PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 = FAQ)

SUNRG

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Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
PD Oil Information & Analysis

on Monday i'll be sending the lab a sample of <font color="red">PentosynthTS 505.01</font> with 5210 miles on it from our 2004 Jetta Wagon (ODO = 40578).

during this 5210 OCI i changed the fuel filter (removed OEM Bosch and installed MANN), performed a LM Diesel Purge (PDF), and changed the air filter. all were done toward the end of the OCI. i don't know what (if any) effect these things may have on the UOA results but since they're variables they should be noted.

the last OCI on this vehicle returned an excellent Elf Excellium DID UOA, and it'll be interesting to see how the PentosynthTS stacks up...
When I mailed the PentosynthTS 505.01 sample to the OA lab I also paid for delivery confirmation from USPS. That was 6/2, and according to USPS, today 6/10 the oil sample has still NOT been delivered.

It's going to really stink if USPS has lost this sample since the would have been the very first PentosynthTS UOA.

As much as I like OA and all the data they return for a very low price (easily the best deal in the industry), I recently learned that there's a CAT Fluid Analysis lab less than 2 miles from my office. I went by and met with the lab manager and he said if I drop a sample off in the morning the analysis will be done that day, or at latest, next day (plus no shipping costs). The downside is that their SOS analysis does not include TBN, and two or three of the additives OA tests.
 

TwoSlick

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Nov 10, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
2002 Audi TT Roadster, 1990 Audi 100
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Capture1,

It's really no surprise to me that any VW 502.00/505.00 oil would work just fine in the newer PD engines. This 5w-40 Syntec also has an additive chemistry and high/low temp viscometrics that are almost identical to the 505.01 rated, Castrol product. Keep in mind that these 505.01 formulations are merely VW 500.00/VW 505.00 formulations that have actually been tested in a PD engine under controlled conditions. There is certainly nothing unique about either the basestock blend or additive chemistry, in fact it's rather unimpressive compared to the CI-4+, synlubes used in older TDI's.

IMNOHO, all these warning from VW are really directed at folks who would automatically use the cheapest, SM/CF rated,gas engine synthetic they could find in the PD's. That would probably cause some long term wear issues with valvetrain components. It's probably more critical to use a synthetic diesel oil in the PD then it was in the older models, but that's about it.

Having seen these results, I am even more confident that Amsoil and Delvac 1 and Redline and Petro Canada, etc will also work just fine in this application. These HDEO formulations are actually thicker than the VW 505.01 formulations - and have higher levels anti-wear and detergent/dispersant additives.

TS
 

Dan_Ruddock

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Location
so cal
TDI
01 Jetta GLS
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Oil Analyzers, Inc.
iron- 28
chromium- 2
lead- 5
copper- 8
tin- 0
aluminum- 9
nickel- 0
silver- 0
silicon- 5
boron- 4
sodium- 2
magnesium- 229
calcium- 2499
barium- 0
phosphorous- 1035
zinc- 1206
molybdenum- 1
titanium- 0
vanadium- 0
potassium- 0
fuel <1
VIS @40C, cSt- N/A
VIS @100C, cSt- 13.09
water (% vol)- 0
soot/solids (%wt)- 0.2
glycol- NEG
TBN- 8.36
OXID- N/A
NITR- N/A
F-SOOT- 0.27
CHANGE- Yes
Does not look like catastrophic engine failure to me. VW's credibility takes another hit. But I am sure a lot of you folks will keep on worshiping VW. Dan
 

jddaigle

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Location
Denver, Colorado, USA
TDI
No TDI Anymore
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Does not look like catastrophic engine failure to me. VW's credibility takes another hit. But I am sure a lot of you folks will keep on worshiping VW. Dan
Dan,

Give it a rest.
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Jan 21, 2005
Location
so cal
TDI
01 Jetta GLS
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

If there is nobody to say not true lying becomes an acceptable practice. Dan
 

dubvulture

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Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
Tunkhannock, PA (NorthEast)
TDI
04 Golf GLS 5 spd. black/black
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Dan, you really need to trade in your 01 for a PD. That way you can really feel superior to all of us fools who are mistakenly using the oil that the manufacturer has specified. Just think, you can run whatever oil you want in it, and get some nifty bumper stickers, heck, even a vanity plate with some witty quip on it to really stick it to all of us poor, dumb, suckers!


Gotta run, I'm late for my Church of VW Hour of Power...
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

<font color="red">Pentosin - PentosynthTS 5k UOA (~40k ODO) </font>



Let me begin with the variables: <ul type="square">[*] During this OCI the fuel was mostly B50 or B66, though there were two tanks of D2 (roughly 1200 of the 5210 miles)
[*] performed a LM Diesel Purge
[*] changed the Fuel Filter
[*] changed the Air Filter[/list]I do not know what, if any, effects these items may have had on the UOA.

Observations: <font color="red">Wear Metals</font> - Iron, Lead and Copper are all slightly up from the previous Elf 505.01 UOA. [In this thread the effects of detergent additives are discussed and it seems that the super-cleaning LM Diesel Purge process may have caused the slightly elevated wear metals.]

Fe <font color="red">Wear Rate</font> is 4.03ppm, which is low, the second lowest wear rate recorded for OEM PDs. The lowest was the previous UOA from this vehicle using Elf Excellium DID 505.01 - 3.15ppm. If the 4.03 represents an elevated wear rate due to the LM Diesel Purge - then without the LM Diesel Purge the PentosynthTS 505.01 may have returned a wear rate as good or better than the Elf 505.01.

<font color="red">Viscosity</font> slipped below the 40 weight range (12.5-16.3) to 12.34, but the starting viscosity was 14.24, so the viscosity change was only 1.9 cSt which is considered normal.

I bet that if this oil was left in for 10k, the 10k UOA would have an even lower wear rate and the oil would thicken slightly (to above 12.5).

<font color="red">Soot</font> level is very low at 0.22%

<font color="red">TBN</font> is good at 8.67 (slightly lower than the previous 5k UOA of 9.12 - but two TBNs within 0.45 of one another are statistically equivalent, since TBN testing is not as precise at other UOA measures).

<font color="red">LAP</font> [Lubricating Additive Package: the sum in PPM of an oil's Boron, Magnesium, Calcium, Phosphorus and Zinc content] was still very high at 5356 (VOA 5449), the previous UOA LAP was 4712 (VOA 5592).

The <font color="red">Nitration and Oxidation</font> values are off the charts, but I think this is a result of a change in testing equipment. I've seen a few recent UOAs from CTC that had N/A listed for the Nitration and Oxidation values.

<font color="red">The Problem</font> - currently these are the only OEM filtered Elf and Pentosin UOAs. We should not even begine to come to conclusions regarding these oils until these UOA results / trends are repeated and confirmed with at least 4 more UOAs per oil (and even that is a small sample size).

Cheers
 

TwoSlick

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Joined
Nov 10, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
2002 Audi TT Roadster, 1990 Audi 100
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

The "LAP" summation is not at all useful, as lubricant additives still show up in their elemental form even after they've become inactive from performing their function.

The exceptions to this are boron (in the form of borate esters) and MoDTC (molybdenum dithocarbamate). Depletion of these friction modifier/anti-wear additives can be used to roughly determine when the lubricant has reached the end of its' useful service life....

Note: CTC/OAI is currently re-calibrating their FTIR (fourier transform infared radiography) equipment, used to measure Oxidation & Nitration - hence the off-scale value. Given the EOT viscosity and excellent TBN retention, the actual Oxid. and NOx levels in this sample are of no concern.
 

SUNRG

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Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

The "LAP" summation is not at all useful, as lubricant additives still show up in their elemental form even after they've become inactive from performing their function.
So what could cause the ~900ppm LAP drop in the ELF UOA, whereas the Pentosin stayed within 90ppm of its VOA LAP?

Thanks for the update on CTCs FTIR equipment. What's EOT? My guess is "essentially on target"?


From your experience TwoSlick, does the hypothesis that "<font color="blue">a super-cleaning fuel system treatment like LM Diesel Purge could result in a increase in UOA indicated wear metals</font>" seem plausible?

I'm within 1500 miles of the next UOA in my Golf, which will be the first ELF Evolution CRV 506.01 UOA. The previous UOA in the Golf was from Motul 506.01 - so this will provide an interesting head-to-head comparison.
 

milehighassassin

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Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Location
Fort Collins, CO
TDI
2005 Golf TDi PD, Reflex Silver
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Here is my first oil sample from a 2005 Golf TDI PD.
I used like three tanks of B20 in this, factory fill oil and .5 liter of VAG 501.05 oil.

 

SUNRG

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Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

the nice thing about having a UOA done on the factory fill is that the following UOAs will look great by comparison


what oil did you put in?
 

SUNRG

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Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

i've updated the UOA Spreadsheet to include the four most recent UOAs and i've added wear rate comparisons between each of the different oils.

Click here to check it out!

Cheers
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

i just added spicy's info to the spreadsheet and updated the averages. this UOA looks good! Click here to view the updated spreadsheet!

while this UOAs viscosity is in the 30 weight range i don't feel this is an issue. according to Caterpillar's "OIL and your engine" booklet: <ul type="square">An oil that has experienced a 3 centistoke (viscosity) change has been used beyond its useful life...[/list]for the Motul 505.01, 11.7 represents only a 1.85 cSt change from a VOA cSt of 13.55.

another item worth touching on is the 5k OCIs. every lab analysis that has come back with a slight viscosity drop has been a 5k UOA. the 505.01 oils are engineered for 10k UOAs and that every 10k UOA has come back "in viscosity" supports adhering to the VWAG specified 10k UOAs.

additionally, <font color="red">TDI engines will wear less during one 10k UOA than during two 5k UOAs</font>. From TwoSlick:<ul type="square"> Wear rates of Iron and Chrome actually increase for the first 1000 miles after an oil change. The reason for this is that the AW additives in the new oil are quite aggressive and they displace the AW films on wearing surfaces. It takes at least 1000 miles for these stable films to be re-established ... the 5000 mile analysis is more effected by this higher initial wear.[/list]i know some think they're pampering their TDI by changing the oil at 5k intervals, i respect their decision and i'm not being critical - but lab analyses and SAE Technical Paper #2003-01-3119 referenced by TwoSlick, seem to indicate that 5k OCIs result in increased wear when compared with 10k OCIs.

so, IMO, we will begin seeing lower wear rates (2 to <4ppm) as <u>10k UOAs</u> start coming back from 1+ year old PDs with 25-75k ODOs.
 

Ferrari

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Location
Mississauga, ON
TDI
2005 Golf GLS TDI
PD Oil Information & Analysis

Vehicle: 2005 Golf 1.9L PD-TDI, 5-speed, CAT fuel filter, ProVent CCV filter. 23,000KM currently on engine, oil used between 10,000KM and 23,000KM.
Oil: Elf Excellium DID, Mann filter, 0.25L top-up oil. 13,000KM interval. 1st oil change at 5,000KM with Elf Excellium DID, 2nd oil change at 10,000KM with same oil (current analysis).
Fuel: 90% truck diesel, 10% Sunoco Gold, Fuel Power added in every tank
Driving conditions: Daily driven, 75% highway, 25% city. Always warmed up properly, once car warmed up frequent 3000RPM+ shifts, 3 or 4 times a week 4000RPM+ shifts.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
CONTAMINATION

Silicon 11
Potassium 3.0
Sodium 2.1
Fuel (%) 1.0
Glycol NEG
Water (%) <0.1
Soot (%) 0.8
Sulfation 56
Nitration 73

OIL CONDITION

Boron 1.7
Barium 0.5
Calcium 2849
Magnesium 12
Molybdenum 0.7
Sodium 2.1
Phosphorus 651
Sulfur 3462
Zinc 888
Visc@40°C ---
Visc@100°C 12.7
Oxidation 59
TAN ---
TBN 6.50

WEAR

Iron 66
Nickel 0.9
Chromium 1.9
Titanium 0.1
Copper 8.0
Aluminum 9.6
Tin 1.0
Lead 4.1
Silver 0.0
</pre><hr />
 

Ferrari

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Location
Mississauga, ON
TDI
2005 Golf GLS TDI
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Question for the knowledgeable ones: VW said that I might have a headgasket leak. I have absolutely no coolant in the oil as the analysis shows, nor is the coolant changing color (indicative of dirty oil mixing with coolnat). Could the headgasket leak and have no cross-contamination of oil and coolant?
 

The Critic

Active member
Joined
Jul 22, 2005
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
TDI
None
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis



This car does not belong to me, but belongs to Michael Sparks.

Discussion of this UOA on BITOG

Very interesting UOA.

Setup is Amsoil TS Air Filter, with Mann Cartridge Oil Filter, and BE-100 Bypass Filter. 1/2 quart make-up oil, no filter changes, and mostly highway driving.

Lab suggested changing oil and filters.

My take: IMO, the Al, Fe, Cr, Ni, and Na are all elevated because of some dirt ingestion. The dirt is possibly depleting the TBN, bumping up the viscosity, and raising the Nitration levels. The Si is probably low because the Bypass Filter is filtering out the dirt, but the presence of the Ni, and the elevated Al, Fe, Cr, and Na levels IMO indicate some type of dirt ingestion. When the nox rises, the oxidation usually follows the same trend, which may be causing the excessive thickening in this case, in addition to the classic Amsoil thickening which should be contained by the bypass filter's ability to control oxidation.

Car is currently running Amsoil AFL 5w-40 with the Mann Cartridge Oil Filter but NO bypass. The stock paper air filter has been reinstalled, and a sample will be taken within 5000 miles.

Michael
 

The Critic

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Jul 22, 2005
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
TDI
None
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Ferrari,
Your UOA only shows 2ppm of Na, and 3ppm of K. Some oils in its virgin state CAN sometimes contain 1-2ppm of each, thus its too early to tell but I doubt that theres a coolant leak.

Trends are VERY important if you want to detect small coolant leaks. If you see the Na or K reading go up within the next few UOAs, then you'll know that you may have an issue. Using the same lab helps a lot, since there may be some variations between labs.

Michael
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

milehighassasin - your wear metals are moving in the right direction, and fast! Viscosity is great too.

Good UOA, and I'm sure the 20k Elf 505.01 UOA will continue the trend.

I'm not sure how Blackstone defines wear-in, but your wear rates will continue to steadily drop with each UOA for some time. Eventually, your Fe wear rate will most likely level off in the 2 to 4ppm / 1000 miles range (during 10k OCIs).

Ferrari - Your UOA looks good too. Since this UOA is from your third OCI in just ~15k miles, and you drive mostly highway, I would have expected the wear particle counts to be a little lower - but they're just fine and well within the range we've seen for PDs in your ODO range.

What ever happened with the headgasket? Was it leaking, or are there any other issues?

I'll update the spreadsheet to include both Ferrari's and milehighassasin's UOA results at the beginning of next week.

wanmichael - It'll definitely be interesting to see what Michael Sparks' next UOA looks like. I read the comments at BITOG too. I'm interested in bypass filtration, but there have been a few posts in recent months regarding bypass problems that have resulted in heavy wear in TDIs.

Also, VWAG claims 506.0 & 507.00 oils reduce wear and hold up so well that they function optimally for up to 30,000 mile OCIs using stock OEM filtration.

I am testing 506.01 oils for five OCIs in our PDs, and before long most everyone will be using 504.00/507.00 oils in new VW & Audi - so we should have a good bit of data to either verify or discredit those VWAG claims in the next year.
 

The Critic

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Jul 22, 2005
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
TDI
None
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

SUNRG,
Since the dirt ingestion issue has been corrected, I expect the next UOA, taken at 5K, to be normal.

I think that 0w-30 will deliver equally as good wear on this engine while optimizing fuel efficiency.

Look for the next UOA in a few months, with Amsoil AFL 5w-40 and NO bypass.

Michael
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

i extracted two used oil samples (using an oil sampling vaccuum pump) of Elf Evolution CRV 506.01 today. the oil samples are from my 2004 Golf TDI and have 5003 miles on them (from 16178 to 21181).

on monday i'll send one sample to the OAI/CTC lab, and i'll drop the second sample off at my local CAT lab. the CTC via mail sample will take a couple weeks to come back, but the CAT SOS analysis should be finished and in my hands in one day (the lab is just two miles from my office).

these will be the very first Elf 506.01 used oil analyses, <u>and</u> it will be intersting to see how similar or dis-similar the different lab results are. i was very careful to use exactly the same sampling technique to extract each sample, so the ONLY variable would be the labs.
 

milehighassassin

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Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Location
Fort Collins, CO
TDI
2005 Golf TDi PD, Reflex Silver
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

i extracted two used oil samples (using an oil sampling vaccuum pump) of Elf Evolution CRV 506.01 today. the oil samples are from my 2004 Golf TDI and have 5003 miles on them (from 16178 to 21181).

I was thinking of doing this as well, to see the difference between labs.
I read an article that compared 5 different labs, Blackstone was rated the highest quality. This was mostly based on consistancy.


on monday i'll send one sample to the OAI/CTC lab, and i'll drop the second sample off at my local CAT lab. the CTC via mail sample will take a couple weeks to come back, but the CAT SOS analysis should be finished and in my hands in one day (the lab is just two miles from my office).

these will be the very first Elf 506.01 used oil analyses, <u>and</u> it will be intersting to see how similar or dis-similar the different lab results are. i was very careful to use exactly the same sampling technique to extract each sample, so the ONLY variable would be the labs.
 

Ferrari

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Location
Mississauga, ON
TDI
2005 Golf GLS TDI
Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Vehicle:2004 Golf 1.9L PD-TDI, 5-speed, CAT fuel filter, ProVent CCV filter. 30,000KM currently on engine, oil used between 18,000KM and 30,000KM.
Oil: Elf Excellium DID, Mann filter, 0.25L top-up oil. 12,000KM interval. 1st oil change at 5,000KM with Elf Excellium DID, 2nd oil change at 10,000KM with same oil, and 3rd oil change at 18,000KM (current analysis).
Fuel: 80% Sunoco Gold, 20% truck diesel, Fuel Power added in every tank
Driving conditions: Daily driven, 50% highway, 50% city. Almost always shfted around 3000RPM whether hot or cold (my sister can't grasp the concept of warming up the car first),3 or 4 times a week 4000RPM+ shifts (when I drive it
).

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>CONTAMINATION

Silicon 5.5
Potassium 4.2
Sodium 0.0
Fuel (%) 0.0
Glycol NEG
Water (%) <0.1
Soot (%) 0.6
Sulfation 59
Nitration 82

OIL CONDITION

Boron 0.7
Barium 0.1
Calcium 2820
Magnesium 8.9
Molybdenum 0.7
Sodium 0.0
Phosphorus 747
Sulfur 3499
Zinc 954
Visc@40°C ---
Visc@100°C 12.3
Oxidation 63
TAN ---
TBN 4.82

WEAR

Iron 44
Nickel 1.6
Chromium 2.1
Titanium 0.1
Copper 9.1
Aluminum 8.2
Tin 0.5
Lead 4.1
Silver 0.1</pre><hr />
 

GMARK

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Location
Back from Iraq!
TDI
2004 Jetta GL Reflex Silver 5 speed. Ventectomy, coolant migration mod, Hella Comets, FK air ducts.
Re: PD Oil Information & Analysis

Here's my first UOA for this car. Thanks to George and the good folks at AV Lube for the analysis.
2004 VW Jetta TDI PD
Miles on car: 40,259
Miles on oil: 10,205
Oil: Motul Technosynthese 505.01 spec 5W-40

Iron 68
Chromium 2
Lead 3
Copper 11
Tin 0
Aluminum 8
Nickel 1
Silver 0
Silicon 4
Boron 1
Sodium 8
Potassium 5
Magnesium 10
Calcium 2632
Phosphorus 944
Zinc 1034
Molybdenum 0
Fuel A
Water <0.1
Glycol N
Viscosity @100c 14.3
Soot 0.6
Oxidation 15.00
Nitration 10.00

Comments: "Wear and contamination levels appear normal. No corrective action indicated by tests performed. Continue normal PM and sample interval."

My comments: I'm wondering about the Iron and Copper levels. TBN is very high too. Is the 100c visc the result of soot thickening? No makeup oil was added/needed during the test interval. Oil consumption has been zero since 20k miles. Fuel used was almost exclusively BP #2 diesel with 4oz. Stanadyne Performance Formula per tankful. This car delivers exceptional mileage even for a TDI. I normally get 55 miles per gallon, but have achieved 60 with very conservative driving habits.
I welcome any comments from the gallery at large.
Thanks
 

SUNRG

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Location
Roanoke, VA
TDI
None currently. Previously owned 04 Golf TDI & 05 Passat GLS Wagon TDI
PD-TDI (2004 & later) Oil Information & Analyses

i've updated the first post in this thread [click here to view] with a bunch of good info.

i'm behind on updating the spreadsheet, but should be able to have that done at the beginning of this coming week.

sorry i have not been commenting on and posting all the UOAs that have been posted and emailed to me, i've been overwhelmingly busy lately, but i'll try to do better


i have glanced at all the UOAs, and all results are within the ranges we've seen for PDs in the corresponding ODO ranges. i <u>will</u> comment in more detail early next week.

cheers
 

myke_w

Vendor
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Cbus, Ohio
TDI
03 TDI Wagon
PD-TDI (2004 & later) Oil Information & Analyses

any more news on 507.01 and it's properties? Is it similar to 506.01? is 506 better? I noticed that the 507.01 is cheaper at tdiparts.com
I see alot of 506.01 testing but not much 507, It's fuel conserving too right? what am I missing?
 
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