PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 = FAQ)

[dieseldorf]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

he said that to his knowledge i am the only person in the US that has purchased Motul 506.01.

the ELF 0W-30 is here in NAmerica regardless of what Scott sez. One of the Canadian websites advertises is @ $12/L (American money). It can be had and it is on the ELF USA website.

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Elf Data Sheets:
Elf Evolution CRV 506.01
Elf Exellium DID 505.01

Update: Elf's 506.01 is on it's way to me for testing. However, there is none currently available in the US for purchase - only a small quantity was imported for Canadian distributers. However, it will definitely become available in both the US and Canada - eventually.

I spoke with Laurent Siret, Elf's Market Development Manager, and he said that they no longer offer 505.01 in Europe. It has been completely replaced by 506.01. 506.01 does include and exceed all 505.01 specifications.

I suspected as much when I was looking at the Castrol UK website and could not find any 505.01 oil. Our "new" hard to find 505.01 spec. is already outdated in the EU...

Elf had planned to discontinue it's 505.01, but has decided to continue production (for the time being) only for its NA market.

Like the Motul 506.01 , ELF's EVOLUTION CRV 0W30 (503.00 - 506.00 - 506.01) is 100% synthetic made from Polyalfaolefins (PAO's).

I guess the good news is that eventually, all NA PDs will be running on some very good oil. The downside is that it's not cheap - but I expect the prices will drop significantly once demand and sales increase.

I'll be sending both Elf oils off for VOAs within the next week. Stay tuned for more good data

 

[dieseldorf]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

ELF was going to drop 505.01 entirely

It's interesting to note the 505.01 oil has a higher (12) TBN compared to the 506.01 (10.1)

Also, the 506.01 carries a ACEA B5 rating:

A5/B5 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use at extended drain intervals in high performance gasoline and car + light van diesel engines designed to be capable of using low-friction, low-viscosity oils with a High temperature/High shear (HT/HS) rate viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.



These oils may be unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Regarding pricing for oil analysis from Oil Analyzers, Inc. (http://www.oaitesting.com), to get the preferred customer rate of $15.20 you have to purchase an Amsoil Preferred Customer Membership for $20. The non-member price for OA kit costs $20.20.

However, the TDIclub's own Andy Hecker will make OA kits available to any TDIclub member at (or very near) preferred pricing. Contact info:

Andrew Hecker
Independent AMSOIL Account Direct
9406 Vallecito Pass
San Antonio, TX 78250
www.zamslube.com
1-877-271-7646
210 392-3631
210 521-7635 fax
ahecker@zamslube.com

This is the most thorough analysis I'm aware of for this price.

Andy helped me get started with oil analysis, and I hope his offer helps others participate in this thread too.

Thanks Andy!

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

these samples were sent off to the lab today...

Elf Evolution CRV 0w-30 506.01
Elf Excellium DID 5w-40 505.01

thanks to:

Scott Bever
Sabre-Chem, Inc.
[Elf Distributer / Retailer]
Tulsa, OK 74170
USA
(918) 587-1555
scott@sabrechem.com

and

Laurent SIRET
Market Development Manager
Elf Moto Division
TOTAL LUBRICANTS USA
Phone: 908 374 5063
e.mail: laurent.siret@total-us.com

 

[Ferrari]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

English specs (same as above):
http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/FichePDF/lang_1/1111.pdf

French:
http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/FichePDF/Lang_5/1111.pdf

Now this is where it gets weird:

Danish:
http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/FichePDF/Lang_4/1111.pdf

Swedish:
http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/FichePDF/Lang_14/1111.pdf

Norwegian:
http://www.lubadmin.com/upload/produit/FichePDF/Lang_13/1111.pdf

Same site, same oil, different specs. 9.6 TBN doesn't sound as good, and 11.9cSt @ 100C isn't even a 40weight oil. Hopefully the VOA will match the English specs...

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Wow Ferrari - that is an interesting discovery. I'd be pleasantly surprised with a 12 TBN, but as Adam Sandler would say, 9.6 is "not toow shabby"

 

[dieseldorf]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

SUNRG, how did you get the 506.01 oil

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Essentially, I just got samples for testing, and Elf Evolution CRV 0w-30 506.01 is not currently available in the US - but expect it to be soon.

I have just enough for a VOA and one oil change so we'll get 5k and 10k UOAs too - thanks to Laurent Siret at the Elf Moto Division of Total Lubricants USA, Inc..

Laurent just happened to have a few litres in his office, so the Elf CRV 506.01 Laurent sent for inclusion in our PD Oil Analysis Thread is literally the entire current US supply.

My guess is that Scott at Sabre-Chem will probably be the first US Elf Retailer / Distributer to stock the Elf's 506.01. I'd stay in touch with him if anyone's interested in getting some (918) 587-1555 scott@sabrechem.com

I'm assuming you just meant the Elf 506.01. Motul's 506.01 is currently in stock in their CA warehouse and can be ordered by any Motul Retailer / Distributer.

 

[dieseldorf]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

SUNRG, thanks. Also, have you been able to establish a business connection between the ELF and MOTUL US distributors? Are they the same people?

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

If there is a connection between Elf and Motul it's above the levels of the people I've spoken with. The distributors I've spoken with are not the same people. They're competitors.

However, I know you'll recall that less than a year ago Herve Blanquart was the Automotive VP of Motul North America in Pomona, CA.

Now Herve is one of the top US Elf Distributers in La Canada, CA (a mere 32 miles from Pomona):

Logaris Distribution
La Canada, CA 91012
USA
(877) ELF.WEST
blanquart@msn.com

If you call Herve I'm sure you'd get a much better, and possibly more interesting, answer to your question.

 

[dieseldorf]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Now Herve is one of the top US Elf Distributers in La Canada, CA (a mere 32 miles from Pomona):

Ohhh, that explains it. I have seen Herve's email address listed for both the Motul and ELF products and thought both were being offered by him.

thanks again.

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Here's my first Castrol 505.01 UOA. Incredibly, the TBN of this UOA is better than the VOA - same oil, same lab. A variable worth noting when comparing this to other UOAs is that my fuel was mostly ASTM B100 [53+ cetane - ULSD]. I don't know how much of a factor the fuel is but since the other results we have are from D2 users it's at least worth noting.

Overall, I think this is encouraging and indicates that probably this sample would have been fine for 10k, and maybe more.

 

[dieseldorf]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

the numbers are very good for such a new car!

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

http://sustainablepower.net/TDI/OA/PD_Oil_Analysis_Spreadsheet.mht

The above webpage is a spreadsheet with all the PD oil analysis results we have to date.

 

[jddaigle]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

http://sustainablepower.net/TDI/OA/PD_Oil_Analysis_Spreadsheet.mht

The above webpage is a spreadsheet with all the PD oil analysis results we have to date.

Wow, the wear metals are much higher in the Motul UOA! Do we have any other Motul UOAs to see if that's just a fluke?

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

We need more Motul UOAs!

There are a few things that should be considered. This was the only Passat UOA - heavier vehicle and more horsepower & torque. or, tomo366's the high wear metals could be the karmic result of flaming newbies

seriously, if there's anyone using Motul that'd be willing to do some UOAs that's be awesome.

 

[skinz2k5TDI]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

I'm still using the castrol (dealership fill), will be loading motul 505 in the next few days... if you can hold out for 10K i'll do one..i'll have 20K on the car by then.. just let me know if it's needed then...

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

skinz2k5TDI - that'd be great. any chance you'd be interested in sending in a sample of the Castrol you take out for comparison purposes? testing two oils in the same vehicle yields the most relevant comparison.

i have a case of Motul 505.01 that eventually i'll be using / testing in our TDIs - but not for at least another 20k.

i plan on keeping this thread alive for as long as we own our TDIs

so sending in a Motul result in 10k would be great. the more data we collect the more meaningful this study becomes.

thanks!

 

[skinz2k5TDI]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

I can test the castrol... sure.... what steps do i need to take?? I'll do the motul as well and post the results of both

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

just contact Andy and he'll get you all set up.

Andrew Hecker
Independent AMSOIL Account Direct
9406 Vallecito Pass
San Antonio, TX 78250
www.zamslube.com
1-877-271-7646
210 392-3631
210 521-7635 fax
ahecker@zamslube.com

basically an OA kit is just a small plastic container (~4oz), you fill it with used oil, complete a short form, put it inside another small container they send you and mail it to the lab. the results are available both online and they mail you a hard copy. i purchased an oil sample pump too (~$25) so i could do intermediate UOAs and my sampling technique is consistent.

i look forward to seeing your first lab results!

 

[skinz2k5TDI]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

I've pinged andy to get the ball rolling.... i'll post once everything is underway..

 

[Ferrari]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Glad you guys are concentrating on Castrol and Motul, because I'm running Elf Excellium DID in both my 05 TDI and my sister's 04 TDI. We'll be able to compare UOAs.

SUNRG, any idea when you'll get the Elf VOA results?

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

the Elf VOA samples were sent in last week so we'll definitely see the results this week.

that's great that your using the Elf cuz we need Elf UOAs too. Elf's Evolution CRV 0w-30 is going in my Golf next - but that's 9.5k down the road. I also have a case of Elf Excellium DID 5w-40 but we're about 13k away from it going in my wife's TDI. Eventually, we'll run the DID for three changes or 30k and be able to contribute some significant Elf 505.01 data too.

 

[challenger]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Hey SUNRG,
I found out from a supplier that the TBN for the ELF 5w-40 is 12.0. A guy named William from Mars-Automotive is sending me a spec sheet in the mail, don't know what info will be supplied but would be interesting to see what results you get and what they spec! And I to will be using Motul 505.01 shortly (if it ever gets here)

and plan on sending out for analysis after 7500-10k miles which with my commute should be about 4 months, that's some time but it's the best I can do. Then on to ELF 5w-40 and test that also, my driving is 95% highway so results should be good considering!

'04 Jetta PD TDI
9400miles
5 speed

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Challenger,

We do have the Elf spec sheets, and it will be interesting to see if the Elf 505.01 VOA TBN comes in at 12. Personally I doubt it. Spec sheets from the 505.01 (identical oil) published in Danish, Swedish and Norwegian list its TBN as 9.6. I hope I'm wrong but if I had to bet, I'd put my money on 12.0 being a misprint. VOA results will be in this week!

Elf Data Sheets:
Elf Evolution CRV 506.01
Elf Exellium DID 505.01

Glad to have you join us in the OA study! Like I recommended to skinz2k5TDI, if you could send a sample to the lab of the oil you're taking out of your PD in a few days (to put the new Motul in) that'd be ideal. then you'll have a personal baseline / reference point with which to compare your Motul results. PM AndyH and he'll get you setup with OA kits.

wear metal numbers are expected to decline over time and then stabalize at relatively low levels. so even if a Castrol UOA from 10k does not look as good as an Elf UOA from 30k that doesn't prove one is better than the other.

i've broken the spreadsheet down into <10k, >10k and i will add >20k, >30k etc. so we can have as relevant a comparitive analysis as possible.

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

moments after making the above post i logged into the Oil Analyzers, Inc. website and the Elf VOAs were in:

Dan at Oil Analyzers noted that there are two different TBN tests:

TBN Test: ASTM D2896 [used by manufacturers]
TBN Test: ASTM D4739 [used in UOA, usually produces a TBN that’s about 2 points lower than D2896]

So the Elf 12 TBN was not necessarily inaccurate. 10.20 is still roughly 1.0 better than Castrol or Motul.

Of course the more important tests are UOAs. VOAs are just indications as to how well an oil <u>may</u> perform compared to others.

Drivers wanted.

 

[SUNRG]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

i was just looking at these numbers and came up with this VOA comparison...
LAP (Lubricating Additive Package): the sum in PPM of an oil's Boron, Magnesium, Calcium, Phosphorus and Zinc content.

Here are the 505.01 and 506.01 oil LAPs:
<ul type="square">
Elf 506.01 = 6093
Motul 506.01 = 5628
Elf 505.01 = 5592
Castrol 505.01 = 5211
Motul 505.01 = 5049[/list]

 

[AndyH]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

Reggie,

Just send a mailing address and I'll get a kit to you. Thanks! And Thanks Rob!

Andy

 

[skinz2k5TDI]

Re: PD Oil Analysis Thread

done