Phase 2 fix

Cuzoe

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May 24, 2017
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Los Angeles
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MK7 Golf S
That's awesome, got 2A and then 2B. I do not trust the couple service centers I've visited unfortunately. As was your experience, all this should be normal procedures dictated by VW and not the service centers.

It would be interesting to see the what the Emissions Check Site says for "Modification Completed for this VIN" at each Phase...
My car (Phase 1) shows PARTIAL
Car with Phase 2A shows __________ Anybody got a car with Phase 2A and want to check?
Your, Phase 2A and 2B shows _________ Can you check and see? I assume it says "YES"

If a car with 2A shows YES then my worry would be that a car in full compliance does not have to get 2B. Maybe that worry is unfounded.
 

hskrdu

Top Post Dawg
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Oct 17, 2003
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Maryland and New England
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2003 Golf GLS 4D 5M, 2015 GSW SE 6M
We have (2) Mk7's (GSWs):
One has had Ph1, Ph2 a&b (completed prior to purchase). The site lists it as "partial."
The other has had only Ph1 (completed prior to purchase). The site lists it as "partial."

I have suggested in other threads that the sites are not the most accurate place for final information, nor are the stickers. A dealer system check by VIN seems to be the most accurate. Would be interesting to see how many owners do not have accurate sticker information, why / how dealers install (or don't install) stickers, and from where the Emissions Check pulls information.
 

Cuzoe

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Los Angeles
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MK7 Golf S
Well that's interesting... why would a car with PH2 A and B still show Partial? Does anybody have a car that shows anything other than Partial? Of course you are correct, dealer checking the VIN will be most accurate. Even though that site is a VIN check, and for my car it's accurate regarding the date/mileage for Phase 1.

Next time I'm at the dealer I might see if they will print whatever screen they get that tells them I'm due for a recall. Curious to see what information it shows, relatively.
 

hskrdu

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I don't know what the disconnect is between the dealers and the websites, but IME (and from talking to others) the two frequently do not correspond in regards to the "partial" notation (although it seems to have improved over time). The dates and mileage for both of ours is accurate. When I got my Mk7, the stickers showed Ph1 and Ph2a, and I commented on it to the dealer. Their response: "Oh no, it's had all phases done. Here's the paperwork...." Sure enough, in addition to an exceptional CPO / post stop-sale refresh of items in their printout, there was a VIN specific list of Phase 2b work totaling big $.
 

troms

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Jul 28, 2016
Location
SF Bay Area
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2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI S
There was no new sticker or change to an old sticker after 2b (in my case). I asked the rep and he said, "There's no new sticker." I don't think VW's site has ever been correct for my car. I know damned well that stupid Carfax thingy is completely wrong. If I ever sell, I have impeccable records since the day I drove off the lot. I asked carfax to delete my record, so I don't have to sue them when a stupid person says, "Hey, why didn't you ever change the oil?!"
 

Cuzoe

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Los Angeles
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MK7 Golf S
This is not related to the emissions thing. And I'll never sell the car after all the retrofits done... but did/will Carfax delete an account?

My Carfax has an odometer mismatch flag! I had the AID installed (at the dealer) and they didn't set the mileage. I didn't notice until it was too late, over 100km driven, so it can no longer be adjusted.

Had some suspension work done later at an independent shop. I specifically asked them not to report to carfax. First because I don't think replacing struts/springs with aftermarket parts needs to be on there, although 'm not opposed to a dealer reporting that replacement for a warranty issue. But second because my AID shows 25,000 less miles than my car has.

Person doing the invoice didn't read the notes, reported it to Carfax. Boom, odometer mismatch flag 😡.
 

troms

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Jul 28, 2016
Location
SF Bay Area
TDI
2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI S
My dealership wrote down an odometer reading that's about 40k miles less than actual. I called them the next morning to correct it. It got reported to Carfax anyway. Maybe I'm just an old man, but it's ridiculous for me to report to some commercial BS company to try to keep my car's "papers" clean because they are extorting me, threatening that my car won't hold it's value if I don't report to them every maintenance item, etc.... Nonsense. I'm more likely to try to fix my reputation score on Facebook, which I've never even seen before. Oh no, what will people think? I must have something to hide! I have record of every tank of gas, every little thing that I've done to maintain the car. If a new buyer is more worried about the pedigree than what they can see and experience, a close-to-new 100k mile car that any mechanic would encourage them to buy (based on it's condition), then I wouldn't want them to have my car. They probably wouldn't want it anyway. "No lane assist mode!? Three pedals? No automatic parallel parking gizmo?! Only two cup-holders?! This thing's a death-trap!"

I don't know if Carfax will delete your report. Probably not. It's their business. Marketing. If you know NOTHING about cars, spend the $100 on a trusted mechanic that will tell you the actual condition. I know about cars, and I do all the scheduled maintenance (until the timing belt replacement). If I were looking to buy a used car, I would be much more concerned about it's actual condition then a report generated by some huckster company. I would pay a mechanic to go through it and help me understand it's actual condition. "If you changed the oil and filter all those times, you should have reported it to the company so they could say you're a nice guy to the next potential owner. I feel like you may be hiding something." Feel away, friend. That's not a world I want to live in.
 

Cuzoe

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May 24, 2017
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Los Angeles
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MK7 Golf S
I'm with you 100%. It's more annoying than anything. If they will delete the report with an email or two I can do that. If it takes any more than that, count me out, haha. The nonsense of it is that reporting isn't mandatory (not that I want that to change) so you never know what actual concerns won't show up there.
 

2015VWgolfgsw

New member
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Nov 17, 2022
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US
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2015 VW Golf Sportwagen
Reviving an old thread, but I'll add my experience getting Phase 2b completed.

I have a 2015 GSW TDI 6MT that I bought in 2019 with 42k on the clock. When I bought it, the car showed up on VW's diesel site as "partial."

At 93,XXX miles, the car threw a DPF dash warning--probably because we'd done a number of start/stops and interrupted a regen. The light went away after 15 minutes of aggressive highway driving, but I decided to go for the Phase 2 fix to have the DPF replaced.

I'm glad that Troms had a good dealership experience--I definitely did not. I called the dealership just down the street from me and got the runaround, twice. They said that my car had no open recalls (it did) and that the emissions modification was complete (it wasn't). The dealership also absolutely refused to give me a loaner for the repair and offered a bicycle (!) instead. (side-note: I'm an avid cyclist and often bike commute, but to offer to give me a bike in exchange for my car was ludicrous and insulting).

Luckily, my day job is negotiating consent agreements like the one VW signed with DOJ, so I pulled it up and called VW of America. I politely but insistently made clear that I wanted my Phase 2 fix done, and that I wanted a loaner while it was completed and a complimentary maintenance and full tank of fuel when it was done--just like the consent docs state. It took a couple of weeks (and mid-level supervisors) but VWoA finally got it scheduled with the dealership and arranged for a loaner.

I dropped off my car Monday and drove the dealer's '22 Tiguan until the repair was done this afternoon (Thursday). The service advisor called me to try to get me to pay for engine and cabin air filters, a coolant flush, auxiliary belt replacement, and alignment. I declined all but the auxiliary belt (it was squealing a bit during cold starts and I already knew it needed to be replaced). The dealer eventually admitted they needed to do the coolant flush and alignment for the Phase 2b fix anyway--so I just let them charge VWoA for those.

In the end they replaced the DPF and a bunch of associated screws/bolts plus coolant and DEF fluid. They also did an oil and filter change and an alignment. No cost to me other than $200 for the auxiliary belt. I now have 5 years or 60k before the warranty is up.

TLDR: VW is REQUIRED to complete Phase 2a if or when you want it. It is required to give you a loaner if it takes longer than 3 hours and is required to do a complimentary maintenance and give you a full tank of fuel. This is NOT a typical warranty situation where the dealership fixes something or gives you a loaner "as a courtesy." No. These are requirements. Federal attorneys negotiated these terms on your behalf--use them.
 

740GLE

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NH
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2017 Alltrack SE; Totaled 2015 Passat SEL, BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat SE w/ Nav,
wait you paid $200 for a $25 belt to be installed?

i mean you made out like a bandit for holding them to the agreement, but the dealer still got their blood out of you.
 

paperthin

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Jun 3, 2013
Location
Toronto
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15 A3 TDI
That is good info... do they have to loosen the subframe to replace the DPF?
Yes they do for phase 2b. As a suggestion, something to consider (I'll admit i didn't think of it at the time) you may also want to change out the sway bar bushings that are on that plate when it is dropped. Mine were (still are) crunching under certain conditions.

Also. In terms of alignment. The dealer was very careful to put the sub-frame back in the same manner they took it down to not do an alignment. My car went in out of alignment, numbers provided, and then was all said and down did an alignment test again to show I was out of alignment, thus to offer to charge me for the service. I declined and did the alignment elsewhere. I wasn't up to speed on whether one was included or not so I could not argue.

For the 4 days it was it was in the shop i had a 2021 Q5 as the loaner (didn't like it). That was Sept 2021 it was completed.

Hope this helps someone.
 
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Cuzoe

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MK7 Golf S
@paperthin Gotcha... if they have before/after numbers that are both pretty close there may not be much to argue. I wonder if doing a pre-subframe drop alignment is standard procedure. Or if it took someone forcing them to do an alignment, haha.

The sway bar "maintenance" is a good call. I have a Neuspeed bar and bushings but I would for sure ask them if they can add some grease (that I would provide) to the bushings. Also the perfect time to have subframe deadset kit installed. I wonder what they would charge me to "throw in" the Golf R Steering rack I've been sitting on for over a year 😆.

I'm still at Phase 1, waiting until I pass 70k to get Phase 2 since it should then mean the full (2b) shebang. I still haven't seen where anyone had Phase 2a and then later went to get 2b (without having fails/faults). I'm more "concerned" with getting 2a done (no DPF replacement) and then not having any problems show up during the 5yr/60k additional warranty period meaning you've never had the DPF replaced but could be at 100k. I would rather wait and just get 2B done.
 

740GLE

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LCA bushing replacement would also be worth it "while they are in there" and an alignment was being paid for.
 

bmwM5power

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May 3, 2007
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Rochester NY
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15 GSW TDI S 6MT 02 JETTA TDI GLS 5MT 15 GOLF TDI SE 6MT 15 GOLF TDI SEL DSG
so where does it say in the settlement vw has to do all of this at the phase2 fix?
 

Lightflyer1

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Joined
Sep 13, 2005
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Round Rock, Texas
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2015 Beetle tdi dsg
The settlement spells out what is covered. Some of these things mentioned here are just good to do if needed while in there already. I always deal with this when working or having work done on my car. Labor is generally cheaper if they are already in there with the parts disassembled.
 

Adam35

Active member
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Jan 13, 2019
Location
Ottawa
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2015 Golf TDI Manual
@paperthin Gotcha... if they have before/after numbers that are both pretty close there may not be much to argue. I wonder if doing a pre-subframe drop alignment is standard procedure. Or if it took someone forcing them to do an alignment, haha.

The sway bar "maintenance" is a good call. I have a Neuspeed bar and bushings but I would for sure ask them if they can add some grease (that I would provide) to the bushings. Also the perfect time to have subframe deadset kit installed. I wonder what they would charge me to "throw in" the Golf R Steering rack I've been sitting on for over a year 😆.

I'm still at Phase 1, waiting until I pass 70k to get Phase 2 since it should then mean the full (2b) shebang. I still haven't seen where anyone had Phase 2a and then later went to get 2b (without having fails/faults). I'm more "concerned" with getting 2a done (no DPF replacement) and then not having any problems show up during the 5yr/60k additional warranty period meaning you've never had the DPF replaced but could be at 100k. I would rather wait and just get 2B done.
I had 2a done back in 2019 when my 6MT was under the threshold mileage. They only did the NOx sensor and not the full hardware replacement.
Im at 75k miles now and throwing P2459 (dpf regen freq). Called dealer to get 2b.... It's been a damn process. Dealer acts like they don't know what 2b is. They say "we gotta call VW. We've never heard of this." The cycle of me calling them, them not answering, never returning calls starts. I finally escalate to VW customer care. They also say they're looking for information on this like Im asking if there's aliens at area 51. No one ****in knows except me with my letter from VW in black and white! Finally, a full month later VW calls back saying im good to go to the dealer. Still dealer wont return calls. I escalate to their GM. I finally get booked. Chick on the phone says "no loaner". I ****ing lose it on her and send her a copy of the settlement letter, highlighted. She calls back saying there's now a loaner for me. Car goes in next week.

SCUM!

This is news to me that theyll need to drop the subframe and do an alignment after. Im just waiting for them to tell me the alignment isn't covered cause Im on BC racing coilovers....

But maybe like you said cuzoe, it may be worth it to change some of the bushing on the front end if theyre under there.. im getting a lot of noise from the suspension.
 

Cuzoe

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Los Angeles
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MK7 Golf S
I had 2a done back in 2019 when my 6MT was under the threshold mileage. They only did the NOx sensor and not the full hardware replacement.
Im at 75k miles now and throwing P2459 (dpf regen freq). Called dealer to get 2b.... It's been a damn process. Dealer acts like they don't know what 2b is. They say "we gotta call VW. We've never heard of this." The cycle of me calling them, them not answering, never returning calls starts. I finally escalate to VW customer care. They also say they're looking for information on this like Im asking if there's aliens at area 51. No one ****in knows except me with my letter from VW in black and white! Finally, a full month later VW calls back saying im good to go to the dealer. Still dealer wont return calls. I escalate to their GM. I finally get booked. Chick on the phone says "no loaner". I ****ing lose it on her and send her a copy of the settlement letter, highlighted. She calls back saying there's now a loaner for me. Car goes in next week.

SCUM!

This is news to me that theyll need to drop the subframe and do an alignment after. Im just waiting for them to tell me the alignment isn't covered cause Im on BC racing coilovers....

But maybe like you said cuzoe, it may be worth it to change some of the bushing on the front end if theyre under there.. im getting a lot of noise from the suspension.
Oh man, that sucks to hear... and is exactly what I was worried about regarding getting 2a done before the mileage threshold. As we supsected, VW probably considers the recall complete once you get Phase 2a or 2b.

In your case you have an emissions fault which is obviously covered, even if you had 2b already. I wouldn't be surprised if the dealer shows your car (with 2a) as "complete" when they look up the VIN. So that leaves the option of isolating your actual issue (under warranty) and just replacing that part... or completing the 2b which probably replaces your faulty part anyway.

These two options may come from different funding buckets (all emissions settlement related) but that's their problem!

Regarding the subframe drop...
If I was the dealer and the car had aftermarket suspension I would check the alignment before dropping/lowering the subframe and document it with the work order. If the alignment is out of spec I would send that to the customer to cover my self, no customer response would be needed. My only responsibility would be to have everything as it was when the car came in. I would then have to check after everything is back together of course.

For a car with stock suspension the dealer is likely beholden to the settlement letter and the procedures required to comply with it. If the procedure says to drop the subframe, and the required maintenance after dropping the subframe is an alignment then that's what the dealer needs to do. And they need to get it within factory spec else they have not technically complied with the procedures, therefore not complied with what the settlement requires.

Of course any other "while you're in there" maintenance that isn't spelled out in their procedure is going to cost you, rightfully so. But you should save good time/money on the labor.
 

Adam35

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Jan 13, 2019
Location
Ottawa
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2015 Golf TDI Manual
Oh man, that sucks to hear... and is exactly what I was worried about regarding getting 2a done before the mileage threshold. As we supsected, VW probably considers the recall complete once you get Phase 2a or 2b.

In your case you have an emissions fault which is obviously covered, even if you had 2b already. I wouldn't be surprised if the dealer shows your car (with 2a) as "complete" when they look up the VIN. So that leaves the option of isolating your actual issue (under warranty) and just replacing that part... or completing the 2b which probably replaces your faulty part anyway.

These two options may come from different funding buckets (all emissions settlement related) but that's their problem!

Regarding the subframe drop...
If I was the dealer and the car had aftermarket suspension I would check the alignment before dropping/lowering the subframe and document it with the work order. If the alignment is out of spec I would send that to the customer to cover my self, no customer response would be needed. My only responsibility would be to have everything as it was when the car came in. I would then have to check after everything is back together of course.

For a car with stock suspension the dealer is likely beholden to the settlement letter and the procedures required to comply with it. If the procedure says to drop the subframe, and the required maintenance after dropping the subframe is an alignment then that's what the dealer needs to do. And they need to get it within factory spec else they have not technically complied with the procedures, therefore not complied with what the settlement requires.

Of course any other "while you're in there" maintenance that isn't spelled out in their procedure is going to cost you, rightfully so. But you should save good time/money on the labor.
You are entirely right. When the dealer ran my vin, it showed up as "phase 2 complete". I had to show them the sticker under the hood, and the part number from the original work order to prove them only an NOx sensor was installed.

Ill post with an update after.
 

Cuzoe

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May 24, 2017
Location
Los Angeles
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MK7 Golf S
You are entirely right. When the dealer ran my vin, it showed up as "phase 2 complete". I had to show them the sticker under the hood, and the part number from the original work order to prove them only an NOx sensor was installed.

Ill post with an update after.
Please do. My "concern" this whole time is that what the dealer is seeing is probably correct. The emissions fix is Phase 1 then Phase 2. Phase 2 entails different things depending on your mileage, so you get A or B. Their logic being the only replace what is necessary given the expected lifespan of various components.
An argument could be made, as it has been for you, that a car with 2a should get 2b if a component fails. I'm skeptical that's how they intended it to go. But they weren't super clear in how things should go so that's where we are.

So if I take my TDI in at 10,000 mi for phase 2 I'm only going to get 2a (NOx sensor is mandatory). Now that the recall is complete I've got 5 years/60k of warranty. Any problems during this time they have to fix but given the expected lifespan of the non-mandatory components they are hoping nothing fails. This is best case scenario for VW... They get out from under the settlement with my car at 70,000 miles.

On the other hand if I take my TDI in at 80,000 mi for Phase 2 I'm going to get 2b (NOx sensor still mandatory). But now I'm beyond (or at the tail end of) the expected lifespan for those non-mandatory components so those also get replaced. I still get the same 5 year/60k extension where if something fails they have to fix it. But by someone's analysis it makes more sense for them to go ahead and replace the components likely to fail during that time. Assuming nothing fails VW is out from under the settlement on my car at 140,000 miles... not the ideal scenario for them but it is what it is.

Or you have a car that does 164k (or 10 1/2 years) with only Phase 1. Then goes in for the recall, of course it gets 2b. Mandatory and non-mandatory components are replaced and the 5-year/60k extension begins. VW is it out from under the settlement on this car until 225k 😬. This is the ideal situation for the owner but it's also not likely. Statistics suggest that something will fail before 165k.



Then there's a hypothetical... I'm at 100k with only Phase 1... emissions component x fails, car goes to the dealer and they confirm, obviously covered by warranty. If I can get them to just replace that part, and decline the recall, I can keep driving to 164k then get the recall (2b) done. That... would be worst case scenario for VW.

This scenario only exists IF the settlement doesn't require compliance with open recalls as part of any emissions warranty work... which would be quite the oversight, but to an owner's advantage.
 
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740GLE

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NH
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2017 Alltrack SE; Totaled 2015 Passat SEL, BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat SE w/ Nav,
The way I read it no mater phase 2a or 2b are complete your warranty is good until the 10/yr 164K, (greater of the two).

The only time you may benifit is if you get phase 2B at say 160K at 9 years, you might be able to squeak another 5yr/60K more, so a theoretical 15 year 224k.

When we had phase 2a done at 36k, I asked for 2a and 2b, but just got 2a. Now at 90K I haven't thought about trying to get phase 2b as my hope is that we'd go until 120K before first emissions CEL related issue.
 

Cuzoe

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The way I read it no mater phase 2a or 2b are complete your warranty is good until the 10/yr 164K, (greater of the two).

The only time you may benifit is if you get phase 2B at say 160K at 9 years, you might be able to squeak another 5yr/60K more, so a theoretical 15 year 224k.

When we had phase 2a done at 36k, I asked for 2a and 2b, but just got 2a. Now at 90K I haven't thought about trying to get phase 2b as my hope is that we'd go until 120K before first emissions CEL related issue.
You're right, VW is always on the hook for 11/160k. The absolute worst case would be pre-scandal sold car approaching 160k gets Phase 1... with 5/60k extension... then gets Phase 2b at ~220k, new hardware and warranty through 280k.

This of course assumes that either nothing fails or that when things fail VW's settlement language doesn't mandate you get a Phase x fix when getting the warranty work done.
 

Adam35

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Ottawa
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2015 Golf TDI Manual
Well. "Phase 2b" is apparently done. I dropped car off in the morning one day this week and it was ready at the end of the day the next day. rental provided, paid for by dealer (after me insisting, see earlier posts)

Of note: I'm currently going through some stomach bug. I was weak as hell when I dropped the car off and asked specifically what was being replaced. They were only going to do the DPF, not SCR and DOC as stated in the letter. I really didn't have the energy to fight them, and since I was only getting DPF codes, it solved my problem. Talked to tech, Subframe was dropped, no alignment is done nor paid for under the warranty so they just put it back to where the marks are. No sticker under hood either. Hope that answers questions
 

740GLE

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2017 Alltrack SE; Totaled 2015 Passat SEL, BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat SE w/ Nav,
So they only fixed things that cause a CEL, not the full phase 2b. Interesting. Did they change the sticker under the hood?

I'd still be looking to get an alignment done, even with "steers straight" damage can be done.
 

Adam35

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No sticker changed under hood. Im certain it's all updated online though that 2b has been done..

The tech i talked to said even if my car had factory suspension, an alignment isn't part of 2b. They just put it back to where it was and if someone with stock suspension wanted an alignment, theyd have to pay for it.
 

Cuzoe

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MK7 Golf S
My "gut" tells me that you didn't get 2B... and that every car gets either 2A or 2B (which determines which parts are replaced). So in your case, car already has 2A... that makes it emissions recall complete. Of course it would be nice if every service center/advisor had read the diesel settlement documentation but for their purposes it doesn't really matter. They punch in your VIN and it kicks out the needed recall and what to order. They just see Phase 2 and work scope/parts list. They may not do enough of them to notice, or may not care, that some cars are getting more parts than others because it's immaterial to them.

As previously mentioned... the extended warranty is 11/160k (whichever comes first) during which time anything emissions related is covered. And once you get 2A or 2B that extends another 5/60k (assuming either of those pushes you out past the standard 11/160k). Since you already got Phase 2 (A, because of your mileage) they are now only replacing anything that fails.

In service date of 2015
- extended would end in 2026/160k
- you got Phase 2A in 2019, doesn't bump the year out, may/may not bump your mileage

In service date of 2017 (stop sale)
- extended would end in 2028/160k
- you got Phase 2A in 2019, still doesn't bump the year out, may/may not bump your mileage

My car is still Phase 1, in service of 2017, extended lasts until 2028/160k.
- My plan is to hold off on Phase 2 as long as possible within the 2028/160k window
- Then get Phase 2 (B, because of my mileage), that gets all the replacement parts
--- Also gets the 5/60k extension (which could be out past 2028/160k)
- If an emissions component fails before I'm "ready" for Phase 2 I'll try my luck at having VW fix just that without completing the recall
 

Adam35

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Ottawa
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2015 Golf TDI Manual
Sounds great. My plan in about 3 years when the kid isn't a toddler anymore is to hit that giant pot hole.
 
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