Porsche 944 turbo Diesel project in the planning stages.

Houpty GT

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Location
South Carolina
TDI
Corrado
This project has already been start in research but I will be most likely finding another job, moving, and buying a house before the swap actually starts. This thread will help others possibly and also help me hopefully before it starts.

I already have the engine. It is in my rusted 1998 Jetta with mild body damage (New York car). The body is not worth fix when you consider what you can by a good body for. As far as swapping the motor, why just swap into another Jetta? I have considered several things that will bolt up for the most part but not come across anything convincing enough to start with. I am a fan of Audi but have no specific need for quattro in South Carolina. A TT convertible would be wonderful in fwd or awd but I have not seen any with blown motors even though I am sure they are out there. As far as VW, a Corrado is cool but I have not seen one of those in good body and interior condition. My big idea was a Porsche 924 or 944. The 944 is heavier and less aerodynamic than the Jetta or 924 but the coolness makes up for that.

The VW 4 banger will not bolt to the 924 as I expected even though it had a 4 cylinder Audi motor. The 924 and 944 bell housings are swappable with each other for the most part. The following thread shows a 16V motor using the VW bell housing with a homemade adaptor plate to mount it to a 924 torque tube.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2979430
I have become so fascinated with the idea of the 944 turbo Diesel that I am going to persue it even though it slightly violates my rule of bolt-in only. The 5 cylinder TDI can be bolted up but I don't have one of those so it will not be considered.

I have borrowed a 944 bell housing for testing. I have a 944 with nice body and interior lined up for $1,000 but have no good place to put it right now. I have dismantled a 020 transmission and learned that it is not the same as the hydraulic TDI 02J tranny (I am fresh to VW :) ). The 020 bellhousing has no provisions for a clutch control since it uses a throwout bearing rod that goes through the main shaft.

Things to do:
Acquire a 02J or similar (02A?) bell housing
Examine the 944 engine bay to determine where there is usable room for starter, slave cylinder, etc. The 944 has the starter and the slave cylinder on the bottom side of the engine.
find out how to handle preassure plate, clutch, and flywheel.
There is a big variety of gearing and differentials for 944/924 and turbos so I believe I can work out gearing similar to the stock TDI gear box. I have not gotten the stock TDI gearing or preferable gearing yet.
There is plenty more but I can only do one step at a time.

Earlier thread I posted in South East region:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=239896&highlight=porsche
 

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 5, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
'94 Golf Sport TDI
I have a 924 bell housing sitting around if you were in need of one. It uses a cable clutch. The 924 uses a variant of the Audi 100LS engine which has the pushrods removed and sports an overhead cam. As you've figured out, the 924 engine shares it's bolt pattern with the 5 cylinder engines.
 

Pat Dolan

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
Location
Martensville, SK
TDI
2003 A4 Variant, 2015 Q7
Yeah, rule #1 for this swap is to use an Audi engine since it will bolt right in. However, there may be some issues with clearance at the back of the cylinder head where the fuel injection pump drive takes off from the back of the cam (and if you use a later TDI 2.5, there is a massive flywheel/damper on the pump pulley to contend with - or remove).

If you really want to use a 4 banger, just go to any VW type II and get a bellhousing for a diesel, or one of the gasser conversion bellhousings for the same gearbox. Unlike most VWs, the Type II has a bolt-on "bellhousing" (actually the rear cover for the diff) that allows you a perfectly flat, indexable bolt pattern to put an adapter plate on if you want to bolt to the 924/44 torque tube. You could just as easily weld such a plate on and face it off (it will distort when welded) to bolt the torque tube directly to the "bellhousing" (available shaft length may dictate such a requirement).

I have a 924 M471 and an Audi 2.0 5 cyl TDI waiting for a turn at this swap. If it works out well, I will buy a nice 924S and 2.5 TDI to repeat it.
 

Pat Dolan

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
Location
Martensville, SK
TDI
2003 A4 Variant, 2015 Q7
buckeye96 said:
What about a 914? Which was a VW badged as a Porsche.
No, it is a long way from being a VW. There ARE a few parts on the 914-4 that are VW (the rear suspension is pretty much VW and the disc brakes are based on Type III or Type IV, can't remember which, and the basic engine is type IV...but not the heads...is pure VW - as was the 912E) but they are very few.

HOWEVER, all 900s use the VW engine bolt pattern...the AIR COOLED bolt pattern. So, to use a TDI, you need an adapter plate (available for bolting gassers into Type IIs). Another solution is to build a reverse rotation Type II gearbox and use a South African Type II bellhousing (rear housing) that bolts directly to 5 cyl Audi engines.
 

StreetCrawler

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Location
Colorado
TDI
Porsche 951
I have been considering this swap for a while now.

I picked up a non-running Porsche 951 for the swap. (then I made it a running 951, silly me:rolleyes: )

In the process of doing the research now, would love any help you guys can give.


Cole
 

StreetCrawler

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Location
Colorado
TDI
Porsche 951
FWIW.

Porsche 951 gear ratios.

DrivetrainTransmission:
Final Drive Ratio:3.38:1
Gear Ratios, top speed:
1st:3.50, 39 mph (6400 rpm)
2nd:2.06, 67 mph (6400 rpm)
3rd:1.40, 98 mph (6400 rpm)
4th:1.03, 133 mph (6400 rpm)
5th:0.83, 157 mph (6100 rpm)
 
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Pat Dolan

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
Location
Martensville, SK
TDI
2003 A4 Variant, 2015 Q7
StreetCrawler said:
I have been considering this swap for a while now.

I picked up a non-running Porsche 951 for the swap. (then I made it a running 951, silly me:rolleyes: )

In the process of doing the research now, would love any help you guys can give.


Cole
I think there may be an issue with the pump drive clearing the firewall area. The solution I THINK is to use the lateset 2.5 engine...that I think is now CRD. Need someone in Europe to confirm.

If my little 2.0 924/Audi TD works well, I want to do the 951 oir 968 thing.
 

Houpty GT

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Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Location
South Carolina
TDI
Corrado
The future of the 944tdi hangs in jeopardy. I am looking a a nice Corrado that would make a much easier swap.

I do not think the starter for the tdi will fit in the 944 with out sledgehammer modifications to the firewall or moving the motor further forward with a custom drive shaft and torque tube.
Is there a VW starter that will bolt up and not be as long as the stock starter?
 

Scott_DeWitt

Vendor
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Location
Texas USA
TDI
2000 Audi A4 1.9TDI quattro
Pat Dolan said:
The solution I THINK is to use the lateset 2.5 engine...that I think is now CRD. Need someone in Europe to confirm.

If my little 2.0 924/Audi TD works well, I want to do the 951 oir 968 thing.
You are correct the latest incarnation of the 2.5 5 cylinder tdi is actually based on the earlier non VE 5 cylinder and it is common rail.

Personally i'd prefer a 924S.. It's got all the neato things the 944 has, except the wide fenders and its more aerodynamic and lighter.

Houpty GT said:
I do not think the starter for the tdi will fit in the 944 with out sledgehammer modifications to the firewall or moving the motor further forward with a custom drive shaft and torque tube.
Is there a VW starter that will bolt up and not be as long as the stock starter?
The longitudinal 1.9 starters are mounted engine side not transmission side.
 
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Pat Dolan

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
Location
Martensville, SK
TDI
2003 A4 Variant, 2015 Q7
Scott_DeWitt said:
The longitudinal 1.9 starters are mounted engine side not transmission side.
As are the 2.5 starters, but I can not find a longitudinal DIESEL starter for our Westy Syncro project. Scott, if you have one, send it along with 228mm flywheel! I MIGHT be able to get my starter/alternator shop buddy to build one by reversing rotation of my transverse 2.4 starter, but it sounds like it will take a LOT of parts (that I think he has). A part number or two would also be nice for complete starter with correct torque and rotation.
 

Houpty GT

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Location
South Carolina
TDI
Corrado
Scott_DeWitt said:
The longitudinal 1.9 starters are mounted engine side not transmission side.
Do these mount to the same type of bell housing or is it different? Does anyone have a picture of one? What cars did they come on?
 

Pat Dolan

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
Location
Martensville, SK
TDI
2003 A4 Variant, 2015 Q7
Houpty GT said:
Do these mount to the same type of bell housing or is it different? Does anyone have a picture of one? What cars did they come on?
Longitudinal bell housings are VERY different from transverse. Check out ETKA or a Bentley manual for any B platform Audi 4 cyl or VW B1 Dasher/Santana or B5 Passat. Not sure where they index.

The 924 bell is strictly Audi bolt pattern, shared with the 5 cyl. VW/Aud engines - almost. Looking at a Haynes 924 manual and C1 Bentley, there are a few bolt holes on the 5 banger that are not on the 924, but the rest are in the right place.

For 5 cyl crowd: I have solved my starter dilema - completly forgot that the C1 platform came in NA with the 2.0 diesel and manual gearbox. Thus, a diesel inline starter for engine side rotation. However, I think they were direct drive, and I really do want a gear reduction lightweight one. At least I have a starting point.

IF there is a conflict with hood clearance, and still some room on the RHS, I may want to cut the torque tube and rotate it a bit to move the engine down - just a thought. I have done similar on other cars.

DAMN, I want to work on this thing (only about 4 major projects ahead of it).
 
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