Planning to use B100 in 2009 Jetta

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Neurot

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2013 Passat TDI
EDIT - 9/9/08 - New thread following test at http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=224644

I'll be taking delivery of a 2009 Jetta TDI (manual transmission, base model) and plan to use B100 from the very beginning. I have a biodiesel business (selling it, not making it), and feel that the next 12 months are going to make or break the B100 retail market. With the 2008 Fords and Dodges having some spotty issues when using high blends (check engine lights causing recurring EGR burn), the 2009+ VW platform is going to be a major indicator of where we go from here. Should we have major problems (even a lot of people with an occasional CEL would be major), the overall market may drift off into B5-B20, with the big oil companies taking over distribution and rolling in the low blends with regular diesel. While that would be a good thing from the perspective of getting it into consumers, it would signal a very disappointing demise to an exciting business model for environmental entrepreneurs and community-scale coops around the country. If the VW's have real issues, B100 could go the way of vegetable oil - a niche product for an educated crowd. There will be a fixed number of vehicles that could run on it, with those eventually breaking down or wrecked over the years to come.

Because of the importance of this year's models, I feel that we must put our money where our mouth is, and get a new Jetta running on B100 right away. I've already told my dealer what I intend to do, and plan to document either success or failure as methodically as possible outside of a laboratory environment. I'll keep fuel mileage logs, send off oil samples, and am open to suggestion for other things that may be reasonably accomplished by a non-mechanic.

I'm also especially interested in thoughts for how to break the engine in - should I wait until after the break-in period to use B100 for any specific reason, or jump right in?

As always, I'm interested in input from the community at large, with on request. However, if you "read something somewhere that something doesn't work because of some interaction with something else" or other vague hearsay, please back it up with a link or other solid information. The alternative fuels forum on here seems to attract a lot of speculation that is passed on as fact.

Thanks in advance for any input you may have on this process. I hope I'm not the only one out there ready to get their 2009 TDI and fuel it with B100!

For more information about warranty support for B100 customers, please read this fantastic letter from the Oregon Auto Dealers Association - http://www.nwbiofuels.org/LiteratureRetrieve.aspx?ID=22764.

Jason Burroughs
DieselGreen Fuels, Austin TX
http://www.dieselgreenfuels.com
512-247-FUEL
 
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vwcampin

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Subscribed

Really interested in seeing what you find. Do you know when you will be getting the Jetta yet?
 

Neurot

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I was told they are doing some kind of stock swap at the port, and it should be mid-September.
 

Mrrogers1

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I hope it is successful from the get go but what I don't understand is why the new models make or break the bioBiz. Cars as young as 2004's run just fine on B100 and as far as clean, well it doesn't get much cleaner or greener than B100 does it? :)

This will be a great thread to watch. Thank you for taking on this endeavor and we'll look forward to many more positive and insightful posts here.
 

BeetleGo

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
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Neurot,

Thank you for doing this. I will be interested to see your documentation on this journey.

This website used to be alergic to undocumented speculation. Everyone documented with links to where they got their information, or were asked to by the members here. Today, not so much. It's kind of disheartening. This site used to be pretty much rumor-phobic. The people who posted here were good about documenting their positions. Not anymore. It's ashame. :(

~BeetleGo
 

vwrobert51

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Maui Hawaii
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2004 Jetta Wagon
FACT!!! save some $$$$ (3500.oo) for new exhaust system that will BE DAMAGED FROM YOUR EXPERIMENT!!!! not to mention the multi engine check lights you will see. and the failure of the injectors, from running ,to lean, plus the higher NOX EMMISIONS you will be adding to the air, the factory did their homework and found this to be the result of b100 use. if car is run as designed with #2 ulsd it should be next to 0 emmisions from the exhaust. but go ahead and do it if you must, its just going to be another crappy used car after you get done with your experiment. AT YOUR EXPENICE.
 

feverwilly

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How brave of you to sacrifice your vehicle. Do you need attention that bad? Don't you think VW has tested this vehicle with Bio? If your exhaust system lasts 3 years you can come here claiming how smart you are..
 

wmahaffey

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2006 Jetta
feverwilly said:
How brave of you to sacrifice your vehicle. Do you need attention that bad? Don't you think VW has tested this vehicle with Bio? If your exhaust system lasts 3 years you can come here claiming how smart you are..
Yes this fellow is brave to perform his experiment. However, there is no evidence to support the fact that he will have a problem. I feel that VW is just doing a CYA on the high bio mixtures.. They have the same restriction on the Jetta PD engines. According to this forum there are people with multiple of 10's of thousands of miles using B100 in their PD's with no problems. I have 25,000 miles on two different PD's using B20 with no problems.

The documented results tend to show that b100 burns cleaner than Petro Diesel so where should there be a problem with the exhaust system. Oil dilution, I not sure what the argument is there. The only concern that I have seen voiced to this point that seems to make sense is the one about viscoisity and the injectors. B100 is more viscous than than Petro Diesel. I am sill not sure that there has been any scientific proof that there is a problem there.

Please keep us informed about you test. I am very interested. I am in line for one of the 2009 TDI's.

Thanks for everyone's opinion and input,

Billl
 

DieselOx

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None, and it's a relief, kind of.
wmahaffey said:
snip... However, there is no evidence to support the fact that he will have a problem. I feel that VW is just doing a CYA on the high bio mixtures.. snip

snip... Oil dilution, I not sure what the argument is there. snip...

Billl
the evidence for both is here:

http://biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2290&q=&page=all [from post above]

I just read it, and it's compelling. The worst of it is, after it gets past the rings and into the oil, biodiesel competes with anti-wear additives for clinging space on the cylinder walls, increasing wear. The science is well explained in the article. Increased OCI's should help, but how much is debateable. If it was me, I'd cut the OCI in half, at least (but that's my wild speculation, not based on anything but a guess). I'm concerned because I want to run my new to me CR cummins Dodge on a bio blend, but now I'm having second thoughts.

Good luck, check in often, if only to say "I'm still here, nothing to report." It's most discouraging when these threads lose thier OP with no explanation, we can only assume the worst.

And to your question of when to start the B100: I'd run D2 until the break in period is over. The initial oil in the crankcase has a special additive package to break in the motor, you don't want the BD messing around with that. (read the article, really).
 
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feverwilly

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Most think it's fool hardy but some have 23K laying around to play with. I used to deliver money for Brinks in the Casinos and watch people throw down 1k or 10k chips that is basically the same thing you are doing but who knows some hit it big at the Casino just nobody I know.
 

Thrwngstns

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2001 Jetta
DieselOx said:
the evidence for both is here:

http://biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2290&q=&page=all [from post above]

... I'm concerned because I want to run my new to me CR cummins Dodge on a bio blend, but now I'm having second thoughts.
From the article:
Senior technical advisor for Cummins Inc., Howard Fang ... doesn’t buy this argument about trace metals in biodiesel, and the 1:1,000 ratio of contaminants present in the fuel versus that which ends up in the oil. "We’ve never seen that ash can cause trouble for the DPF," Fang says. "If the regeneration scheme is good, the ash is not an issue.
Also, Griffin Biodiesel uses some waste grease in their product and they still claim less than 1.5 PPM Calcium and Magnesium.
http://www.biog-3000.com/Pages/BIO%20Product%20Specs.html


Are you sure your Dodge has a diesel particulate filter (DPF)? I don't think it was required prior to 2007.


 
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GoFaster

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The original poster is making an EDUCATED decision. For that ... kudos. Let us know what happens. (And have oil analysis done, and tell the lab that you are using biodiesel.)

We DON'T KNOW what will happen when you use B100 in this vehicle. We know what VW's "official" position is, but there is always the possibility that they have to say this for emission certification reasons and not because it will actually break something.
 

alnmike

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09
From my reading, the longer you break it in on d2, the tighter the cylinder will be, less contamination. You need the scratching in the first few thousand miles to create a mating. Biodiesel has more lubrication I believe, this will slowdown the metal shaping and could lead to oil contamination/burning. after your piston gets a perfect seal, bio probably is better for the engine, if little oil contamination.

One test you could also do is remove the exaust treatment filter and get a tune to turn off post injection, which I believe is responsible for nearly all the containation. run this test for 1 oil change then put it back to stock to determine if the results were accurate.

And he probably chose the 09 jettA specifically because of the new exaust stuff from the regulations. In the future we are only going to get more Faust treatments, so he's determining if bio and the future of diesels go together.
And they will, eventually, the oil companies just need to come up with iffeeent additives.
 

velociT

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Not Austin, TX
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06 Jetta TDI *sold*
Do frequent UOA's and keep an eye on the DPF.

If the DPF starts giving you problems, I'd rip the POS off.

$10 there will be of some sort of recall on the DPF in the first MY.
 

MBoni

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2004STARWARSTDI said:
Wish I had $26000 to throw away!:rolleyes: :p
I'm sure you do, just about everybody wishes they had extra cash to burn. But your comment is irrelevant to this thread, since the OP is most decidedly not just throwing away money. He's in the biodiesel business, and knowing how the 2009 models behave with biodiesel is an important piece of market research. As with any business, there is a risk/reward ratio to play with, but taking some amount of risk is always required in order to succeed.

From my reading so far, the biodieselmagazine article is the most credible analysis of the most likely problems. And it seems that the problems are mostly solvable with more frequent oil changes. I'd bet that a new oil additive package could be developed that would solve the problem, but that'll be several years down the road (and probably require the oil companies to get involved).
 

validius

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I am so glad that there are people with lots more money then myself who are willing to sacrifice their expensive fuel and emission systems for science!
 

GreeningTX

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Location
Fort Worth, TX
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My suggestion would be to pick a single, well-known supplier of BD and stick to a single BD product throughout your test. One less variable to muddy the results.
 

BeetleGo

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GreeningTX, you obviously did not read all of the first entry of this thread. Neuro (a.k.a. Jason Burroughs) is a biodiesel distributor! He'll use his company's fuel.

DieselGreen Fuels, Austin TX

This guy has the money to "blow" on a new TDI because his business demands a clearer understanding of how biodiesel will affect this model. In the business, the cost of this car is cheap compared to even the simplest commercial or print ad. :)

~BeetleGo
 

ikendu

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BeetleGo said:
Thank you for doing this. I will be interested to see your documentation on this journey.~BeetleGo
Amen brother!

Indeed, thanks for the willingness to experiment.

When I bought my 2003 TDI, the amount of biodiesel that VW would cover with a warranty was.... >drum roll< ... zero.

So... I suppose from that, some would have you believe that if you ran a 2003 TDI on B100 that it would destroy your vehicle. None the less, I plunked down about $18k on a new TDI and have operated it on B100 for the majority of its 107,000 miles ...with no problems what-so-ever.

I see in this thread that one of the naysayers wasn't content with one nay-saying post, but felt compelled to add a second post as well. What is it about someone being willing to experiment with their eyes open that is so offensive to some folks? I don't get it.

Again, thank you for being willing to do this and to post your results. The effort should add to our understanding of the situation and I for one truly apppreciate your efforts. Please do keep us informed. I will be happy to post your results in a nice summary on my web site.
 

maktas

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DieselOx said:
the evidence for both is here:

http://biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2290&q=&page=all [from post above]

I just read it, and it's compelling. The worst of it is, after it gets past the rings and into the oil, biodiesel competes with anti-wear additives for clinging space on the cylinder walls, increasing wear. The science is well explained in the article. Increased OCI's should help, but how much is debateable. If it was me, I'd cut the OCI in half, at least (but that's my wild speculation, not based on anything but a guess). I'm concerned because I want to run my new to me CR cummins Dodge on a bio blend, but now I'm having second thoughts.

Good luck, check in often, if only to say "I'm still here, nothing to report." It's most discouraging when these threads lose thier OP with no exlanation, we can only assume the worst.

And to your question of when to start the B100: I'd run D2 until the break in period is over. The initial oil in the crankcase has a special additive package to break in the motor, you don't want the BD messing around with that. (read the article, really).
IMO, this is just theory as many UOA's from biodiesel burning cars show no abnormal numbers.
 

jvance

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velociT said:
Do frequent UOA's and keep an eye on the DPF.

If the DPF starts giving you problems, I'd rip the POS off.

$10 there will be of some sort of recall on the DPF in the first MY.
That would be missing the point. He can't very well recommend to his biodiesel customers that they remove their DPFs in order to use his fuels. That would pretty much kill his business. His experiment has to be with a 100% stock car.

I might take your bet on the DPF. It's not new - it's been in the euro market for at least a year.
 
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jvance

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Unedumacated Recommendation

Break in with D2, put a Fumoto valve in, and get an oil analysis every 1K. Adjust your oil change intervals accordingly. Also, have you contacted VW? They might be interested in helping you with funding or analysis. The worst they could say is "no".
 

vwmk4

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None at this time, Looking for a nice one though.
NEUROT, I wish you the best of luck with your experiment. I along with many others in the TDI Club want to know what the long time consequences of B100 is in your 2009 jetta.
I avoid any BD if I can and have on occasion filled with B-11 but that was not with an empty tank so it may have < B-8.
Again I wish you and your new car the best.
 

JungleDeath

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Thank You Nuerot.

First, thanks for doing this. I use high quality BD in both my cars.

Second, I would like to see the oil analysis put into a spread sheet. Maybe drop it into Google Doc's or something so we all could go check it out. I would make the independent variable "miles" and the dependent "the contaminant".

Finally, would the haters stop posting and just move to the next thread/forum/bathroom or something. He is going to do it. Leave him be.
 

Shawnz

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Please keep track of the DPF re-gen and fuel economy.

On D2 the new Fords re-ren like crazy, killing the fuel economy. It would be interesting to see if B100 increases the frequency or duration.

Good luck!
 
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