clove911
Veteran Member
With this, there should also at least be some sort of test data on a vehicle for the sake of people knowing they are buying something that has at the very least been tested on a vehicle.Scott_DeWitt said:
Photos of some new kermaTDI products
- Thread starter VailPowder
- Start date
mrchill
TDIClub Enthusiast, Super Secret Diesel Ninja Vend
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2003
- TDI
- 96 B4v red \ 98 Mk3 green\98 Mk3 Jetta black\ 99 Mk4 Jetta green x2\ 99 Mk4 Golf silver x2\ 99 Mk4 Jetta black\ 97 B4 sedan green\04 JSW gold\03 JSW silver
First, nice numbers Buckwheat. Nices curves too. Second, back up data is quite useful indeed. Here is where it gets tough(this was breifly mentioned already). With all the different parts, setups, conditions of vehicle(engine, injector pump injector body, cat etc), turbos, intercoolers, timing, weather, etc. It is difficult to accurately give a power gain number to a given upgrade. IBW has in fact attempted to glipse this in varying tunes, and also likes to do dyno days to help prove out products.
If anyone may be able to do it, I'd say its Charlie. The reason I say this is because he sells packages. Not everyone buys them, but he does offer them. So, if you call him and tell him what you want, he will give you a package recommendation, ie:these injectors, with this tuning, this pum p, this turbo and manifolds etc. will net you this number if your engine is in excellent condition. Only as a complete package can a vendor even come close to offering numbers.
We all buy a lot of stuff from many sources, but only if we do the Allard thing and sell a package, will we be able to hold a vendor to a number. Otherwise, we need to go by guys on this site with similar setups to us, or what we intend to do.
Will the intake gain power? I dont know. I'm willing to bet it will, depending on the setup. The bottom line is as long as the vendors are doing the best they can with available numbers, then we should then use the search function to do the rest. Too many variations. Flow benches are great at giving a glimpse of what a manifold is capable of in a given situation. With flow bench data, one can calculate how much more flow thier engine can do with or without the manifold (assuming, they have the data and formulas).
At any rate, Kerma has many great products. Many of us buy or have bought them. This thread is to introduce some items we may not yet have seen. If we want an empirical data thread, lets start one.
If anyone may be able to do it, I'd say its Charlie. The reason I say this is because he sells packages. Not everyone buys them, but he does offer them. So, if you call him and tell him what you want, he will give you a package recommendation, ie:these injectors, with this tuning, this pum p, this turbo and manifolds etc. will net you this number if your engine is in excellent condition. Only as a complete package can a vendor even come close to offering numbers.
We all buy a lot of stuff from many sources, but only if we do the Allard thing and sell a package, will we be able to hold a vendor to a number. Otherwise, we need to go by guys on this site with similar setups to us, or what we intend to do.
Will the intake gain power? I dont know. I'm willing to bet it will, depending on the setup. The bottom line is as long as the vendors are doing the best they can with available numbers, then we should then use the search function to do the rest. Too many variations. Flow benches are great at giving a glimpse of what a manifold is capable of in a given situation. With flow bench data, one can calculate how much more flow thier engine can do with or without the manifold (assuming, they have the data and formulas).
At any rate, Kerma has many great products. Many of us buy or have bought them. This thread is to introduce some items we may not yet have seen. If we want an empirical data thread, lets start one.
20IndigoBlue02
Top Post Dawg
In order for them to get a worthwhile statistical sample... of course 1 is never enough, it's going to cost more money than just a few sales to recoup "R&D" costs.
If they used only a single car as the sample size, of course, people here will pick them apart.
The uninformed consumer? Well... I don't think the people whom are going for big numbers are considered to be uninformed. They understand much of the limitations. What they are looking for are expectations of what they can achieve.
If the folks at Kermatdi had a dyno at their shop, other than the VAG-COM butt dyno & instrumentation that can log EGT's --- then I would expect some form of data right away-- because they are within easy capability to do back to back dynos to show the before & after.
The uninformed consumers...do you think the average uninformed customer would care about big HP/TQ numbers? IMO it is irrelevant because the market for these products have an idea of how things work.
Back to the burning question... the intake gains on the dyno. If you're running a smaller turbo, ie VNT-15, I would expect little gains. Heck with a big turbo, I would expect little gains, other than less visible smoke.
Because of their limitations, I would expect this information to flow a little more slowly--- so be a little more patient, or maybe strike a deal with them to offer your car & time to be a test bed for some of their products
If they used only a single car as the sample size, of course, people here will pick them apart.
The uninformed consumer? Well... I don't think the people whom are going for big numbers are considered to be uninformed. They understand much of the limitations. What they are looking for are expectations of what they can achieve.
If the folks at Kermatdi had a dyno at their shop, other than the VAG-COM butt dyno & instrumentation that can log EGT's --- then I would expect some form of data right away-- because they are within easy capability to do back to back dynos to show the before & after.
The uninformed consumers...do you think the average uninformed customer would care about big HP/TQ numbers? IMO it is irrelevant because the market for these products have an idea of how things work.
Back to the burning question... the intake gains on the dyno. If you're running a smaller turbo, ie VNT-15, I would expect little gains. Heck with a big turbo, I would expect little gains, other than less visible smoke.
Because of their limitations, I would expect this information to flow a little more slowly--- so be a little more patient, or maybe strike a deal with them to offer your car & time to be a test bed for some of their products
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I can certainly see all of the vendors using the customer cars to provide dyno numbers. Charlie offered to supplement my costs for live dyno tuning with Aligator when I did mine way back when.
This community is small, and R&D is expensive. You can help the customer and yourself by colaborating on a product. This also gives the customer a sense of pride, like most all people here seem to have behind their products/tuners they use.
People may complain about a $950 manifold, but who else has come to market to sell long-runner intake manifolds? Have Passenger Performance make you one, I bet it won't be cheap, but it may be less than Kerma. Then Kerma will lower their prices. First to market gets to set the prices... I thought that was pretty logical.
Nice looking manifold, i'll be interested to see what kind of gains will be had with a long-runner as opposed to the stock short/mid-runner.
This community is small, and R&D is expensive. You can help the customer and yourself by colaborating on a product. This also gives the customer a sense of pride, like most all people here seem to have behind their products/tuners they use.
People may complain about a $950 manifold, but who else has come to market to sell long-runner intake manifolds? Have Passenger Performance make you one, I bet it won't be cheap, but it may be less than Kerma. Then Kerma will lower their prices. First to market gets to set the prices... I thought that was pretty logical.
Nice looking manifold, i'll be interested to see what kind of gains will be had with a long-runner as opposed to the stock short/mid-runner.
LNXGUY
Top Post Dawg
A vendor selling a product should already have it well tested before offering it to the public. It's not unreasonable at all to ask for dyno numbers before dropping $1000 on a god damn intake manifold.
I have the lyrics to "Blinded by the light" running through my head right now...
Show gains over a stock mani, a PD150 mani and whatever else you can get your hands on then maybe we wouldn't end up with threads like this.
I have the lyrics to "Blinded by the light" running through my head right now...
Show gains over a stock mani, a PD150 mani and whatever else you can get your hands on then maybe we wouldn't end up with threads like this.
Vipervnm
Veteran Member
After 7 pages I thought I might get some answers to the questions we all had when we first saw the pictures. "Those look pretty, but how do they perform? What are the specs? Why should I consider this product vs. another?" I never would have thought those questions would be considered antagonistic...ever. I guess I'll have to either get my information from a less volatile forum or consider a different product line. So immature.
jackbombay
Top Post Dawg
Taken out of context they aren't, but in context with the heaping spoonfulls of snide remarks piled on top they are.Vipervnm said:
Vipervnm
Veteran Member
For those of us who are curious and not being snide, that doesn't change the fact that NONE of those questions have been answered.jackbombay said:
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T-Y
Well-known member
I'm not sure this is completely true. Jeff used my stock DP to build the jig. And we are still working through the fitment questions. I'm sure it won't be long, but I don't think they're selling these yet.burpod said:
Could you PM me what you posted that you cleaned out. I'm intrigued!
If you do get some time off, hopefully Jeff's family will not suffer too badly because you will be unable to pimp his business. Just because I did not want his family to starve and his kids to have to drop out of college from your possibility of getting banned, I sent him a new customer today.
Regards,
Justler
If you do get some time off, hopefully Jeff's family will not suffer too badly because you will be unable to pimp his business. Just because I did not want his family to starve and his kids to have to drop out of college from your possibility of getting banned, I sent him a new customer today.
Regards,
Justler
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The problem with all of those manifold isnt in the runners. Its the plenum. And the fact that even with larger plenum with a unbalanced flow/poor desingn you wont net that much. Read the intake manifold threads and other forums in this subject. The theory about proper manifold design is the same no matter how the ignition happens. Twin plenun Lehmann style is the best way to do it in a boosted envroment.
TDI club has few different teams that seem to fight against another. And for what reason. No one gains...
TDI club has few different teams that seem to fight against another. And for what reason. No one gains...
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
Post #71 is the one I have a problem with, it went downhill from there. As of right now, it has not been edited. The beef I have is that it contains what appears to be an unsubstantiated and accusatory statement. Anyhow, if the message got across and the other participants BEHAVE, I'm not doing anything further.
Back on topic. Long runner intake manifolds work by an inertial ram effect combined with pulse tuning. A while back, some of us figured out that the right length for a TDI is in the 24" range. The normally-aspirated SDI manifold is not too different from that. Being at a higher pressure doesn't change the speed of sound so the tuned length will still be the same for a turbo engine. Trouble is it's hard to fit runners that long. My thinking is that if you can't get them long enough, then get as much length as possible.
It is possible with the right engineering tools to predict how much effect runner length will have, without dyno testing. Usually it's only a few percent benefit if it's good, to a big deduction if it's bad (way too long or way too small in diameter).
The other trouble is that whatever you can gain by having tuned runners on a turbo engine, you can gain WAY cheaper by bumping the boost pressure up a wee bit. Now compare the cost of going each route ...
Back on topic. Long runner intake manifolds work by an inertial ram effect combined with pulse tuning. A while back, some of us figured out that the right length for a TDI is in the 24" range. The normally-aspirated SDI manifold is not too different from that. Being at a higher pressure doesn't change the speed of sound so the tuned length will still be the same for a turbo engine. Trouble is it's hard to fit runners that long. My thinking is that if you can't get them long enough, then get as much length as possible.
It is possible with the right engineering tools to predict how much effect runner length will have, without dyno testing. Usually it's only a few percent benefit if it's good, to a big deduction if it's bad (way too long or way too small in diameter).
The other trouble is that whatever you can gain by having tuned runners on a turbo engine, you can gain WAY cheaper by bumping the boost pressure up a wee bit. Now compare the cost of going each route ...
Scott_DeWitt
Vendor
Dosen't ideal runner length also depend on RPM?GoFaster said:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question517.htm
The small percentage gain is certainly right. Most auto manufacturers don't put too much design into the stock intakes of most of their production vehicles that's concentrated on performance. They want to build a lot of them and cheaply. They can compensate just as you said, by turning up the boost.
Even a $500 manifold is a lot of money to spend to get hardly any gain. It's all relative though, and this TDI market is definetly not knocking down doors for custom tuned long-runner intakes. At least there's an option now, and everyone can see what it does on a dyno.
Maybe it is tuned and tested, just details have not been released yet? Kerma told me awhile ago, that the ALH/tubular manifold they had was not their final design.
Even a $500 manifold is a lot of money to spend to get hardly any gain. It's all relative though, and this TDI market is definetly not knocking down doors for custom tuned long-runner intakes. At least there's an option now, and everyone can see what it does on a dyno.
Maybe it is tuned and tested, just details have not been released yet? Kerma told me awhile ago, that the ALH/tubular manifold they had was not their final design.
GoFaster said:
Go faster you have a pm. And for the record I was only rerfering to kermas short runner intake that his site has for 950. In my opinion its not worth half that unless you want some bling under the hood. I know nothing about long runner intakes and will not coment on them.
Passenger Performance
Vendor , w/Business number
Justler is right, testing these intake manifolds on a traditional flow bench isn't worth much, if anything. You will not be able to effectively measure the air distribution under positive pressure which is the state these manifolds operate under. The long runners don't have quite the same effect here under positive pressure as they do under vacuum. Best gains are found with equal air distribution, not harmonic tuning. Like Hatemi said, the best way to do this is with a dual plenum Lehman style intake manifold. I build mine this way for these reasons.
For whatever its worth I have made some great headway lately with my positive pressure flowbench. Hopefully I can this winter I will be able to get some of the research done on positive pressure manifolds that I have been dying to learn.
For whatever its worth I have made some great headway lately with my positive pressure flowbench. Hopefully I can this winter I will be able to get some of the research done on positive pressure manifolds that I have been dying to learn.
Dave,
Do you have any good reference info/material to aid in my creation of a dual-plenum intake for my 1.8T? I'm interested in trying to make something myself. I'm going to start with a basic log-style just to get some practice, but would like to do a dual plenum eventually because you just don't see it very often, if at all, except in race applications. Maybe there's a reason for that.
Do you have any good reference info/material to aid in my creation of a dual-plenum intake for my 1.8T? I'm interested in trying to make something myself. I'm going to start with a basic log-style just to get some practice, but would like to do a dual plenum eventually because you just don't see it very often, if at all, except in race applications. Maybe there's a reason for that.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
Okay, with more time to look at it tonight, I've done a thread cleanup. In the interests of certain people being made aware of what NOT to do, I am asking that certain posters fix their own posts.
Right now, I'm waiting for the owners of posts 73 and 82 to come forward and do the right thing, before I do it for them. And, I'm waiting for a certain other poster to change his signature ...
We do not have time to babysit these forums 24 hours a day 7 days a week and we are not paid to do it. Earlier today I only had time to investigate where this thread STARTED going wrong and took care of that. I can see who KEPT it going wrong now.
Right now, I'm waiting for the owners of posts 73 and 82 to come forward and do the right thing, before I do it for them. And, I'm waiting for a certain other poster to change his signature ...
We do not have time to babysit these forums 24 hours a day 7 days a week and we are not paid to do it. Earlier today I only had time to investigate where this thread STARTED going wrong and took care of that. I can see who KEPT it going wrong now.
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oldpoopie
Vendor
- Joined
- May 14, 2001
- Location
- Sheridan Oregon
- TDI
- 2001 golf gl, 1981 ALH swapped rabbit pickup, 1998 beetle, 2003 jetta wagon, 2002 jetta wagon BEW swapped, 2001 Audi TT
Its alright BW. We'll hit the dyno together soon enough.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
Regarding a dual-plenum manifold ... On a 4 cylinder engine?? Personally I've never seen that and I can't see the underlying physics behind it. On a carbed 6 or 8 cylinder it can make sense because of overlapping intake strokes otherwise, but even there, the newer OEM designs are all long-runner (take a look at a LS1 intake manifold for an example, or even a later Ford 5.0 or "mod" motor) and the tunnel-ram intake designs use a common plenum even for carbed engines.
Regarding one other earlier question, it's quite true that the length is optimized for a specific RPM. I've been playing with an engine simulation program for another application, and if you get the length right it can have a decent effect over a reasonably wide RPM range.
For what it's worth, the other application is a single cylinder 125 cc engine that revs to 10,700 rpm. It's got a stock intake runner approx 28mm dia and 280mm long with a nice bell-mouth entry from the airbox, and the simulation software says "don't touch it". The pressure near the intake valve as it's closing is as much as 40% above atmospheric. Making the runner longer or shorter, in software, and something bad happens somewhere in the RPM range. As it is, it has a nice flat torque curve.
Regarding one other earlier question, it's quite true that the length is optimized for a specific RPM. I've been playing with an engine simulation program for another application, and if you get the length right it can have a decent effect over a reasonably wide RPM range.
For what it's worth, the other application is a single cylinder 125 cc engine that revs to 10,700 rpm. It's got a stock intake runner approx 28mm dia and 280mm long with a nice bell-mouth entry from the airbox, and the simulation software says "don't touch it". The pressure near the intake valve as it's closing is as much as 40% above atmospheric. Making the runner longer or shorter, in software, and something bad happens somewhere in the RPM range. As it is, it has a nice flat torque curve.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
PP, what is a Lehman style intake manifold? I googled the term, but didn't turn up anything useful. Picture would be nice?
jackbombay
Top Post Dawg
A large plenum that breathes into the rest of the mani through a slot that runs the length of the mani for even distribution of air. I remember when he posted about it before.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
Ah ... so it's two plenums in series, not divided between cylinders. Incoming air goes into the first plenum, then through the slot into the second plenum, and the intake runners come off that?
It goes against the grain somewhat; one expects the flow velocities in the plenum to be too low to be of any significance. I can see it when you are trying to get air and fuel distributed evenly, but that's not important on a diesel or even a multiport EFI engine.
It goes against the grain somewhat; one expects the flow velocities in the plenum to be too low to be of any significance. I can see it when you are trying to get air and fuel distributed evenly, but that's not important on a diesel or even a multiport EFI engine.
Unfortunately, i'm about as educated on lehmann intakes as I am on most other types, not very much. I'm trying to do some research for a non-tdi related project and this seems like a neat addition since it's pretty uncommon, relatively.GoFaster said:
TorqueMonster
Veteran Member
Not much info on the Hammerhead turbo on the KERMA site.
Can you provide some details? The difference between the
1852v
1856v
Super18
BRM stage 2
Which one will fit an Audi A4 '96 with an longitudinal mounted AFN engine(stock exhaust manifold), and be capable of 200(reliable)hp with PP764's? I know it will need exhaust/clutch++...
Can you provide some details? The difference between the
1852v
1856v
Super18
BRM stage 2
Which one will fit an Audi A4 '96 with an longitudinal mounted AFN engine(stock exhaust manifold), and be capable of 200(reliable)hp with PP764's? I know it will need exhaust/clutch++...
jsrmonster
Veteran Member - TDIClub Enthusiast
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2002
- Location
- Red Lion, PA
- TDI
- 15 Golf SW DSG, RC3 piped, 99.5 Jetta Rocket PD150 6spd 4motion, 2000 ASV110 RC6 "Silverbullet" 5spd Race Car, 2003.5 Cummins QCLB 4x4 "Blue Monster" Jeep CRD juiced, MB Sprinter van juiced up
Thanks for the clarification, my eyes are getting badStreet Toys said:
I would bet dinner the diametral clearance on the left is .010" while the one on the right is .004"
Jeff
VailPowder
RIP, Gone But Not Forgotten
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2000
- Location
- Vail, CO, USA
- TDI
- 2005 Jetta TDI Sedan, 1998 New Beetle TDI, 2004 Jetta TDI
You have a PM
TorqueMonster said:
Street Toys
Veteran Member
I like my steak rare and I really enjoy a glass of Chateu neuf cote du pape with that!jsrmonster said:Thanks for the clarification, my eyes are getting bad
I would bet dinner the diametral clearance on the left is .010" while the one on the right is .004"
Jeff
pearse
Veteran Member
Can I get the same PM? But for an ALH? Thanks.VailPowder said: