PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 = FAQ)

[SUNRG]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

ELF - Excellium DID 505.01 5k UOA (Used Oil Analysis)

this is from my wife's Jetta. i was concerned that this UOA would have relatively high wear metals because i ran it hard (extended driving at 90-110mph during a road trip) but it came up with the lowest PD wear rates to date (Fe of 3.15ppm / 1000 miles). with nearly 35k on the ODO, this PD-TDI is further along in the break-in process than nearly all of the other PD UOAs - so despite the hard driving - it's lower wear metals are to be expected. that said, kudos to Elf Excellium DID for being the first PD oil to shatter the "Fe 4 ppm / 1000 mile wear rate barrier". i'm sure as more PDs approach 40 and 50k, Fe wear rates of 2-4ppm / 1000 miles will become more common.

TBN is <u>very strong</u> at 9.12 (down less than one point from a VOA of 10.20). nitration and oxidation are both very low (good) and viscosity is in grade at 12.67. this is the first UOA i've done on our Jetta, so it will serve as the benchmark against which future UOAs in this vehicle will be judged.

Fuel: ~2200 miles winter D2 with no additives, ~2800 miles B60

 

[SUNRG]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

4/8 0:48am Correction: the "Castrol sheared to 20 weight during a 10k OCI" turned out to be a typo by Blackstone. SUS WAS 68.2 which is in the 40 weight viscosity range. <ul type="square"> 4 of 6 - 5k UOAs tested as 30 weight
1 of 1 - 6.7k UOAs tested as borderline 30/40 weight
2 of 2 - 10k UOAs tested as 40 weight [/list]

 

[diezelwiezel]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

SUNRG,

I have the results from the 10K UOA on the Castrol 505.01, could not post the data sheet as I now apparently need a new scanner, so I will muddle through it.

'04 GL Golf 5m
fuel- D2
time on oil- 9987 miles
time on unit- 14978 miles

<font color="red">Oil Analyzers, Inc. </font>
iron- 65
chromium- 5
lead- 3
copper- 10
tin- 0
aluminum- 19 A
nickel- 0
silver- 0
silicon- 42
boron- 1
sodium- 8
magnesium- 35
calcium- 2962
barium- 0
phosphorous- 814
zinc- 955
molybdenum- 0
titanium- 0
vanadium- 0
potassium- 0
fuel <1%
<font color="red">VIS @100C, cst- 13.06 </font>
water- 0
soot/solids- 0.6%
glycol- NEG
TBN- 7.93
OXID- 7.0
NITR- 12.0
F-SOOT- 0.66
CHANGE- yes

Analysis recommendations: normal for break-in, change oil and filters. If not done when sampled, resample at next regular interval.

I read whitedog's post where he noted driving conditions and have to agree that it would contribute to different results on the same oil. My are as follows; 95% highway/5% city. I still have 5 liters of Castrol 505.01 left, but presently refilled with ELF Excellium DID, if all goes well and Castrol holds up the following OCI will be with that. Goodluck Veedubing.

 

[SUNRG]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

This is a unique UOA, in that it is the first to go beyond the recommended drain interval by 5000 miles (the manual specifies oil changes at 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, etc.).

Even so, the UOA looks good. Wear metals are fine except Al, but considering this sample was in service from ~5k to ~15k, I would not be concerned. If the next UOA also has an elevated Al level, then it may be something worth looking into - but I doubt that's going to be the case.

TBN is good, and the item of utmost interest, <font color="red">viscosity is literally unchanged after 10k (UOA 13.06 vs VOA 13.26)</font>.

Since all (3 of 3) Castrol 505.01 UOAs with 10k miles on them have had good (in spec.) UOA viscosities - this indicates that the viscosity concerns expressed regarding the 5k Castrol UOAs on low milesage PD-TDIs may not be applicable on vehicles with 10k+ on the odometer.

Results have been added to the spreadsheet.:
http://sustainablepower.net/TDI/OA/PD_Oil_Analysis_Spreadsheet.htm

Thanks for contributing Greg!

 

[LightningTDI]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

So why do you suppose it is different at less than 10k?

 

[whitedog]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

Wild assed guess based on beer:

In the first 10,000 miles, the contact points of the cam and injector are a highly defined, knife-edge. After that it becomes worn down just enough that it doesn't shear the oil.

I have no data to back this up, I'm just throwing it out there as an idea.

 

[SUNRG]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

Pentosin - PentosynthTS 505.01 VOA (Virgin Oil Analysis)

LAP [Lubricating Additive Package: the sum in PPM of an oil's Boron, Magnesium, Calcium, Phosphorus and Zinc content]: <ul type="square">Elf 506.01 = 6093
Motul 506.01 = 5628
Elf 505.01 = 5592
<font color="red">Pentosin 505.01 = 5449</font>
Castrol 505.01 = 5211
Motul 505.01 = 5049[/list]Viscosity:<ul type="square">
[5w-40]
Elf 505.01 = 14.80
<font color="red">Pentosin 505.01 = 14.24</font>
Motul 505.01 = 13.55
Castrol 505.01 = 13.26
--------------------
[0w-30]
Elf 506.01 = 10.85
Motul 506.01 = 9.36
[/list]TBN:<ul type="square">Elf 506.01 = 10.67
<font color="red">Pentosin 505.01 = 10.28</font>
Elf 505.01 = 10.20
Motul 506.01 = 9.69
Motul 505.01 = 9.25
Castrol 505.01 = 9.12 [/list] Click here to view all VOA and UOA data.

In our '04 PD-TDIs we have the PentosynthTS (505.01) in our Jetta and Elf Evolution CRV (506.01) in our Golf - so initial UOAs for both oils are not far off.

Cheers!

 

[phaser]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

What is TBN?

 

[mazot]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

What is TBN?

FAQs: Oil Analysis 101

m.

 

[phaser]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

Excellent, Thanks.

 

[SUNRG]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

Castrol - 505.01 UOA [10k on Oil, 30k ODO]: MasterMarine's 04 Jetta

Viscosity is well within spec at 13.54 (VOA = 13.26) - 100% (4 of 4) of the 10k Castrol 505.01 UOA viscosities have been in grade.

Wear metals are in the range of what we've seen, but wear rates are slightly higher than average. IMO - this is no reason for concern, and I expect a significant drop in the next OCIs UOA indicated wear metals. If that does not occur, I personally would try one of the other PD oils.

A TBN at the end of the OCI that is greater than 1/2 of the the VOA TBN (9.12) is what we hope to see, so this UOAs TBN of 5.0 is OK.

Click here to view the spreadsheet with all UOA results. Note: use the <font color="red">wear rate</font> value to compare wear metals from different UOAs because this value accounts for the different OCI lengths.

 

[SUNRG]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

After the flurry of lab results we had up to 4/14, eight days with no PD UOAs to chat about is weird...

Anyone have samples at a lab? Or coming to the end of an OCI and planning on analysis?

I think tomo366 will have another Motul UOA from his Passat very soon.

Have a great weekend! - Cheers

 

[Drivbiwire]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

I can't wait for the M1 Truck and SUV samples from the PD engines to come in, I think we will find the wear metals better than the 506.01's and also less shear dur to the better base stock oils compared to the 505.01 oil results.

DB

 

[AndyH]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

Thanks to everyone that's been contributing to this project!

I'm happy to continue to provide test kits for those that don't have a connection to AMSOIL. Wholesale for the kits is $15.20. They're shipped free from the closest US Warehouse and are normally 2-3 days away by UPS. The only additional fee is your local sales tax and the $.60 that Paypal takes for each kit. I'd appreciate it if you would transfer $16.90 via Paypal, or a check/money order for $16.30 for each kit.

The best way to request a kit is to e-mail me at ahecker@zamslube.com, or Paypal me at the same address with your UPS shipping address. You'll receive a UPS QuantumView notice with tracking info.

Transparency: There is no commission on these kits. I don't make any money from this project. To this point, I've been giving kits away, and paying for shipping, tax, and PayPal fees. And you've had to wait for me to get kits to my local pack/ship place. Shipping kits directly from an AMSOIL warehouse saves us both time and money.

Thanks again!
Andy

 

[jddaigle]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

Anyone have samples at a lab? Or coming to the end of an OCI and planning on analysis?

I'll be sending in a sample from my 10,000mi change soon. Castrol 505.01 w/5000mi on the oil.

 

[whitedog]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

Anyone have samples at a lab? Or coming to the end of an OCI and planning on analysis?

I'll be sending in a sample from my 10,000mi change soon. Castrol 505.01 w/5000mi on the oil.

Cool. Did you send in your 5000 mile oil as well? I'm anxious to see your results. What is your driveing style? Is it short drives or long drives where you get the engine fully warm for more than just a few minutes?

 

[jddaigle]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

Did you send in your 5000 mile oil as well? I'm anxious to see your results. What is your driveing style? Is it short drives or long drives where you get the engine fully warm for more than just a few minutes?

This is my first UOA on my TDI (will be mailing it in tomorrow). The results should be interesting. The first ~3000mi on the sample were 80% highway/20% city on Diesel #2, but the last ~2000mi have been 80% city/20% highway using B20 (I got a new job closer to home and started using Biodiesel at about the same time). The car gets to warm up almost all the time (except for quick trips down town, which are rare), and I shift @ 2500-2700rpm when cold and 3000-3200rpm once it's warmed up.

I'm most interested to see if my oil shows the anomalous viscosity drop seen on some of the 5000mi Castrol samples.

 

[SUNRG]

PD Oil Information & Analysis

Here's some info tomo366 emailed me. I'll update the chart tomorrow (each value corresponds with a column on the chart).

Previous - 16-10-04 OilAnalyzers tomo366 Passat 04 Motul 505.01 5w40 4933 9933
94 4 8 23 0 12 4 0 9 1 5 55 3013 0 985 1204 2 0 0 0 <1 12 0 0.5 NEG 13 14 6.24

Current - 10-4-05 OilAnalyzers tomo366 Passat 04 Motul 505.01 5w40 9804 19737
89 5 11 14 0 13 5 0 7 1 7 25 3039 0 915 1255 2 0 0 0 <1 14.55 0 0.8 NEG 13 14 11.18

 

[Capture1]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Oil Changes on 04 NB PD Engine:

Approx 5,000--Motul 5W/40 505.01 Changed oil myself
Approx 10,000--Castrol 5W/40 505.00 Dealer changed oil
Approx 15,000--Castrol 5W/40 505.00 Dealer changed oil
Approx 20,000--Motul 0W/30 506.01 Changed oil myself

Yes, the listings of running 505.00 oil are correct. Dealer supplied oil and put in 505.00 oil.

I captured a sample of oil from the change at 20,000 that I will have analyzed from kit I am getting from AndyH. I believe this will be the first oil analysis for a PD engine running 505.00 oil.

I will update everyone after I receive my results.

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

I believe this will be the first oil analysis for a PD engine running 505.00 oil.

Yes it will! Did you allow them to put 505.00 in twice or did they slip it past you?

 

[Capture1]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

I allowed them to put it in.

The first time they changed the oil, I asked to see what they put in the car. I argued that it was the wrong oil. I pulled out the manual and pointed out the WARNING not to use anything but 505.01 oil in the car. They said that it what they use in all TDI even PDs per VW. I left pissed and said screw it.

I drove it several days and did not have an engine failure so I left it in the car...I had thought about getting some more Motul 505.01 and change it myself. Since I am a glutton for punishment, I let them change it again. It was cold and rainy and I did not feel like changing it myself.

Nearing the time to change the oil at 20,000 (I might be crazy letting them put in 505.00 oil in but I was not about to run it on 5,000 miles) I saw the thread on 506.01 oil and later the oil analysis. I decided I would submit my sample to see how much harm I caused to my engine running 505.00 in the PD engine.

The car now has 25,000 and I plan on running the 506.01 for at least 10,000 miles. I will do another oil anlysis then to see if the numbers are really off between the 505.00 analysis and the 506.01 analysis.

 

[jddaigle]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Here's my UOA:

Wear metals are high, but I'm not surprised given my driving conditions and the age of the engine. The first ~3000mi on the sample were 80% highway/20% city on Diesel #2, but the last ~2000mi have been 80% city/20% highway using B20 (I got a new job closer to home and started using Biodiesel at about the same time). The car gets to warm up almost all the time (except for quick trips down town, which are rare), and I shift @ 2500-2700rpm when cold and 3000-3200rpm once it's warmed up. TBN looks good, too.

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Everything looks good for a young engine

- including the Castrol 505.01 viscosity. Wear is slightly below average for 10k & under PDs. Good UOA!

 

[Long_Range]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

2004 Jetta 5 speed manual.
Oil- Motul 505.01
fuel- D2
time on oil- 5,505 miles - 82 days
time on unit- 15,492 miles

Amsoil BE-90 bypass oil filter installed at 3,800 mi.
Not changed with 10K oil change.
Tandem fuel pump was leaking before being replaced.
engine was running a bit rough for a couple of months.
I believe due to air in the fuel lines.

Oil Analyzers, Inc.
iron- 29
chromium- 1
lead- 4
copper- 7
tin- 0
aluminum- 6
nickel- 0
silver- 0
silicon- 8
boron- 1
sodium- 2
magnesium- 15
calcium- 2756
barium- 0
phosphorous- 1086
zinc- 1365
molybdenum- 0
titanium- 0
vanadium- 0
potassium- 0
fuel <1
VIS @100C, cSt- 12.88
water (% vol)- 0
soot/solids (%wt)- 0.3
glycol- NEG
TBN- 7.62
OXID- N/A
NITR- N/A
F-SOOT- 0.32
CHANGE- NO

 

[saabguru]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Now THIS is THE thread to follow at tdi club!

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

LongRange - This is a good UOA. It's not as super-squeeky clean as the other bypass filtered PD (yamsTDI) but it is cleaner than the average OEM filtered PDs oil in this ODO range (average Fe wear rate for 10-25k ODO PDs = 5.86, your wear rate 5.27).

Interestingly, three OEM filtered PDs in this ODO range returned slightly lower wear rates. BUT, bypass filtered PD UOAs should be compared with other bypass filtered PDs.

The reason for this is that UOAs, in theory, return ppm estimates for particles less than 4 microns in size. The BE-90 filter removes many of the particles larger than 1 micron, whereas OEM filters become most effective around the 10 micron range. So, if an OEM filtered UOA shows 29ppm of Fe, the engine produced roughly 29ppm of Fe during that oil change interval. However, if a bypass filtered UOA shows 29ppm Fe, and we know the BE-90 is effective in removing a significant amount of 1-4 micron wear metals, the engine almost certainly produced more than 29ppm of Fe during the oil change interval.

This means that your lower than the average OEM filtered wear rates are good - and too be expected.

Personally, I do not think bypass filters significantly reduce wear metal production <u>during short oil change intervals</u>. Since you did change the BE-90 this time, I recommend extending the current OCI to 15k - but if you are concerned about your warranty, keep the OCIs to 10k until your ODO turns 50k.

Viscosity is good and TBN is fine - motor on

 

[Long_Range]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

I haven't changed the oil or filters yet.
Plan to go to the full 10k interval to 20,000 miles. At which point the BE-90 and its one quart of oil. Will have accumulated 16,200 miles.

Will take another UOA then just to see how much things changed in 5K.

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

I haven't changed the oil or filters yet.
Plan to go to the full 10k interval to 20,000 miles. At which point the BE-90 and its one quart of oil. Will have accumulated 16,200 miles.

Will take another UOA then just to see how much things changed in 5K.

I'm glad the 5k was just a sample and not an oil change - because I think the wear rate for the next 5k will be lower, significantly, than the first 5k.

I would change at 20k, then UOA sample test at 30k and, if all looks good, extend the drain interval to 15k. At that time, you'll probably find that 15k with 505.01 oil and the bypass will be no problem. However, to extend the drain interval beyond 15k you may consider using a 507 oil, just because the 505.01 spec was not engineered to be an extended drain interval oil. 507 is engineered to perform optimally in PD-TDIs for up to 30,000 miles using only OEM filtration.

Once you have access to ULSD, good quality BioD, or a blend of the two - with the bypass and 507 you'll able to seriously extend drain intervals

 

[TwoSlick]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

The wear metal particle concentrations that show up in oil analysis are mainly the result of dissolved ions and minute wear metals less than 1.0 um. The use of bypass filters does NOT skew these results to any significant degree.

Engines using by-pass filters show significantly lower wear rates, due to a reduction in the size and average concentration of insolubles in the lubricant. These insolubles include abrasive polymeric materials generated by oxidation and nitration, in addition to agglomerated soot particles and the occasional large silicon and/or wear metal particle.

The effectiveness of by-pass filtration in reducing actual wear rates is well documented in controlled field tests of commercial diesel engines. Go to www.SAE.org and do a literature search of lubricant and filtration related papers generated in the past ten years.

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

An engine with brand new motor oil (virtually containing no contaminants) will produce wear metals at a given <u>linear</u> rate. As the engine's operating hours accumulate, oil contaminant levels increase, and at some point the presence of the contaminants increases the rate of engine wear (greater than linear wear rate).

When an oil is only in service for a short period of time, the oil contamination is at such a low level that it <u>does not</u> significantly effect wear rate (wear rate remains linear).

If the very low level of oil contamination a healthy TDI creates in 10k significantly effected engine wear rates, then we would see marked increases in TDI wear rates when 5k OCI and 10k OCI UOAs are compared - but this is not the case.

During 10k OCIs in TDI engines, the oil contaminant level does not reach the point where it impacts (causes greater than linear) wear rates - i.e. <font color="red">at 10k OEM filtered oil it is still functioning optimally</font>. This reality is the rational behind the 10k OCI specification, and it has been proven to be conservative time and time again with TDI UOAs (real world TDI specific data).

<font color="red">Bypass oil filtration enables oil in TDIs to perform optimally <u>beyond</u> 10k.</font> Based on the TDI UOA data I've seen, I do not believe bypass filters significantly reduce TDI engine wear during short (10k or less) OCIs. Reduced UOA indicated contaminant levels (bypass filtered) during short OCIs, IMO are more plausibly attributable to contaminant dilution (bypass filters increase the TDI oil capacity by a minimum of 20%) and contaminant filtration.