Please Help! Rear Main Seal Replacement Tonight

[A5INKY]

Jan 2011 - FYI, I sold this tool some time ago. But I would not recommend doing this job without it.

Also, here is a good write up of the procedure if you want the "cliff notes" version: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a5/Rear-main-seal-Jetta-Golf-mk5.htm

I am in the middle if installing a new clutch due to DMF failure and am also replacing the rear main seal (was leaking). There is a crank sensor associated with the seal in my BRM engine. The seal is reading off a ring that slips on the end of the crank with a small hole in it.

Do I need to "time" the placement of this hole in relation to TDC? if so how?

I noticed the new seal has an orange plastic clip holding the hole at top. I have searched and found nothing. My Bently has no info on this.

Gurus, please help!

BTW, this is the second flywheel failure in this car at 102K miles. The first replacement was under warranty and they insisted on OEM DMF. It is getting a SMF Sachs now.

 

[A5INKY]

I am in it now. Lacking any input I started searching. Ross Tech website links to VW's "Erwin" online service info, for $35 I got 24 hours access.

Turns out that the orientation of the ring for the sensor is super critical. So much so that VW has a very special tool for it. The tool holds the ring in the proper orientation while pressing the ring onto the crank shaft while at TDC, all while aligning the seal it self.

Looks like I am off to the dealership to see if I can beg or shame them into letting me borrow it. Not likely but has to happen even if I have to bribe someone. Maybe the service writter will take pitty considering his shop did same repair at the end of the warranty period and it started leaking again shortly thereafter.

Is there any easy way to set TDC? I cannot find any handy marks like on the timing covers of gasser motors. Can't stick a dial indicator in the spark plug hole, no plugs.

There must be some "trick" to setting TDC. Help please if you can.

 

[Ol'Rattler]

Was waiting for somone to post this.

I went to a DC SMF about 1000 miles ago and had the same dilema with wanting to change the rear main on my A5. Since I was at 50K miles and the rear main was not leaking, I did not change it. The proceedure as spelled out in my CD Bentleys was very involved and did require some special tools and procedures.

I found, in the back of my paper Bentleys, a web site for every VW special tool called out in the Bentleys manual. When I get off work, I will post the web site as well a list of the special tools required.

Maybe we can get MetalNurd or one of the other venders to rent the tools required to do the job.

Even though my clutch will probably last till 200K, the rear main will probably start leaking sometime before then................

 

[Ol'Rattler]

VW tool source. sold by tool P/N in the Bentleys manual. Just select VW and submit and then select browse catolog. And then order by phone. They are very helpfull.

http://buy.equipmentsolutions.com/login/login.aspx

I'm thinking that you have the Erwin, you probably have the VW special tools P/Ns.

There is a TDC mark on the flywheel. I don't know what it aligns with, especially with the transaxle and flywheel removed. Maybe someone that knows will weigh in on this.

To find TDC, Bentleys directs you to the timing belt procedure. Looks like the tool that holds the crank during belt change would asure TDC..............

Oh, ya. I'd print out what you need from Erwins before the subscription runs out including the timing belt, main seal, transaxle, clutch and flywheel procedures..............Just a though....

 

[A5INKY]

Thanks for weighing in on this Ol'Rattler. I was feeling like to lone cowboy out on the range.

I really appreciate the link and will look in to the tool if I cannot shame my dealer into helping me out of this jam. For reference the VW tool for installing the seal is: assembly tool -T10134-

I printed the entire repair manual from Erwin, all 266 pages. I also got the tech article about oil dripping from the turbo issue. I will get back on there again today and make sure there is nothing I am missing.

If anyone has a "trick" for setting the engine at TDC, please share. The procedure in the manual for the timing belt seems too involved the be the only way.

 

[A5INKY]

Dealership is no help (of course). I am up against a wall and have to get the car back together. I went ahead and ordered the seal installer tool from VW, thanks Ol'Rattler for the link. $218 for the tool! Maybe someone will want to bu it off me when I am done with it.

I also ordered a cam locator pin that I hope will set TDC precisely, per the timing belt procedure. My only fear is that though the cam will be straight up, it is no guarentee that the crank is straight up as well.

Anyone know if this is a legitimate concern?

Anyone want to buy a gently used BRM rear main seal installation tool?

 

[Ol'Rattler]

I thought that the locater tool for the crank sprocket would be the way to go, although it is more work than using the cam locator tool.

With the cam tool you might be able to take # 1 piston glow plug or injector out and and put something in the hole and gently rock the engine back and forth past were the cam tool thinks TDC is. There will be a point on either side of TDC were the "indicator" in the glowplug or injector hole just starts to move back down. half way between those 2 points is TDC.

Be very carefull you don't break anything off in the cylender...................

I've got a call into a tech that helped me with issues I had when I went to SMF. he might have some ideas, as well.

 

[A5INKY]

I got to looking closer at the tool I just ordered and the procedure I got off erWin. Looks like the tool has a pin built in to fine tune and hold crank TDC as part of the process. I am thinking that setting the cam at TDC is the start, then verify exact position with the VW tool when pressing the tone ring on the crank. By setting the cam first you know you are on the right rotation of the cam for actual TDC and not 360 degrees out (though, I guess it really would not matter-the crank does not care what the cam is doing for this sensor).

I am thinking I have this under control and as soon as I have the tool in hand it should go smooth.

Good bye oil leak. And thought a new seal would be so simple...

 

[Ol'Rattler]

If the tool has a positive index to the crank, then the locating pin would go into the hole at TDC. And your right, I think. as long as the crank is at TDC the crank position sensor doesn't even know what the cam is doing.

Saw your post in the tranny whine thread and am amazed. That is certainly one of the most epic fails by a dealer I have ever read about. Sounds like for what they spent, they could have bought you an new engine with change left over.

There is a thread on the forum about why you should never go to a dealer.................

Like Geremy Clarkston might say: I can't even describe the magnatude of their fail. It was of Biblical proportions

 

[dsmith1279]

A5INKY, Keep us in the loop on your progress. I just got done doing my SMF and too felt like a Lone Ranger when I found out that the used A5 I bought had an A4 tranny in it!!! Ugh, what a nightmare, but none the less it all worked out. You should be able to get your money back out of that tool as the A5s are beginning to hit the low triple digits and will eventually need their rear mains changed out. Heck, you could even do a "rental" program!

Hope you get it all figured out.

 

[paramedick]

If you need to borrow a BRM crank lock tool, drive up and see me tomorrow. Only an hour up the BG Parkway.

I do need it back in a timely fashion. You're welcome for a week or so.

 

[mtbr297]

This style of seal is used on the CBEA engine and probably the newer gas engines since the tool has 2 pins for aligning the tone ring, a black for gas engines and red for diesel.

 

[A5INKY]

Ya Hoooooo! Success, oil leak is gone for the first time since I have had the car!

Sorry it has been a while to update on this. I did get the tool and though it was the most complicated seal replacement I have ever done, it went really smoothly.

On closer inspection I found the seal had a hole poked in it under the crank sensor! Another area was damaged but not all the way through. I also found metal filings, a bunch of gasket material and a spring(!) in the oil pump pick up (grenaded head caused by improper crank sensor replacement at dealer that was not cleaned up after.) Found two critical stripped fasteners at the oil pan (bottom bell housing mount) and motor mount. Found a plastic bushing in the shift linkage was also missing causing intermittant balky shifts at 4-5. Long story short, I feel raped by the dealership. Bachman VW in Louisville if anyone is keeping score. If anyone at Bachman is reading this, YOUR COMPANY SUCKS! Beware of these idiots, TDI Clubbers.

I question if the seal was ever replaced, let alone twice as claimed by the dealer. If it was replaced, I wonder if they even had the tool, or if they faked it.

On a positive note, the Sachs clutch with 14lb. SMF from Aaron at Bora Parts is really nice. The pedal is lighter than stock, that took a little while to get used to but I like it now. As expected from a SMF set-up, there is significant "gear roll-over" noise when idling in neutral but it is a small concession for the peace-of-mind of knowing the DMF is not getting ready to explode.

I now have this special tool from VW that I hope to not ever need on my car again. Yes, I believe mtbr297 is right, it is the same tool used on the gasser motors for their seal as it has the two locator pins (red and black). I am not actually in the automotive business anymore and not really interested in running a tool rental. However, I would make a good deal to someone in need, preferably as a rental in case I ever neeed it again, Paramedick? Bleached Bora? I paid $218 +shipping, would take offers.

Thanks, Ol'Rattler for the link to the tool website.

 

[aNUT]

Solution

I ran into this problem yesterday. FWIW, if you don't have the reference ring installed in the correct position, you get camshaft position sensor implausible codes and a car that won't start. Yes, I learned this the hard way
The solution is:
The reference ring and the seal carrier have a TDC mark. The mark on the ring is the oblong 4mm hole. The mark on the seal carrier is a small indentation straight up; in line with the cylinder bore axis. (This is about 1 o'clock with the engine in the installed position)

My Victor Reinz seal came with an orange plastic locating clip with centers the ring in the seal carrier. Install the reference ring in this position with the engine at exactly TDC using the crank lock which engages the timing belt pulley.
If you do not have the orange plastic clip, the oblong hole should be exactly centered between the top two bolt holes in the seal carrier that secure it to the block. This distance is 1.3 in.

These are Jim 'Dieselgeek' Royston's pictures. He absolutely went way out of his way, running all over town to get me out of a jam. I feel really good about buying products from such a stand up guy, and I encourage all TDI owners to do the same.

 

[dzcad90]

Adding this post to the MkV FAQ. Thanks for the good work, descriptions, and pictures on this thread!!

 

[A5INKY]

Since this is now stickied, thought I would post a pic of the tool in question in action:

 

[Growler]

wow.. all that to replace a rear main seal? How is it any different than replacing one on an ALH?

 

[MTB_TDI]

aNUT,
So can you install the rear main seal without the tool if you use this method?

 

[mnguy]

Anyone do it without the tool? I just ordered a seal.

 

[A5INKY]

Anyone do it without the tool? I just ordered a seal.

Amazing things can be done in a pinch, like getting your BRM to run right after changing this seal w/o the right tool. I would not recommend that strategy for this job though.

Many aspects of engine management strategy rely to crank position sensor data. It is pretty critical on most cars, I doubt ours are an exception. Pressing that ring on to the crank to the right depth, with minimal lateral runout, and (most critically) in proper relation to crank angle is a tall order.

Add to that challenge the fact that the sensor is buried between the eng/trans and cannot be "tested" that you got it right w/o putting the car back together first. If it is only slightly off, the ECU will not know a critical piece of data and performance and efficiency will suffer. If it is off just a little bit more then the car will not start, as aNut found out the hard way.

It was not worth the risks to me to save $218 dollars. My car is more important to me than that, not to mention the value of my time to have to completely redo the job plus to have to buy another seal/sensor AND the tool anyway.

Just my 2 cents

 

[mnguy]

I was under the impression that if I had everything locked at tdc the clip that comes with the seal would align it correctly and that when you torqued it down it would set the in and out.

Thanks

 

[DanG144]

I worked with a club member in Scandahoovia (Norway if I recall correctly) that had this sensor mis-installed on his car. It cost him and his dealer quite a bit of time and money to figure this out.

As was pointed out in this thread, doing a poor install on this seal and sensor ring combination can cause a cam sensor code, or a crank sensor code, or both, making diagnosing this very difficult if it is done wrong.

 

[2footbraker]

So without the tool, you just tap the ring on with a soft mallet and hope the plastic tab keeps things in place? How does the tool press the ring on? Why wouldn't they just put a tab on the crank gear at the timing belt side and read off that? The gear only goes on one way. Or have a notch on the flywheel side so the ring is indexed by that? Dumb.

 

[mnguy]

It is a stupid design. I just changed the cam,timing belt, roller, water pump and a long list of other things which will include fans ,a zerostart heater, smf, clutch, transmission mount, intake seals and egr cooler. I know that the timing is dead on and I can slide the crank and cam locks in place with no rubbing. I am debating on locking both, dropping the oil pan, pull the sensor and slide on the new one and slowly tighten the bolts in a star pattern. If my locks are in and move freely and my new seal lines up with the hole and the slot on top than I will put on the new flywheel and clutch and put things back together and try it out.

 

[A5INKY]

The tool will only bolt to the block and allow its pin to engage in the offset hole in the crank end if the crank is at TDC. The tool itself is both an reference tool and a press. There is no "key" to locate the sensor ring to the crank, just presses on to the end of it in perfect reference to crank TDC if done correctly. The reference feature is built into the tool, engages a small hole at the edge of the ring.

Why VW did it this way, who knows? They do goofy things sometimes, I can think of many off the top of my head.

I remember that cheesy plastic piece the seal came with. I would not have trusted it, no way. Using that piece reminds me of a criticism I received from an old machinist once many years ago as I was making a poor choice while machining a part: "That's it boy, measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk then cut it with an axe."

There are multiple opportunities for an unfavorable stack tolerance issue to cause a fail when replacing this seal.

 

[A5INKY]

It is a stupid design. I just changed the cam,timing belt, roller, water pump and a long list of other things which will include fans ,a zerostart heater, smf, clutch, transmission mount, intake seals and egr cooler. I know that the timing is dead on and I can slide the crank and cam locks in place with no rubbing. I am debating on locking both, dropping the oil pan, pull the sensor and slide on the new one and slowly tighten the bolts in a star pattern. If my locks are in and move freely and my new seal lines up with the hole and the slot on top than I will put on the new flywheel and clutch and put things back together and try it out.

Good luck with that. A5inky out! I can't watch...

 

[mnguy]

Maybe I will line everything up with the old one on and line a flat edge up with hole and slot on the old one and make marks on the crank and the engine case so it is the same as the old one.

 

[Ol'Rattler]

I'd say go to Bentley's and read the procedure as it apples to the A5...............What you are suggesting is the equivalent to the mark and pray method for T/Bs.

Of course if the Crank Position Sensor is off far enough, the ECU will disregard it (signal implausible) and revert to the Cam Position Sensor and still run.

 

[MTB_TDI]

Someone needs to just buy the tool and lend it out for a small fee. I may be up to doing this if I had enough interested parties to make this tool cost me only a bit of money. I will be pulling my tranny in the spring to put in a SMF and clutch. I don't want to repeat what I did on my A4 and not replace the rear main seal and have it start leaking about a year later.

Anyone want to rent the tool for $25 plus shipping? Just a feeler to see if we can make this happen.

 

[mnguy]

I'd say go to Bentley's and read the procedure as it apples to the A5...............What you are suggesting is the equivalent to the mark and pray method for T/Bs.

Of course if the Crank Position Sensor is off far enough, the ECU will disregard it (signal implausible) and revert to the Cam Position Sensor and still run.

The timing belt has stretch to it and also an adjustable cam. This seems pretty straight forward, if you get it on the exact same as the old one you are good to go. Apparently that is not an easy task, no one has succeeded without the tool?