Phase 2 fix

[MIXMAN3113]

I've gone through this thread, lots of great info...thanks all! I do have a question, and hope someone has an answer.

I own a 2015 Golf TDI SEL, purchased in 2017 with 4,000 miles and Phase 1 done. I have not had Phase 2 done yet.
I now have 90,000 miles and never had any issues to date. This past week at my 90,000 service, the dealership quoted me $2,900 for a new water pump, timing belt, and valve cover. Coolant has been leaking slowly and they are saying that the valve cover is leaking oil onto the water pump which is what is causing the coolant leak, and to also replace timing belt at the same time.

So.... I was curious if any of this could possibly be included in the extended warranty? From what I have seen, it MAY be if I put up a fight with VWoA...if anyone with experience could chime in it would be appreciated, as I declined the Pass 2 fix a few years ago during a scheduled maintenance.

I'm not sure if those parts would be considered under the long block section of the warranty or not.

TIA!

 

[r90sKirk]

the TB service including WP replacement will never be covered by the warranty - those are "wear" parts.

You can certainly try, but I've never heard of anyone getting that work covered

 

[MIXMAN3113]

That was my assumption, but since they said the cause of wear was due to the valve cover leaking oil, I was being hopeful that it may be covered under the long block portion of the warranty.

 

[petesmashh]

That was my assumption, but since they said the cause of wear was due to the valve cover leaking oil, I was being hopeful that it may be covered under the long block portion of the warranty.

Can't hurt to ask and let us know how it goes.

 

[MIXMAN3113]

th
Can't hurt to ask and let us know how it goes.

Had the car towed to the dealership last Monday due to it not holding coolant at all after the 90,000 service. I asked the service dept about the extended warranty and the long block portion of the warranty, they said they would look into it and get back to me. Never heard back from them, so yesterday( a full week from being towed) they called and told me the repairs are done and its ready for pickup. Told me the warranty did not cover any of the repairs, but said they applied a coupon to bring it down to $2500, I guess they thought they were doing me a favor , since they ordered parts and repaired the car without my authorization.

Haven't picked the car up and won't be able to until next week, I'll be calling VWoA tomorrow to find out about the warranty coverage.

I would think the valve cover would be a part of the long block. Does anyone have any clarification on on what is actually covered under that portion of the warranty?

 

[Cuzoe]

@MIXMAN3113 I can't answer the question about what exactly is covered under the long block warranty, although it's typically anything that would be included in a new long block assembly, which typically excludes any "accessories" attached to it.

All that being said, they repaired your car WITHOUT authorization? That would mean they ordered parts and repaired it at risk... their risk! In CA they can't legally collect on any work you did not authorize, have to think it's similar in PA .

Whatever was done to fix the "not holding coolant after their service" would be warranty (through their shop, not VW) so I would ask them to separate that out. Then you will have some leverage on the additional charges. The whole "we applied a coupon" seems like a Supervisor/Service Advisor trying to pre-empt a discussion about the shop performing work that was not authorized. That's not a favor to you... that's them trying to run revenue through their shop.

 

[740GLE]

IMO it takes two to tango

No way am I dropping/towing the car off at dealer and not calling the dealer that afternoon to verify what is being done to the car.

I do agree having the dealer do the work without verbal confirmation is bad mojo, but this guy has been bringing the car to the dealer for oil changes so he must have been happy with their services.

Seeing the dealer provided a quote to fix the car, it's almost implied consent to bring the car back to the same dealer with even worse issues and not have them fix the car. I bet the SA didn't even ask VWoA about warranty work.

Sadly VWoA will say work is complete, and dealers are independent of VWoA and and current issues with the owner and the dealer and work performed are between those to parties.

 

[Cuzoe]

If I'm interpreting the original (post #91, November 5th) correctly the car was dropped off for 90,000 mile service, but also had a known (to the owner) coolant leak. Dealer confirms the leak and quotes $2,900 to fix it. But that work is not authorized or performed at that time.

Then later (post #95, November 14th) the car is towed back to the dealer because it is "not holding coolant at all" after the 90,000 mile service, which I take to mean it's no longer the slow leak (that was present prior to the 90,000 mile service).

So at this second visit, dealer needs to determine (or explain) what may have caused a slow leak to progress to "not holding coolant" at all. Understandably they may just say "the leak got worse" but they need to discuss that coincidence with the customer and come to some conclusion.

That might mean completing the repairs (originally suggested at the 90,000 mile service) at the originally quoted price. Or if I was the customer, at some discount because car was returned to me with a problem it did not have when I dropped it off for the 90,000 mile. I concede the dealer is not (and should not) try to get my car back to having a slow leak. That's why we would be negotiating something.

Maybe the dealer says "it had a slow leak, which is now a bigger leak" and we aren't taking any responsibility and customer is okay with that.

In either situation the dealer needs authorization to order the parts and perform the repair, whether it's at some negotiated middle ground or for the full $2,900. Customer does not have to call them to find out what they are doing. They have to call the customer for authorization. That the customer "has been bringing the car to the dealer for oil changes" and was/is happy with their work is immaterial. My wife has never, and will never, change the oil in a car she owns and she prefers the dealer, nothing wrong with that.

They still have to get her authorization to perform a repair. Even more critical (for them) when it requires ordering parts and cost is significant. I don't know what "implied consent" is supposed to mean... either customer authorized the repair or they did not, black and white. If customer did not authorize the repair customer has leverage to negotiate.

To me, even if the work was covered by VWoA it still needs to be authorized unless all potential associated costs will also be covered by warranty (if something else is found or goes wrong in the course of the repair). If the SA didn't ask that's also their problem, not the customers. Even more so because they did the work at risk.

 

[ticaf]

Another example of why not to go to a dealership.

Valve cover leaking oil, causing water pump to leak? Really, how?

Timing belt kits runs at $300. Figure 6 hours at an indy shop, @125/hr, so $800.
Add $300 for complete valve cover replacement, we are at $1400.

 

[MIXMAN3113]

If I'm interpreting the original (post #91, November 5th) correctly the car was dropped off for 90,000 mile service, but also had a known (to the owner) coolant leak. Dealer confirms the leak and quotes $2,900 to fix it. But that work is not authorized or performed at that time.

Then later (post #95, November 14th) the car is towed back to the dealer because it is "not holding coolant at all" after the 90,000 mile service, which I take to mean it's no longer the slow leak (that was present prior to the 90,000 mile service).

So at this second visit, dealer needs to determine (or explain) what may have caused a slow leak to progress to "not holding coolant" at all. Understandably they may just say "the leak got worse" but they need to discuss that coincidence with the customer and come to some conclusion.

That might mean completing the repairs (originally suggested at the 90,000 mile service) at the originally quoted price. Or if I was the customer, at some discount because car was returned to me with a problem it did not have when I dropped it off for the 90,000 mile. I concede the dealer is not (and should not) try to get my car back to having a slow leak. That's why we would be negotiating something.

Maybe the dealer says "it had a slow leak, which is now a bigger leak" and we aren't taking any responsibility and customer is okay with that.

In either situation the dealer needs authorization to order the parts and perform the repair, whether it's at some negotiated middle ground or for the full $2,900. Customer does not have to call them to find out what they are doing. They have to call the customer for authorization. That the customer "has been bringing the car to the dealer for oil changes" and was/is happy with their work is immaterial. My wife has never, and will never, change the oil in a car she owns and she prefers the dealer, nothing wrong with that.

They still have to get her authorization to perform a repair. Even more critical (for them) when it requires ordering parts and cost is significant. I don't know what "implied consent" is supposed to mean... either customer authorized the repair or they did not, black and white. If customer did not authorize the repair customer has leverage to negotiate.

To me, even if the work was covered by VWoA it still needs to be authorized unless all potential associated costs will also be covered by warranty (if something else is found or goes wrong in the course of the repair). If the SA didn't ask that's also their problem, not the customers. Even more so because they did the work at risk.

This is mostly correct.
I have been having a slow coolant leak since the end of July, went to the dealer to buy coolant so I could top it off and told them of the situation. They said to keep an eye on it, which I did. It was a slow leak for months until the morning of my 90,000 mile service which was on a Friday, it was at the bottom fill line, so I filled it and took it out for the service and asked them to look at it, it never overheated during the ride to the dealer.

As they were taking payment for the 90,000 they showed me the write up of the cause of the leak, which they determined to be a valve cover leak that was leaking oil into the water pump, and that the timing belt would need to be replaced as well, with a total price.They never said it was an emergency and needed done now. I told them I would think about it and wanted to know if it was covered under the extended warranty, and they said they would let me know.

I drove the car a bit over the weekend and checked the coolant, all was fine until Monday morning on my way to work when it started to overheat, pulled over and filled the coolant tank and it just gushed out. Called VW and told them I am having it towed to them right then and had asked if the repairs they suggested was covered under warranty. They said the would look into it and have the parts ordered. I told them to let me know about the warranty coverage before getting off the phone. A week went by and I never heard from them, So I called the following Monday to see where things were and they told me the car was just about done and I could pick it up that evening. I never picked it up due to work, but then got a text the next day from the service department stating that the car was ready for pickup, and they applied the could to bring the total down, and that none of the service was covered under warranty.

They performed the work that was quoted to me before providing me with warranty information, and felt they were giving me a deal by applying a coupon. Regardless, I have not spoken to them since they sent the text, I wanted to talk to VWoA first. Unfortunately, I couldn't wait on hold for 40 minutes today.

I figured if get some input from you guys while this plays out. Most likely they never even checked if it was covered, at least that's how I feel.

Does anyone know where to email VWoA regarding the warranty coverage?

 

[hskrdu]

If that was my situation, I would say it's clear they performed work prior to my agreement, and I would dispute it. Unfortunately, as many of know, that dispute can go a variety of ways. I'd also say the "coupon" is either because someone realized the mistake, or to cajole you into paying with less uproar. I'm doubtful of their initial diagnostics, too. How about that $2,900 quote for a TB service? I never would have gone back. If you don't have these in the glove box, or they didn't come with the car, it's best to read them closely. There may be some updates, too.

https://www.vwdiesellookup.com/pdf/VWCourtSettlement_Emissions_Disclosure_Gen3_Final.pdf

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Approved-Emissions-Modification-Notice-Volkswagen-Generation-3-TDI-Vehicles-Phase-2.pdf

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2022/MC-10212161-0001.pdf

 

[hskrdu]

Also, for those that didn't see this thread, thundershorts had a similar situation and had it covered under warranty:

Is a leaky water pump covered under extended warranty?

Even my SEL Golf doesn't have the aux heater attached to the heater core. Hoping to add that at some point. The two electric pumps are for the charge air cooler, and heater support. The latter being in operation when the shroud is covering the main TB-driven pump, allowing coolant to still flow...

forums.tdiclub.com

 

[bmwM5power]

the TB service including WP replacement will never be covered by the warranty - those are "wear" parts.

You can certainly try, but I've never heard of anyone getting that work covered

mine was, but the car had 36K mi at the time of water pump leak, all was covered

 

[Cuzoe]

Also worth noting that in that in thundershorts' case above the dealer billed VWoA about $1500. Obviously the dealer is charging more to a customer than they would/could bill to VWoA, but twice as much seems excessive.

Bottom line for me is if I didn't authorize it my initial posture is I'm not paying for it. Make them show you a policy that says they can do unauthorized work on anyone's car and then collect payment on the back end. I'm 100% in agreement with @hskrdu that this we applied a coupon thing is so that they don't have to get into a (losing) argument with you about why they went ahead with the work.

If you refuse to pay (even if just your initial posture) I bet they will try to get it covered under warranty. I also suspect they didn't try in the first place because they can bill you more than they can bill VWoA. I'm willing to pay a fair amount for work performed, although I'm not sure they are charging a fair amount.

 

[MIXMAN3113]

Also worth noting that in that in thundershorts' case above the dealer billed VWoA about $1500. Obviously the dealer is charging more to a customer than they would/could bill to VWoA, but twice as much seems excessive.

Bottom line for me is if I didn't authorize it my initial posture is I'm not paying for it. Make them show you a policy that says they can do unauthorized work on anyone's car and then collect payment on the back end. I'm 100% in agreement with @hskrdu that this we applied a coupon thing is so that they don't have to get into a (losing) argument with you about why they went ahead with the work.

If you refuse to pay (even if just your initial posture) I bet they will try to get it covered under warranty. I also suspect they didn't try in the first place because they can bill you more than they can bill VWoA. I'm willing to pay a fair amount for work performed, although I'm not sure they are charging a fair amount.

Thanks all for your replies. Called VWoA today and of course it was a nightmare, just a normal customer service girl who knew nothing about anything. Her supervisor allegedly said the parts aren't covered under warranty. Am i crazy to think that it's common sense that a valve cover is part of the long block? and since that was the cause of the water pump and TB failing, that it should all be covered under warranty?

The long block portion of the documentation is fairly vague, and of course VWoA would not give me specifics on what items are considered as part of the valve train.

 

[Cuzoe]

It is my opinion that you are decidedly not crazy to think the valve cover is part of the long block. I don't know how it could be considered an accessory and it's definitely not a wear item.

And since the dealer's own assessment is that a leaking valve cover was the root of your problems (weather that assessment is correct or not) that makes all of it covered.

 

[MIXMAN3113]

It is my opinion that you are decidedly not crazy to think the valve cover is part of the long block. I don't know how it could be considered an accessory and it's definitely not a wear item.

And since the dealer's own assessment is that a leaking valve cover was the root of your problems (weather that assessment is correct or not) that makes all of it covered.

That’s what I thought as well. I’m going to speak with the service manager about the work performed without authorization, and the long block portion/ valve cover.

The underlined portion from the warranty documentation should back up my argument.

Additionally, the engine long block warranty shall cover the engine sub-assembly that consists of the assembled block, crankshaft, cylinder head, camshaft, and valve train


The extended emissions warranty includes parts, labor, and applicable taxes. The extended emissions warranty shall not void or supersede any existing warranty. Conflicts concerning the warranty are to be resolved in favor of the consumer.

 

[740GLE]

But VWoA needs to authorize dealers to do the work in order for VWoA to pay, a dealer can't just willy nilly replace things without prior authorization. . . . . and expect to get . . . paid . . . .

Oh wait.

IMO the only thing that stinks is that you waited a full week from hearing from the dealer. IMO I'd be calling back the dealer the same afternoon it was dropped off, VWoA authorization of warranty work should be cut and dry. I know its easy for me to say now.

 

[MIXMAN3113]

But VWoA needs to authorize dealers to do the work in order for VWoA to pay, a dealer can't just willy nilly replace things without prior authorization. . . . . and expect to get . . . paid . . . .

Oh wait.

IMO the only thing that stinks is that you waited a full week from hearing from the dealer. IMO I'd be calling back the dealer the same afternoon it was dropped off, VWoA authorization of warranty work should be cut and dry. I know its easy for me to say now.

Yea, I had a hellish work week that week, plus the service dept. said they would check if it was covered under warranty and get back to me when It was towed to them. The ball was in their court, so I was waiting on them to get back to me on what/if it was covered. I didn't hear back from them until a week later when I called and asked what was going on with the warranty check, and they informed me the car was just about done with the repair. The next day is when I received the text stating the new total and that the car was ready for pickup and that it wasn't covered under warranty. So they ordered parts and started to fix the vehicle the week it was dropped off without ever getting back to me on the warranty status.

 

[Cuzoe]

Yea, I had a hellish work week that week, plus the service dept. said they would check if it was covered under warranty and get back to me when It was towed to them. The ball was in their court, so I was waiting on them to get back to me on what/if it was covered. I didn't hear back from them until a week later when I called and asked what was going on with the warranty check, and they informed me the car was just about done with the repair. The next day is when I received the text stating the new total and that the car was ready for pickup and that it wasn't covered under warranty. So they ordered parts and started to fix the vehicle the week it was dropped off without ever getting back to me on the warranty status.

That's all on them and I would make it their problem to solve. I'm in aviation maintenance and we regularly have warranty work, or work that would be covered by the various (engine, airframe component, avionics component) programs available to aircraft operators. After we diagnose a problem we ask the customer if they have any program coverages (or go straight to the manufacturer if we're on a new-ish plane). Customer provides coverages if applicable, OEM gets back to us on what is/isn't covered.

Could be nothing, could be parts and labor, just parts, parts and the first 4 hours labor, whatever. We present an estimate/quote to the customer. If parts are covered we may order them without customer approval, just to get the sourcing/shipping process underway, as we can always return them. But we still need the authorization to do the work, even if parts and labor are covered. This covers us in case we find another issue/problem in the course of doing the covered work. Otherwise customer could tell us to eat that cost too, since they had not approved us to be "in there" in the first place.

 

[740GLE]

Agreed its on them but they also have the leverage (the car in their possession). They know many people won't wait to fight it out and try and win.

I'd be very interested in knowing how the dealer management would like to handle it "to make things right", as mentioned that "coupon" was their first salvo to placate a possibly upset owner. Biggest thing is to get them to state they did work without authorization, soon as they mention that you then have the upper hand.

 

[finkadelic81]

Mixman - Not sure if you've resolved this, but fwiw the TDI warranty specifically calls out broad coverage for the 'engine subassembly' and specifically the 'valve train.' I'm no genius but i would think the valve cover is a critical part of both assemblies.

Also per the warranty, "Conflicts concerning the warranty are to be resolved in favor of the consumer."

 

[740GLE]

Yes to the first part...
No to the second part... has to be done before 600k or the year 2050.

The emissions recall is not being done under warranty (11/162k), it's being done by government mandate. That mandate ends at 600k or in 2050.

I've started the process on our 2015 Passat.

Initial go around with the dealer end of March, "yeah no problem bring it in we can do it."

Second call to scheduled the actual appointment last week, "we need VWoA reactivate it in Elsa before we can be reimbursed."

First call to VWoA "yeah we need to look into this."

VWoA called back "yeah you should be all set, call the dealer and set it up, when in doubt your case manager will touch base with you."

3rd call to the dealer, "yeah I see something in the system but it's still not active, and oh yeah we don't do have any loaners due to recalls on them or they are all broken . . . and we've seen this take 2 weeks."

I'm now waiting for the case manager to talk to the dealer and give me a call tomorrow. A day or two with one car is do able but up to 2 weeks will be a big stretch.

So for those that got phase 2B completed in 2023/2024, were loaner's provided this late in the game? I know literature published in 2017 says one thing not sure if they've up held their end of the deal this late in the game.

As of now no CEL or any issues with the emissions system, I just wanted to get it done before we did the TB.

 

[r90sKirk]

Just know that if you have a 2015 MY car that hasn't had the Step 2 fix performed, you are better off waiting until it absolutely needs it *like a full DPF) as when that work is done the emission warranty gets reset to another 4yrs or 48k miles beyond that point. That's a pretty good bonus.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Those are my intentions.

 

[740GLE]

We're hardly getting miles on the thing so i figure why not.

The amount of back and forth I'm getting I have to imagine in the next year it won't get any easier for them to hold up their documentation.

Last phone call i had to show them the original 2017 documentation where a loaner will be provided.

 

[Lightflyer1]

I have it all stored on my phone. Handy.

 

[tdidieselbobny]

Just know that if you have a 2015 MY car that hasn't had the Step 2 fix performed, you are better off waiting until it absolutely needs it *like a full DPF) as when that work is done the emission warranty gets reset to another 4yrs or 48k miles beyond that point. That's a pretty good bonus.

I thought it was 5yrs/60k miles?

 

[Cuzoe]

I thought it was 5yrs/60k miles?

You are correct, it is 5/60k.

 

[r90sKirk]

I thought it was 5yrs/60k miles?

I probably have the numbers incorrect, the bigger point was another extended warranty is in place after this step 2 work gets completed!