Perfect timing?

Seatman

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Just curious as to peoples idea of where the sweet spot is when it comes to IP timing. Mine is currently about 70 with my new nozzles fitted, certainly a bit louder when it's cold, the power is fairly smooth all the way. Does it affect where the power is in the rev range if the timing's more advanced? Any thoughts welcome, I know it's probably been covered before but I'm interested in hearing peoples current ideas.:)
 

Mako

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I've always fiddled with my timing. I run an EGT and shoot for lowest temperature on a certain hill (school run) when climbing at a fixed speed in a fixed gear.
Opinions vary but generally it is claimed that manufacturers err on the side of caution and run retarded to allow for poor fuels etc. I have never added much more than 5 degrees of advance to a D2 motor and have added up to 9 degrees to a biodiesel motor to achieve the lowest EGT on my test hill.
I assume you mean 7 degrees BTDC when idling and not 70 BTDC?
Using VAG I see stock timing on most motors at around 4 to 5 BTDC at idle. I have seen numerous VAG screenshots posted of timing at 0 BTDC and some 1 or 2 ATDC at idle. I assume this is for noise reduction at idle and /or emissions. These retarded initial timings were all on ECU controlled injectors (PD/CR etc) and they may well have a more advanced cranking/start map and switch to the retarded map for idle when warm and again onto a more advanced map once off idle.
 

Lofty86

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Its a hard question to answer as timing depends on fuel quality, atomisation, mods and all sorts, so asking anyone thats not in your area with the same mods etc you will never get perfect timing for your engine (you will get closer than vdub or audi though i'd have thought.
Dave
 

BlownBusa

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70-75... Upper end of the graph. As long as your smoke, when and if you do ;) is black and not whiteish-blueish-grayish then your probably good. I played with mine in VCDS after setting pump timing at 75 and that's what I got. It moved the power range up in the revs and lowered egt but smoke wasn't black. That told me something wasn't right so I set it back at my tuners advice...
 

cog

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i advanced mine to beteen 65-70 so it was on the green advance line . i know a few people said a bit more adavnce would make it feel a bit better but im too worried about piston damage going that far .
 

Seatman

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Yeh I'm at the top end of the scale using vagcom and as for smoke I'm not really getting anything except a light haze. Drivbi made a nice job of setting up the injectors though so that helps, IQ is about 5.5-6 and I've knocked 3 seconds off the 0-60 with the nozzles and the timing which isn't to shabby for a heavy estate car. The one good thing about being in the UK is the amount of spare engines knocking about lol so a bit of messing around isn't quite so bad.:D
 

Seatman

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If I was to drop my timing back a bit to say about 60, does anyone think that'd give me more bottom revs power? Or am I just thinking to much lol.:)
 

Seatman

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Cool, first thing I'll do though (after the steering rack) is replace the fuel temp sensor again, I replaced it not that long ago but it seems it's died again, I'll have to see if there's a way to test it with a multimeter incase it's the wiring I suppose.:)
 

robnitro

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The mechanical timing number ex:70 will only change the range at which your pump can hit timing, as the old thread talks about. Supposedly some tuners like a higher number. The pump itself can vary timing within a window, meaning advance some or retard some. Some tunes ask for 20+ degrees btdc after 4500 or so, in that case having the number at 80 is a good idea, even though it is off the scale it does not affect actual timing, as the ecu may ask for lets say 12, and will get 12. But when it needs 23, that is when it pays to have it higher than the top line.
 

FlyTDI Guy

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Rob is correct. Setting your static timing only effects the window your dynamic timing is able to work within. The reason for setting it 'hot' is to get good clean starts before the ECU and programming can take over and control your timing accordingly.
 

aNUT

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Log group 004 with VCDS at full throttle across the usable powerband; 2000-4500 or so; depending on hardware and tune. Use the view in my sig to see if actual timing matches specified.

On a stock car, anywhere in the graph will match requested timing assuming a healthy pump. Aftermarket tunes vary on how much timing they use.

Set the timing so that it can match requested advance at full load.

I discovered yesterday that my case pressure relief valve had fallen apart, reducing case pressure and not allowing requested advance. Fixed it, and all is well, so remember to check the easy stuff before making adjustments to the static timing. Dirty fuel filters will case the same issues.
 

Seatman

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Cheers I'll do that, the filter is fairly new as I'm pretty fussy about looking after my car, still need to get a fuel temp sensor though and a new battery for the laptop as my extension just isn't long enough lol.:)
 

robnitro

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From a post by JSRMONSTER:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1018810&postcount=7
Hi,

I find many pumps that are getting pulled and rebuilt for no problem other than low case pressure. They can't maintain the proper advance w/o case pressure.

Simply pull out the case relief valve, next to the fuel inlet. It is the strange piece with 10mm flats. The insides begin to walk out over time. Just hammer the retainer back in so it's flush with the bottom of the valve. Be extremely careful not to get dirt into the pump, cuz this is right at the front lift pump. Spray with carb cleaner and use compressed air to blow away dirt before removing the valve. Use a clean hammer too so dirt doesn't enter the valve. This will allow air to enter, but most pumps will be fine and start up ok and reprime, no problem. Don't open or remove this valve with car running or you'll get a good shower.

If you're getting smoky starts, and poor performance, the timing piston isn't working. If it gets real bad, you'll get start of injection faults. If your car dies or runs very poorly w/o faults, it usually means it is running out of fuel.

The middle valve shows the problem. The right valve is fixed.

Also fyi, increasing case pressure doesn't improve performance in any way. The camplate timing solenoid controls the pressure to the timing piston wrt #3 lift sensor and rpms and load request. However, if the piston is scored and leaking badly, increasing case pressure and running bioD, with greater viscosity can make the pump work good enough to get it off the lot, if you're trying to unload a hunker w/a bad pump.

btw, the pic was from Jonathan B's pump I just rebuild that had gas run thru it. The insides were rusted, and the varnish from old gas clogged up all the passages.

Jeff

 

Seatman

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Cheers for the info, my car's running great, it's just a curiosity thing but I think this info might just be the ticket for someone else on here, he's having issues with his passat. I'll pass it on to him.:)
 

soup nazi

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Robnitro
No problem I intend to buy a seal kit from idparts. So can you tell me what symptoms would exist if the pump body pressure valve was faulty? I am going to have a look at mine tomorrow as I suspect lack of fueling.
 

Seatman

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Robnitro
No problem I intend to buy a seal kit from idparts. So can you tell me what symptoms would exist if the pump body pressure valve was faulty? I am going to have a look at mine tomorrow as I suspect lack of fueling.

Me too, I'm not sure about lack of fuel but I sometimes feel like my car is just lacking that tiny extra bit of power.
 

K.I.T.T.

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Me too, I'm not sure about lack of fuel but I sometimes feel like my car is just lacking that tiny extra bit of power.
Get a lift pump in there Niel. We can do it when we're sorting the gearbox out on my Polo. You really ought to get a tune too.

Ash :)
 

soup nazi

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OK so what's a lift pump supposed to do that your IP can't? Not having a pun but if increasing the case pressure does not increase power what's the purpose? I would certainly fit one if it is beneficial.
 

FlyTDI Guy

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If your case pressure is low, it impairs the pumps ability to hit and maintain max timing. Timing/advance is a very important component when it comes to performance.
 

Drivbiwire

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OK so what's a lift pump supposed to do that your IP can't? Not having a pun but if increasing the case pressure does not increase power what's the purpose? I would certainly fit one if it is beneficial.
Higher head pressure reduces the mild cavitation that occurs when fuel enters the high pressure plunger. With a more efficient refill of the plungers chamber, this increases the max quantity displaced (slightly) but also raises the peak pressure since you have a higher volume of fuel rather than a mix of vapor at the start of the injection stroke.

5-10psi is about all that is needed to improve the cavitation in the pump on top of the internal vane pump. Another benefit is that it stabilizes case pressures.

Cleaning the outlet case valve and inspecting the pressure regulator valve are also a good idea on these every once in a while if pressure is suspect.
 
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soup nazi

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Yeah I am about to remove the case pressure regulator valve (top of the pump) and make sure it's OK. So where is the case outlet valve located and how is it cleaned?

Anyone recommend a good electric pump to use for these VE IP 's?
 

mk1-83

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the valve is located at where the feulhose sits. with a 10mm spanner you can remove it.
I use a pd liftpump good for 7 psi.
 

JFettig

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In my opinion, the only reason to run the static timing much above the blue line is if you can't make max timing at high RPM.

High static timing shouldn't effect your regular timing, except at low rpm when it can't make low requested timing because of it, in this case it would be a negative effect, however some believe that more advanced timing at lower rpm is better, thus advancing it such that it forces it to run higher at lower rpm.

From my own experiments, I tend to disagree with advancing it via static timing. Just have it tuned properly.

read the thread by aNut to get an idea what you're after.
 

Seatman

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In my opinion, the only reason to run the static timing much above the blue line is if you can't make max timing at high RPM.

High static timing shouldn't effect your regular timing, except at low rpm when it can't make low requested timing because of it, in this case it would be a negative effect, however some believe that more advanced timing at lower rpm is better, thus advancing it such that it forces it to run higher at lower rpm.

From my own experiments, I tend to disagree with advancing it via static timing. Just have it tuned properly.

read the thread by aNut to get an idea what you're after.
I would agree with you but my own experience tells me that having the static timing set up near the top gives me more power and higher speed. I am running bigger nozzles and don't know how that relates to the timing but I have noticed since the timing has been brought back I have lost that bit extra too and will be puting up at 70 if I can get it there. I'll probably overshoot it a few times trying though lol.
 

Drivbiwire

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In my opinion, the only reason to run the static timing much above the blue line is if you can't make max timing at high RPM.

High static timing shouldn't effect your regular timing, except at low rpm when it can't make low requested timing because of it, in this case it would be a negative effect, however some believe that more advanced timing at lower rpm is better, thus advancing it such that it forces it to run higher at lower rpm.

From my own experiments, I tend to disagree with advancing it via static timing. Just have it tuned properly.

read the thread by aNut to get an idea what you're after.
Static timing ABSOLUTELY affects timing but not the way you think.

Don't confuse dynamic (ECU controlled) with the Static timing. One controls the start of injection (SOI) the other (static) controls the curve of the pressure wave after SOI increasing the rate of delivery (thus advancing the timing after SOI begins) and has a significant affect regardless of what the ECU is doing.

Static timing using a PowerPlus 520 and stock ECU plotted the following on the Dyno and in actual driving conditions:
Top of the range = +5hp and +2/3 mpg (higher top end torque)
Middle of the range = +/- 0 Neutral torque bias (as published)
Bottom of the range = -10 hp -2/3 mpg (increased low end torque but rapid loss at high rpms).

To sum this up:
Static controls the pressure rise after SOI
Dynamic controls the SOI
 

Seatman

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Yip, mine had popped out so I'll seee how it goes tomorrow when I'm out and about. Tap tap and back it went, maybe I'll get around to doing the timing too.

 
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