pd100 injector life?

mountain lion

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I've been considering having the nozzles upgraded on my bew pd100 injectors, but was told this was a bad idea due to the high mileage on them (240k miles). Apparently the solenoids are good for about 300k and it's borrowed time after that. No point in dumping money into them if they are at the end of their life. Is this an accurate statement? I emailed Drivebywire llc, but haven't heard back - they were who I wanted to do the overhaul and replacement.

A set of pd150's is not out of the question, but all research here shows the pd100s with upgraded nozzles are superior. I also want to avoid unknown history of used injectors as well.
 

poormanq45

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I've been looking heavily into upgrading the nozzles on mine.

The PD150 injectors are so tempting though. For the used cost they'll put me where I want to be.

They pop up from time to time on ebay. Here's a listing for each injector at ~$130 a piece in working condition, add in shipping and you're looking at ~$600 for all four:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/331573362022

Last month a set of 4 was available for ~$550. I'd personally go with the PD150 injectors and sell the PD100s to recoup about ~$300.

What are your build plans and goals?
 

poormanq45

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There's a guy I somewhat know, $350USD shipped he sells them for. Just ordered a set.
Are you referring to Injectors or Nozzles? If injectors, is that a one off thing or can he source them?
 

Drivbiwire

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I bought a set of pd150 injectors from a seller saying they were in working order with low milage. I sell the set because change of plans, the people I sold them to can't get the injectors to work. The seller I bought them from has good feedback and shipped them to me wrapped in plastic wet(engine oil soaked). I'm not really sure what else to do but get them tested, open to offers or other suggestions. 1
Make sure you get a money back guarantee...

I've been getting a lot of calls on these PD150's yanked from wrecked cars that are DOA...

You will get more power from the PD100's than you ever can on the PD150 with just a nozzle upgrade and backed by a warranty....

VW wasn't stupid, they knew people would try to tune these so The PD150 has a flow restriction channel to prevent chip tuning. When tuned, the nozzles flow very late and EGTs rise rapidly, requiring a very long injection duration. This causes overheating of the nozzle, choking it and further reducing the nozzle flow.

Cheap is good, but buyer beware...
 
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mountain lion

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Pete, at the risk of turning down business, what's your thought on overhauling the nozzles on some well used pd100 injectors then? I'd prefer to get the bosio 1043s put on vs using unknown 150s.
 

Drivbiwire

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The PD100 uses a DLC high pressure plunger, as long as you don't run biodiesel or Veg oil the pumps will last the life of the motor.

The nozzles with the PP 1043 nets you a significant bump in flow over the PD150 (+38% more) and gets better fuel economy, lower smoke and significantly lower EGT's allowing even higher power potential with less boost and overall engine stress.

We can repair and overhaul the pumps now, what you currently have is far superior in terms of a foundation to build on.

The PD150 is a solid injector, but it's only designed to support the 150hp range, pushing it beyond that really begins to create issues that have to be worked around. Do keep in mind that if you try to put big nozzles on the PD150, the nozzle will be throttled by the flow restriction channel preventing you from getting anywhere near the nozzles full potential.

With that in mind, you may want to consider the R783, this is unmatched by any nozzle maker in terms of flow. Because the PD is controlled by the ECU, you can tame down the R783 with a tune and get fuel economy you never would have thought possible. But you also have the foundation for power ranging out to 250+ at least in terms of fuel delivery potential.
 
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poormanq45

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The PD100 uses a DLC high pressure plunger, as long as you don't run biodiesel or Veg oil the pumps will last the life of the motor.
Can you expand on this please.

Everything I've read indicates that Bio greatly improves lubrication. If kept under B20 the gains in efficiency offset the lower energy content compared to D2.

The PD150 is a solid injector, but it's only designed to support the 150hp range, pushing it beyond that really begins to create issues that have to be worked around. Do keep in mind that if you try to put big nozzles on the PD150, the nozzle will be throttled by the flow restriction channel preventing you from getting anywhere near the nozzles full potential.
150hp range? Don't the PD100 injectors support that? I'm confused, I thought the VNT17 and PD150 combo was similar to the OEM configuration in Europe, which supports around 180hp with a tune.
 
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mountain lion

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Based on DBW's past posts, if I remember correctly: fuel temperatures at the PD and Piezo injectors is extremely hot - high concentrations of Bio and Veg oils break down due to the heat and gum up the injector causing increased wear, nozzle clogging among other issues for the units. Doesn't happen immediately, but the injectors eventually have problems over the course of their life.


Looks like I will probably go with getting the nozzles swapped out then. DBW, what's the best route to schedule work with you? Direct or go through Kerma?
 

Drivbiwire

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Sodium plus concentrations of absorbed water typical in FAME corrode and pit the internals, rendering the pumps unserviceable...lubricity is the least of the issues.

The pumps can run kerosene without issue, dual lubricated using engine oil and cooled with fuel.
 
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KERMA

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IMO biodiesel is ok generally speaking.

However... It likes water a lot so it collects moisture from the atmosphere. Not such a big deal if it's fresh. But some of the retailers have had that stuff sitting in the tank for months, which is not good.

Also, some homebrew may be sketchy (though I have never spoken to any homebrewer who thinks his brew is not the bees knees -self deluding?)

But generally speaking IMO bio is not bad just because it's bio. I use it in my ALH.

WVO... forget it. Wrecks your engine. Period, case closed. Seen it too many times to say otherwise. Oil passages in the block plugged solid with glycerin goop, gummed up piston rings, you name it. bad bad bad.
 

poormanq45

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IMO biodiesel is ok generally speaking.

However... It likes water a lot so it collects moisture from the atmosphere. Not such a big deal if it's fresh. But some of the retailers have had that stuff sitting in the tank for months, which is not good.

Also, some homebrew may be sketchy (though I have never spoken to any homebrewer who thinks his brew is not the bees knees -self deluding?)

But generally speaking IMO bio is not bad just because it's bio. I use it in my ALH.

WVO... forget it. Wrecks your engine. Period, case closed. Seen it too many times to say otherwise. Oil passages in the block plugged solid with glycerin goop, gummed up piston rings, you name it. bad bad bad.
I can agree with these viewpoints.

On both of our PD engines I changed to the Cat 2u filters just to make sure the tandem pump and injectors are getting a clean source of fuel.

My biggest concern is the relative dryness and low cetane levels in D2 available in the Tampa Bay area. In the 2014 report the highest they saw was like 43c and the lowest at 39c with an average of 40c.

Running B20 which tests out to ~51c results in less smoke, more power and a quieter engine for both our BEW and BRM.

I really wish we could get the quality of fuel that's required in European countries. :mad:
 

poormanq45

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The PD150 is a solid injector, but it's only designed to support the 150hp range, pushing it beyond that really begins to create issues that have to be worked around. Do keep in mind that if you try to put big nozzles on the PD150, the nozzle will be throttled by the flow restriction channel preventing you from getting anywhere near the nozzles full potential.

With that in mind, you may want to consider the R783, this is unmatched by any nozzle maker in terms of flow. Because the PD is controlled by the ECU, you can tame down the R783 with a tune and get fuel economy you never would have thought possible. But you also have the foundation for power ranging out to 250+ at least in terms of fuel delivery potential.
Can you take a look at this site:
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co....jector-nozzles-for-1-9-2-0-8v-pd-engines.html

Specifically this statement:
"Stock PD150 / PD130 Injectors flow enough fuel for ~230bhp safely, below are the power figures achievable safely with these Nozzles:
Firad +50% - 260bhp
Firad +80% - 300bhp
Firad +120% - 330bhp
Firad +160% - 350+bhp"


Those injectors came on quite a few different engine codes. Both 8v and 16v.

150hp is quite a bit lower than the claimed 230hp. Even if you are quoting WHP and they're at CHP, the PD150s per their claim should still be around 200whp.

Am I missing something here?


 

Drivbiwire

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Used injectors, unknown history or mileage.

PD injectors at 100,000 miles can't even be tested due to erosion in the nozzles thanks to the 30,000 psi they operate at.

If you get a set, what's the warranty on a set with claimed low mileage and unknown history?

Go fo it!
 

poormanq45

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Used injectors, unknown history or mileage.

PD injectors at 100,000 miles can't even be tested due to erosion in the nozzles thanks to the 30,000 psi they operate at.

If you get a set, what's the warranty on a set with claimed low mileage and unknown history?

Go fo it!
Hmmm, that's a very interesting point.

Ugh, this is tricky, it's exactly like buying a used car, which many of us have. I bought the BRM at 129k and the BEW at 168k. I haven't a clue of the interval on the fuel filters, quality of fuel, abuse, etc...
 

poormanq45

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I was just looking through old threads, I need clarification on this.

Is there a PD150 Europe version and one for the USA? Are they the same design and have those flow channel issues you mentioned?
 

Drivbiwire

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Only one PD150 and it was only sold in Europe.

The BEW injector has the same large pump section, but no restriction channel. Bosch / VW used a very low flow nozzle and very high unrestricted pressure to meet the tougher emissions.
 

LNXGUY

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It sounds like I should have also bought a lottery ticket along with my used PD150s.

So much doom and gloom in this thread, although it's from a vendor trying to make a buck, can't expect much less.
 

oldpoopie

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It sounds like I should have also bought a lottery ticket along with my used PD150s.

So much doom and gloom in this thread, although it's from a vendor trying to make a buck, can't expect much less.

Lol. Pursuit of profits has no bearing on truth in this case.
 

Seatman

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If I remember right from a post ages ago the only difference is the PD150 units have a right angle bend or something like that? Can't make that much odds.

I'd also point out that over here at least you can pick up a set of the PD150 injectors for about £100 - £150 whereas to have new nozzles fitted to bodies is nearer a £1000.

The 150 injectors are a cheap and popular upgrade, maybe not the absolute best but still, decent for the money.
 

Drivbiwire

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Lol. Pursuit of profits has no bearing on truth in this case.
Or mechanics just like charging needlessly to swap injectors multiple times because customers purchased used parts and the customer gets fleeced thinking they were getting a good deal. And this cycle repeats until finally realizing it would have been cheaper updating what the already had in their car.

I see these used PD150's in the shop a couple times a month. getting upgraded because they fail to meet the performance claims when all the owners had to do is upgrade what they already had....

Whatever, buyer beware, cheap used parts are for sale for a reason...would you buy used spark plugs on the Internet...didn't think so.
 

KERMA

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What I find interesting:
All the used PD150 injectors I hear about, seem to have 60k miles.

Even more interesting: That number hasn't changed since, oh, 2008 or so when you might actually be able to find 60k mile injectors. Every set has "60k miles". It's a good number I guess.

Why did the guy take them off in the first place?

I'll bet mechanics are taking off ruined/worn out injectors and saying "sell'em to the yanks, they won't know the difference. Just say they have 60k miles and the will eat them up like candy. Just say they came off a 60k car in a breaker yard"
 

Drivbiwire

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I won't install used wear items for people..... Too risky.
But you'll install used injectors with no verifiable service life or known history?

So, telling people to be wary of using used parts in their cars is sketchy behavior by virtue of the fact it's going to cost money to do correctly?

oldpoopie said:
Lol. Pursuit of profits has no bearing on truth in this case.
To be clear, we won't sell any parts to anyone unless the job is performed correctly and yes that means by U.S. and where we can warranty it. We would rather lose a sale than be associated with some hack repair by somebody that lacks the technical or mechanical ability to perform the repair/overhaul correctly.

As far as used wear parts e.g. Injectors on EBay, be sure they have a warranty if you do decide to go this route, that's the only point we have to make in this regard. We can appreciate saving money, when they don't work as promised, I told you so won't be of much consolation, if they do great!

Injectors just like sparks plugs ARE a wear item with a finite life....And the heart of any Diesel engine which makes its function even possible.
 

Seatman

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What I find interesting:
All the used PD150 injectors I hear about, seem to have 60k miles.

Even more interesting: That number hasn't changed since, oh, 2008 or so when you might actually be able to find 60k mile injectors. Every set has "60k miles". It's a good number I guess.

Why did the guy take them off in the first place?

I'll bet mechanics are taking off ruined/worn out injectors and saying "sell'em to the yanks, they won't know the difference. Just say they have 60k miles and the will eat them up like candy. Just say they came off a 60k car in a breaker yard"
Granted you might get one or two also known as scum but not all people are like that. Over here we are inundated with tdi's, millions of the things so people scrap them when there's nothing actually wrong. Other times it might just be cam wear or accident damage.
A friend of mine picked up a 2002 PD130 in pretty good condition for about £200, all it needed was a couple of bushes and a good clean. It's being broken for parts.

The engine is going in a Mk3 in fact lol

60k miles? Not sure where that comes from.

But yeh, lots of people have very good success with second hand PD150 units. As I mentioned earlier too, might not be perfection but it is a hell of a lot cheaper than getting nozzles fitted for the PD injectors.
 

poormanq45

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Whatever, buyer beware, cheap used parts are for sale for a reason...would you buy used spark plugs on the Internet...didn't think so.
Hang on hang on, are you saying that used parts should never be used/purchased?


Every other car that I've dealt with had used injectors from a more performance vehicle available used for very little monies. Ate you suggesting that the entire community of all things cars are incorrect?
 

poormanq45

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To be clear, we won't sell any parts to anyone unless the job is performed correctly and yes that means by U.S. and where we can warranty it.
Wait wait wait, did you just disrespect every other engineer in the world?

Does the USA possess the only engineers in the world that are able to provide a reliable injector? Even the original manufacturer in Germany is able to provide no such product?


Why aren't you working for Bosch?
 

oldpoopie

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But you'll install used injectors with no verifiable service life or known history?
So, telling people to be wary of using used parts in their cars is sketchy behavior by virtue of the fact it's going to cost money to do correctly?
To be clear, we won't sell any parts to anyone unless the job is performed correctly and yes that means by U.S. and where we can warranty it. We would rather lose a sale than be associated with some hack repair by somebody that lacks the technical or mechanical ability to perform the repair/overhaul correctly.
As far as used wear parts e.g. Injectors on EBay, be sure they have a warranty if you do decide to go this route, that's the only point we have to make in this regard. We can appreciate saving money, when they don't work as promised, I told you so won't be of much consolation, if they do great!
Injectors just like sparks plugs ARE a wear item with a finite life....And the heart of any Diesel engine which makes its function even possible.
Where do you get that i will install used injectors. I was backng you up dude..... Chill out.

I said that your pursuit of profit (every business should) has no bearing on the truth of what you were saying here. How does that equate into me installing used injectors? If you mean the Firads that i currently run in my own PD, they were not used. Travis never installed them so they sat on the shelf for two years. And yes, even here i bought someone elses problems. The firads have never run well. I do plan on sending them back and having you set them up with R783s but funds are tight right now.



For wear items, if you buy used...... "Other Peoples Problems free with every purchase"
 
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