. Maybe I've been lucky.

I've always used "factory" biodiesel that meets spec.

 

[Tbirdtree]

1992 F-250 over 100,000 miles on bio of at least b-80, no problems
2003 TDI over 20,000 miles on at least b-70, no problems
Kubota BX23 over 500 hours on b-99, no problems

Just my experience.

 

[megaladon6]

maybe this is a stupid question but, bio-fuel/diesel is different from WVO right? i know that WVO can really screw things up if not used right.

 

[jackbombay]

I've had a couple of pumps wrecked by B100. The fuel was astm certified B100 purchased from a reputable seller.

DFIS in portland did the work on the pump (off a friends car, only 80k on the car, a 199.5 jetta), they said it was "full of rusty mud" and needed $300 of new parts. According to DFIS B100 didn't cause the problem, it was bad B100.

Unfortunately there is no way to tell if the b100 going into your tank is bad or good, I purchased quite a bit of bio from the same source a while back and my pump now needs a trip to DFIS.

After ~600 gallons of B100 through my car I'm not going to run it anymore.

 

[sqdude]

This is a frustrating thing: is bio good or bad? I know how you feel, I wish it were simpler. Some reputable mechanics say yes, others say no. What should you do? I don't have any scientific data, but here are a couple things to think about:

1. Our European friends confirmed that VW supports 100% biodiesel in 2003 and older TDI's, provided it meets EIN standards made from canola. I doubt the fuel systems are completely different. So if bio is inherently bad, why would the manufacturer approve it?

2. Your mechanic couldn't give you any specifics because all he has is anecdotal evidence that biodiesel might be bad. Customer says they used "biodiesel" and has a blown pump, therefore biodiesel = bad. But what kind of bio was it? Was it quality tested? No formal study has ever found a link between bio and engine damage. If such a study existed it would be all over the place. All we have is some mechanic's opinion.

3. Poor quality bio will cause damage. A stoned hippie in his garage can make "biodiesel" while a certified commercial production plant can make ASTM spec biodiesel. Everyone thinks of them as the same but they're not! This is one reason VW won't approve more than B5: the US doesn't have good quality control standards for bio, too many people making it themselves. They don't want to cover warranty damage due to poor quality fuel.

4. All manufacturers approve B5, and some companies like Cummins and CAT approve B20. If biodiesel is some kind of horrible acidic toxic substance, why would anyone approve it in any percentage?

5. The price is $5/gal? So what! That number is meaningless without comparison. With diesel at $3.50 bio is wildly expensive. With diesel at $6/gal suddenly bio is the greatest thing on earth. I see this all the time: diesel goes up and bio is viewed as a good thing. Diesel goes down and bio is an over-priced waste of time. It's the same freakin price!

6. Call Diesel Injection Service in Portland if you want a very reputable shop that supports biodiesel. They rebuild injection pumps from all over America.

7. Don't run B100 below 40F. Yes people do it but the risk of gelling is too high. Switch to B50, then to B20 when it's in the 20's. I'd like to see more tests on how the viscosity changes at those temps, and see if the injection pump is working harder.

 

[Lug_Nut]

dugawug's mechanic's opinion re: biodiesel mimics mine re: veg oil. It's not a matter of if, but of when, serious problems will arise.
But as "opinions" however much empirical evidence either of us apply to bolster them, are just opinions. There are some that run VO with success. There are some that run nothing but petroleum diesel and have problem after problem.
As a percentage of total users there are fewer fuel related problems with petrodiesel, a greater percentage with biodiesel, and a greater yet proportion of those using veg oil. That minimally increased risk of me having fuel related issues because I choose to use high percentages of biodiesel is not enough to outweight the greater advantages I see from using biodiesel and so I choose to accept the risk.

I don't care that CAT or Cummins or VWAG or our european friends say it's OK, just as I don't care that the original poster's mechanic says it isn't. I say that the biodiesel I buy from the source I trust (and I have to deal with if it isn't good) is what matters to me.

 

[jackbombay]

Customer says they used "biodiesel" and has a blown pump, therefore biodiesel = bad. But what kind of bio was it? Was it quality tested?

My friends pump only saw bio from one source, an astm certified source, not BD made by a hippy in his garage.

3. Poor quality bio will cause damage. A stoned hippie in his garage can make "biodiesel" while a certified commercial production plant can make ASTM spec biodiesel.

And an ASTM cert means little, in my experience, $700 of pump work on a car with 70k unacceptable.

If biodiesel is some kind of horrible acidic toxic substance, why would anyone approve it in any percentage?

Thats being a little bombastic don't you think?

6. Call Diesel Injection Service in Portland if you want a very reputable shop that supports biodiesel. They rebuild injection pumps from all over America.

I wrench on TDIs and IDIs from time to time, and thats where I send all my pumps when they need help, they are the ones that confirmed that it was bad bio, which was ASTM certified, that ruined the pump.

 

[KDG]

[T]he latest thing i gather is that in my case, having a car that's run ULSD and the regular old #2 diesel, i'd probably be looking at a problem with the pump seals down the road if i ran B99 mostly and had to switch out every now and then back to ULSD.

From lots of anecdotal evidence (on posts here and elsewhere), quite a few people with older diesels who have never run BD are reporting seal failure just from the switch from old #2 diesel to ULSD. The recommendation I've seen is to use an additive to increase lubricity...one suggestion being biodiesel.

 

[sqdude]

I wrench on TDIs and IDIs from time to time, and thats where I send all my pumps when they need help, they are the ones that confirmed that it was bad bio, which was ASTM certified, that ruined the pump.

If it was bad bio then it didn't meet ASTM certifications! You're absolutely right that a piece of paper doesn't guarantee fuel quality. There are tons of things that can damage fuel, most common is poor storage practices.

If you had run 600 gallons of diesel from one station, then their tank grew algae and you blew a pump, would you conclude that diesel is a bad fuel and it should never be run?

What do you say to me and the hundreds of other bio users who have never seen any problems? Especially those who have your same car and have run twice as many miles on bio?

 

[dugawug]

lots of good points brought up here.

all i can say is after the posts here and all the reading i've done elsewhere, i feel pretty confident now about running biodiesel, at least having an idea of what may or may not be any consequences, and can see that the mechanic, like sqdude mentions, is probably seeing some pump problems on biodiesel and equating biodiesel=bad. if i do end up talking with the guy again soon, i will pin him down to explain more on his opinion and report anything interesting back later.

we do have a great source with biofuel oasis here, so i will say i doubt it has anything to do with bad bio, for our locals here at least. i'm sure lots of bad bio out there is giving bio a bad name, however.

but to sum up what my conclusions are, if that's possible without confusing myself , is it seems you can't necessarily attribute pump leaks to running biodiesel. some people, like on this thread (thanks for posting) are going strong with no problems yet, and people not even on biodiesel are seeing pump problems prematurely. [have we considered that ULSD could be more of a culprit here than biodiesel?. or more generally stated, could it be that running any new type of fuel that has a different effect on the seals would then make the seals more prone to early failure?...plain and simple?]

so continuing, i do believe adding biodiesel (or probably ANY new type of fuel, like ULSD from only #2, as just speculated) to the mix does increase the chances that the pump may have bad seals sooner simply because the new fuel has a different effect (shrinking/swelling) on seals than does the original fuel.

so basically, biodiesel or not, i just need to prepare to change out pump seals someday, whether it be in one year or in five (or in ten). that's not a huge $$ job so i hear (and some have reported just changing the head seal O-ring alone fixed things up...and many of those people did it themselves). that said, i'm assuming that if i do run bio, that it's likely that the pump reseal day will come a bit sooner, but who cares? my seals have already seen #2 and ULSD, so may be a bit more strained already.

so beyond the injector pump seals ~possibly~ going early, that's all i see in the cons for me.

oh, except the price, don't get me started one that one though

[maybe i'll start a new thread for that someday, that'll really get people going ]

 

[vwrobert51]

bottom line!!!! all U.S. spec tdis WERE NOT DESIGNED TO RUN BIOFUELS, TO MEET U.S. EPA SPECS! ITS ONLY #2 ULSD , END OF STORY!

 

[DCELL]

I wish b100 was conveniently available in my area. I've put over 170,000 trouble-free miles between two cars on b20. The cars seem to sound better and feel like they run better on it. Not to mention the US based industry and farming that it supports. If a pump fails, I guess I'll get a new one. Do your research and draw your own conclusions. If you feel there is a risk, be prepared to take it if you go that route. It's all about what you feel comfortable with.

 

[4Gman]

bottom line!!!! all U.S. spec tdis WERE NOT DESIGNED TO RUN BIOFUELS, TO MEET U.S. EPA SPECS! ITS ONLY #2 ULSD , END OF STORY!

You don't need to shout! That won’t make your oil stocks go up.

Our U.S. spec TDIs were not designed to reach 200hp. But many here peruse more power at their own expense. Why is biodiesel any different? Actually, it could be arguable less harmful to our cars and the environments.
WOW. I think it also comes with fries.

Plus.... after I mod my car and I use biodiesel, both my car AND the United States of America are more empowered.
Energy independence IS national security..... END OF STORY!

 

[jackbombay]

If it was bad bio then it didn't meet ASTM certifications!

Thats the problem, it did meet astm specs, but my buddies pump was still damaged.

If you had run 600 gallons of diesel from one station, then their tank grew algae and you blew a pump, would you conclude that diesel is a bad fuel and it should never be run?

I never said all bio is bad, quit it with the straw men. Besides the bio was purchased over several years, and it definitely came from more than one tank/batch.

My point was that there is no way for a consumer to conclude that fuel is or isn't bad before it goes into their tank they should know that they are risking many hundred dollars of damage to their car.

What do you say to me and the hundreds of other bio users who have never seen any problems? Especially those who have your same car and have run twice as many miles on bio?

Please send your pump to DFIS for an inspection so that "no problems" can be confirmed by an outside party. I look forward to their findings.

 

[jackbombay]

so beyond the injector pump seals ~possibly~ going early, that's all i see in the cons for me.

My friends pump needed far more than just new seals, fwiw.

 

[schumacher62]

i had my 03 wagon in for a timing belt and 80k service recently, and my mechanic asked me if im running bio or diesel. i told him i use both, depending on whether i can get to the biofuel distributor conveniently. he told me he is currently replacing two fuel pumps, and came to the conclusion, having done some studies on his own i suppose, that switching back and forth between fuels versus sticking with one or the other is bad for the fuel pump, specifically for the gaskets within the pump.

when i told him i typically, but not always, run b100, he said that is fine as long as you dont alternate between bio and diesel. since i have been using diesel recently (bio jumped to almost 6 dollars a gallon here in the past months) i have decided to just stick with the diesel.

i have yet to run any bio in the 09. i suppose i could use some b20 safely, but until more is known about bio regarding this new under warranty car, im going to keep with the diesel.

that said, after alternating bio and diesel for a year in my 03, there are no signs of leakage or pump failure, so says my mechanic.

 

[dugawug]

My friends pump needed far more than just new seals, fwiw.

noted. that's interesting to me because i had only heard so far that a re-seal job was all that was needed to patch things up for these leak issues. so did the whole pump need replacing? this wasn't related to bad bio, or was it? i'd like to believe (heh) that the worst that could happen running clean bio is that the pump seals need to be replaced. but maybe that's wishful thinking?

edit: actually, re-reading your previous posts, that's your friend who was running ASTM approved bad bio (nice oxymoron), correct? that doesn't surprise me then that the whole pump had to go.

 

[ikendu]

bottom line!!!! all U.S. spec tdis WERE NOT DESIGNED TO RUN BIOFUELS, TO MEET U.S. EPA SPECS! ITS ONLY #2 ULSD , END OF STORY!

It would be "end of story" (your quote, deliberately re-written in lower case) for those people that want warranty coverage or who are fine using petroleum for fuel.

I have a flashlight that specifies "alkaline batteries only". I hate to fill up the local land fill with throw away batteries so I've been using NiMH rechargeable batteries in it now for about 4 years; with no problems what-so-ever. What does it mean? ...I choose to do something "beyond the warranty" that is better for our environment.

Sorry, I wish manufacturers would be more concerned with what is good for our Earth... but mostly they aren't so I have to "go it alone".

Get informed. Make your choices. Live with them.

End of story. <--- this is lower case.

 

[jackbombay]

edit: actually, re-reading your previous posts, that's your friend who was running ASTM approved bad bio (nice oxymoron), correct? that doesn't surprise me then that the whole pump had to go.

That brings us back to my initial point, that you as the consumer can't tell if fuel is good or bad, "make sure its ASTM certified" is not a valid option either. Is the ASTM cert on the pump you get your bio from any different fro the cert that was on the pump my friend got his bio from? Nope. Its a crap shoot.

 

[sqdude]

Thats the problem, it did meet astm specs, but my buddies pump was still damaged.

I never said all bio is bad, quit it with the straw men. Besides the bio was purchased over several years, and it definitely came from more than one tank/batch.

My point was that there is no way for a consumer to conclude that fuel is or isn't bad before it goes into their tank they should know that they are risking many hundred dollars of damage to their car.

Please send your pump to DFIS for an inspection so that "no problems" can be confirmed by an outside party. I look forward to their findings.

You said you ran 600 gallons of bio in your car and now you won't run it anymore. So that's what I asked you: if you ran 600 gallons of diesel and had to fix the pump, logically you should also conclude that diesel is a poor fuel choice.

The fuel manufacturer can claim their fuel meets ASTM, but it sounds like DFIS said the fuel was "bad bio." If that's the case then it doesn't meet ASTM (despite the "certification"). In that scenario you should pull a fuel sample and have it independently tested. All fuel manufacturers and retailers have liability insurance to cover damage done by their fuel (including diesel). More than likely it did not meet ASTM spec, so the fuel maker is held liable.

You're right that customers don't know what they're putting in their tanks. You could go to Chevron and pump water into your tank, but that doesn't mean you're an idiot, it means the station is liable.

I don't think any of us need to spend hundreds of dollars pulling our pumps. 30k, 60k, and 100k miles on biodiesel is convincing enough for me. At an average of 45mpg, that's 667, 1333, and 2222 gallons of fuel burned without issue.

 

[jackbombay]

In that scenario you should pull a fuel sample and have it independently tested. All fuel manufacturers and retailers have liability insurance to cover damage done by their fuel (including diesel). More than likely it did not meet ASTM spec, so the fuel maker is held liable.

Maybe it did meet spec, maybe it didn't. Is all the fuel they sell "bad"? Probably not, but some of it was, what if the sample tests good? When the car got to me It had #2 in the tank anyway as I live 750 miles from him so it wasn't possible for me to pull a sample of the B!00, and the car ad been slowly going "downhill" for some time before I pulled the pump.

I'm sure we could do this all day, you make assumptions about the scenario that are incorrect then I correct you, but at this point its water under the bridge, no matter how much you second guess me it won't change the fact that B100 which was astm certified ruined my friends pump. Now you can talk about their storage or X Y and Z.

Should he pull samples from their pump and when one comes back bad then make a claim that it wrecked his pump? Is that even morally sound?

Most likely it would turn into a I said they said scenario consisting of "So you ONLY ran our fuel in the car?" and as he only ran their B100 %95 of the time they would be off the hook as there was no proof the contamination came from their fuel, which is what you'll probably post up here in a minute.

The reason I don't post about this stuff here is that everyone will come up with any possible reason to brush off my experience and tell me what I should have done, or I should have sued the fuel maker, etc... But nobody will have any real solutions to the underlying problem, maybe you do.

That problem, once more, how do you/I as a consumer tell if the fuel coming out of a pump is bad or good? Do you recommend pulling a sample with every fill up and having it tested? Testing a sample every other tank? from each batch of fuel produced? How much time and money will all this take?

Wreck my pump once shame on you, wreck my pump twice shame on me.

 

[BioPassat]

I hear about it all the time...

I agree with those that state that just because the pump says its ASTM certified, doesn't mean that it is!

In the cases I've seen out here on this side of the pond, I've found out that sometimes these batches of Biodiesel were NOT properly washed and/or dried. I've seen bad "ASTM" Bio that was washed of it's lye and methanol but wasn't dried properly resulting in the Bio being saturated with water from water-washing the BioDiesel. I've also seen "ASTM" Bio that still had traces of methanol and lye in it!

This is why I make my own. That way if there is a problem I can slap the idiot (me) that made the bad batch of Bio!

Of course if you put this stuff in an old 240D Benz, I'm sure it would burn the excess water, lye and methanol without a problem!

 

[Lug_Nut]

bottom line!!!! all U.S. spec tdis WERE NOT DESIGNED TO RUN BIOFUELS, TO MEET U.S. EPA SPECS! ITS ONLY #2 ULSD , END OF STORY!

Do you care to requalify the "all" I bolded for you in your quote?
I agree that VWoA has a policy of withholding warranty coverage for any biodiesel use in their PD engines, your fallacious implication that no US market TDI was designed to operate on biodiesel is false. The EPA testing might have been only on petrodiesel, just as the flex fuel E85 cars have been approved while running gasoline, but the EPA approval for sale remains in effect whichever fuel is used by the retail purchaser. The owner then has to demonstrate continued compliance by periodic state mandated inspections and any emission limit compliance failure regardless of choice of fuel has to be repaired for continued use on pulic roads.
The VE pump TDI imported and sold by VWoA were designed by VWAG to operate on diesel or biodiesel, and not just on #2 ULSD for that matter.
VWoA as the guarantor of reimbursement for repairs can limit the conditions under which they will provide compensation, but that does not change the fact that some of the TDI (but not the PD) were designed by VWAG to operate on biodiesel or petroleum based diesel.

 

[AutoDiesel]

This site hasn't changed much since I was here last.

 

[highender]

Two things:

1- mechanics only fix the bad fuel pumps. The good ones they do not talk about or hear about as often...so what they say skews the facts.
- They see some problems in injection pumps with the switch over from LSD to ULSD .
-they see some problems with biodiesel pumps.
- they see some problems with pumps running just one type, several types, or mix and match.

None of this is good scientific method of fact finding. OTOH, to control for driving conditions, different fuel mixtures, quality, sizable test injection pumps, sizable control groups , etc...would be impossible.


2- Do you guys know how dirty the bottom of diesel and gasoline carrying tankers, both the ocean going and the semi truck kinds, are ? In addition, all the water, gunk, rust, floating and on the bottom stuff, that the storage tanks of ALL refineries have ? There is even a difference inside each tank...with the top layers having lighter more aromatic mixtures, while the bottom of the tanks generally have the heavier, less aromatic mixtures. We even have special sample collection bottles, so that we can at least try to get a little sample from each layer inside a tank.



Good thing we have fuel filters. But the quality of fuel is different for each batch...though they may technically all hit the required benchmark standards.
At the risk of spoiling our idealistic trust in fuel quality even more....I will say only that when 3 labs disagree on the results of the lab tests on one sample , something happens and viola , they get one set of results. !! (hint, they do NOT necessarily do anything to the fuel).



You guys are ,paradoxically , all correct, and technically, incorrect.