PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 = FAQ)

[wjdell]

I believe its the best 505.01 out there - AND I CAN NOT USE IT -
a friend drove my car today on the pike at 86 and for 1 hour. At about 3000 rpm and it was very nice.

 

[TornadoRed]

I believe its the best 505.01 out there - AND I CAN NOT USE IT -

If you are referring to Amsoil AFL 5w40... knowing what you know, why would you NOT use it?

a friend drove my car today on the pike at 86 and for 1 hour. At about 3000 rpm and it was very nice.

That is the TDI "sweet spot", from about 84-90 mph indicated. The car will definitely go faster, but you start to run into suspension limitations if you are stock.

 

[wjdell]

Well because I am getting old and I am not sure at 4200 miles if I have a good engine. If the cam fails I want to be able to hand them the reciepts for the Motul Specific that is approved by VW. IF was younger, not retired and living in Ohio were I have access to a couple of millions dollars of equipment to rebuild this I would use the AFL.

I am sure the Amsoil is better - I hope Andy and the others prove that. After my warrenty is up if there is not a better 505.01 5W40 oil than AFL - 505.01 oil. I probably will switch.

I did not run into suspension weakness but I think the elec steering is a issue at high speeds, its perfect at 70 not sure I want to tamper with adjustments yet. The Florida turnpike is a great flat surface. Now I did notice my Eclipse was way to soft above 80. The Jetta is much stiffer, and the brakes are far superior in the Jetta. The Eclipse handled better at low speeds than the jetta but at High speeds the stock Jetta is much better than the Eclipse.

Many lack faith in Amsoil because of past marketing tactics and as well there lack of submitting their oils for prioritized test.

Well Valvoline is not AMSOIL and clearly claim that their full SYN oil 20W50 is 505.01, this is a oil company that has submitted to VW testing and has a oil is on the approved list. Seems to me they would be trustworthy. Its lower TBN of 7 is much inline with 505.01 oils - 10K.

 

[coal_burner]

my uoa

my letter from blackstone labs arrived in the mail today. this is what it said:
miles on oil 10,000
miles on engine 25,000
aluminum 11
chromium 3
iron 53
copper 9
lead 7
tin 1
molybdenum 2
nickel 2
manganese 0
silver 0
titanium 0
potassium 3
boron 31
silicon 6
sodium 7
calcium 2483
magnesium 509
phosphorus 1213
zinc 1396
barium 0
sus viscosity 73.8
flashpoint 425
fuel % <0.5
antifreeze 0.0
water % 0.0
insolubles 0.4

complete background info:
this car is a 2005 golf 1.9 TDI PD
this car normally is used about 66% highway 33% city miles
this car towes a trailer on short trips five or six times a month 500 to 1500lb trailer weight
this car has been fueled exclusively on b-20 biodiesel since the second tank
this car has gelled up once during this oil's service life (at 5 degrees below zero)
my first oil change was at 10,000 miles
2nd change at 15,000 miles
third oil change at 25,000 miles
this car has been run on only mobil1 truck &suv oil

 

[Zero10]

No 5000 mile oil change?
Interesting that you selected Mobil 1, which is not approved for that engine (although I'm sure you know that part), and skipped the 5000 mile oil change.

 

[dhdenney]

Does everyone think it looks ok considering it's an uapproved oil? No big number jumped out at me.

 

[SUNRG]

Does everyone think it looks ok considering it's an uapproved oil? No big number jumped out at me.

i think everything is looking fine for this young of an engine.

coal_burner - what was your sampling method?

 

[tntdifan]

Well Valvoline is not AMSOIL and clearly claim that their full SYN oil 20W50 is 505.01, this is a oil company that has submitted to VW testing and has a oil is on the approved list. Seems to me they would be trustworthy. Its lower TBN of 7 is much inline with 505.01 oils - 10K.

Be careful about that, WJD. I've seen stuff on the net (from Motul) that claims that only light-viscosity oils can qualify for 505.01. No 20W50, ever.

I wrote to Valvoline and directly asked them whether the 20W50 was a mistake. They did not directly say that it was, but they pointed me to Max Life Full Synthetic 5W-30 and a new Synpower 5W-30 product for 505.01 applications. The Max Life was "recommended by Valvoline" but not "certified by VW" and the Synpower was "certification pending".

 

[TornadoRed]

Poor results with Elf Evolution 0w30

Back on June 13th I posted UOA results on Delvac 1 after 9566 miles, as I prepared for a test run using Elf Evolution 0w30 meeting the VW506.01 spec for extended drain intervals.

I received the results of a UOA test after 10674 miles using the Elf, and I'm very unhappy. Not only did I not observe any improvement in fuel economy, but the wear numbers look terrible. I'll be changing out this oil and going back to Mobil Delvac 1 5w40 later today.

Tested by Oil Analyzers Inc.

First number is Delvac. Second number is Elf
May 28 -- July 29
161421 -- 172095 (10674 miles on sample)

Iron 38 -- 96
Chromium 1 -- 2
Lead 2 -- 3
Copper 3 -- 4
Tin 0 -- 0
Aluminum 7 -- 7
Nickel 0 -- 4
Silver 0 -- 0
Silicon 5 -- 10
Boron 29 -- 82
Sodium 0 -- 0
Magnesium 615 -- 367
Calcium 2775 -- 3109
Barium 0 -- 0
Phosphorus 1231 -- 1133
Zinc 1528 -- 1477
Moly 1 -- 0
all others 0 -- 0

Fuel < 1 -- < 1
Viscosity @ 100C =15.33 -- 11.39
Water 0 -- 0
Soot 1.2% -- 1.6%
Coolant = none -- none

TBN = 7.35 -- 6.52

 

[SUNRG]

TR - the Fe is high.

soot of 1.6% in a mere 10k OCI indicates that something's not right.

if i had to recommend an oil for your TDI with only the information from these two UOAs - i'd definitely recommend that you use D1.

if you'd be willing to repeat the UOA sequence (D1 for the next 10k, then 506.01 for the following 10k) - and the results were similar, that would be VERY informative. [we could put more stock in a repeatable result. these results are most likely very accurate - but it is within the realm of possibility that any number of factors could have thrown the Fe value off].

on a seperate but somewhat related not - thermographer has ~120k on his PD-TDI. a Castrol UOA returned an Fe reading of 120+ppm - he switched to ELF Solarix 507.00 - and with no other changes the Fe on his next UOA dropped down into the 40s (normal). i just mention this becasue 506.01 and 507.00 are tested to the same very high anti-wear standards (though 507.00 does have a higher V@100c and HTHS viscosities) - and at least once we've seen their use have the opposite effect of what you've experienced.

cheers!

Back on June 13th I posted UOA results on Delvac 1 after 9566 miles, as I prepared for a test run using Elf Evolution 0w30 meeting the VW506.01 spec for extended drain intervals.

I received the results of a UOA test after 10674 miles using the Elf, and I'm very unhappy. Not only did I not observe any improvement in fuel economy, but the wear numbers look terrible. I'll be changing out this oil and going back to Mobil Delvac 1 5w40 later today.

Tested by Oil Analyzers Inc.

First number is Delvac. Second number is Elf
May 28 -- July 29
161421 -- 172095 (10674 miles on sample)

Iron 38 -- 96
Chromium 1 -- 2
Lead 2 -- 3
Copper 3 -- 4
Tin 0 -- 0
Aluminum 7 -- 7
Nickel 0 -- 4
Silver 0 -- 0
Silicon 5 -- 10
Boron 29 -- 82
Sodium 0 -- 0
Magnesium 615 -- 367
Calcium 2775 -- 3109
Barium 0 -- 0
Phosphorus 1231 -- 1133
Zinc 1528 -- 1477
Moly 1 -- 0
all others 0 -- 0

Fuel < 1 -- < 1
Viscosity @ 100C =15.33 -- 11.39
Water 0 -- 0
Soot 1.2% -- 1.6%
Coolant = none -- none

TBN = 7.35 -- 6.52

 

[d2305]

TR I was suspicious about the 506.01 oils and your numbers confirm that it's not a "super oil." Time to try Amsoil ALF.

 

[SUNRG]

TR I was suspicious about the 506.01 oils and your numbers confirm that it's not a "super oil" ...

d2305 - it turns out that a lot happened during this OCI that could have effected the UOA results: boost/turbo leak occured and was repaired, timing belt was changed, airbox opened/air filter replaced (dirt ingestion doubled from previous OCI - i.e. Si went from 5 to 10ppm), oil soot loading increased 33%... we can't know if any of this did or didn't effect the data the lab returned - and that's why the repeatability of results is important. and, conclusions can not be drawn with only one or two data points.

TR did send a second 506.01 sample to the lab with ~14k on the oil - but considering that the dirt and soot are already present in the oil, i wouldn't expect things to have gotten any better since 10k...

Time to try Amsoil ALF.

FYI - below is a link to the first 10k UOA I recall seeing with the new AFL. please remember that while this AFL UOA is not great - it's just one UOA and conclusions about AFL can not be drawn with only one or two data points.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000288

 

[d2305]

That's interesting, I wonder if these labs are just random number generators?

 

[dhdenney]

I checked out that 10K sample for AFL. He kept saying how disappointed he was but Amsoil did state that the oil was reformulated for light duty diesels. That might explain his 2.xx TBN opposed to his previous oil's number. His engine also had almost 200K miles. Possibly a factor in the oil's performance???

 

[TornadoRed]

d2305 - it turns out that a lot happened during this OCI that could have effected the UOA results: boost/turbo leak occured and was repaired... oil soot loading increased 33%

I think these are connected. Until the boost leak was fixed, I was getting a lot of exhaust smoke -- which is very unusual for my Golf, because it never manifests any visible smoke. Anyway, that's my hunch for why the soot was so high.

TR did send a second 506.01 sample to the lab with ~14k on the oil - but considering that the dirt and soot are already present in the oil, i wouldn't expect things to have gotten any better since 10k...

No, it won't be better -- but I'm going to guess that it won't be a lot worse. Okay, the silicon didn't go away, so the iron is probably going to be even higher. But the soot may not be much worse, and the TBN may be only slightly lower...

It could turn out that special circumstances explain 80-90% of the negative results from that UOA. But, OTOH, I saw no significant improvement in fuel economy, so no reason to spend $10-13/liter.

 

[coal_burner]

more specifics

coal_burner - what was your sampling method?

My sample was taken at about the 1/3 mark while draining the oilpan. The engine was hot immediately after about 25 miles of freeway driving.

No 5000 mile oil change?
Interesting that you selected Mobil 1, which is not approved for that engine (although I'm sure you know that part), and skipped the 5000 mile oil change.

Well the missed 5,000 mile oil change was kind of an accident. While glancing through my manual I saw that an oil change was only necessary at 10,000 mile intervals, I completely missed the part where it said change oil at 5,000 and 10,000 odo. readings. My bad
The oil I used was the best one I could find at my local Murray's automotive. My owners manual said that the oil I use should have some or all of the following certifications......
The Mobil1 Truck&SUV had the most matching certs so I bought it.
According to my owners manual, I did use an oil that is approved in my car.

BTW. I forgot to mention, my TBN reading was 4.5 .

 

[tditom]

... My owners manual said that the oil I use should have some or all of the following certifications......
The Mobil1 Truck&SUV had the most matching certs so I bought it.
According to my owners manual, I did use an oil that is approved in my car...

What oils are called for in your manual? (API/ACEA/VW specs)

 

[AndyH]

That's interesting, I wonder if these labs are just random number generators?

Excellent point!

Remembering that there can be a 10% variation if the same operator repeats the tests in the same lab, and a 20% variation in result when conducted by different labs on the same oil sample, then factoring in differences in operator technique when extracting the samples, then remembering that no two engines wear or contaminate the oil the same even when running in the same conditions on the same fuel in a controlled lab, suggests to me (and apparently learned folks like the ISO and ASTM) that in-car testing is absolutely the last method that should be used to compare any lubricant.

 

[wjdell]

Does that not seem odd to have such high iron and soot yet the rest of the additives be so close. I do not know, I am just guessing that others would suffer from such a high iron and soot.

 

[Sloppy Snood]

Elf 0w-30 CRV 506.01 at 18,110 Miles

Sloppy's 4th UOA from Oil Analyzers Inc. is available. Oil is Elf Evolution 0W-30 CRV 506.01.

18,110 miles on the oil.
42,180 miles total on the 2005.5 Passat GLS.

Iron: 118
Chromium: 8
Lead: 9
Copper: 12
Tin: 0
Aluminum: 25
Nickel: 7
Silver: 0
Silicon: 9
Boron: 42
Sodium: 0
Magnesium: 279
Calcium: 3268
Barium: 0
Phosphorus: 1204
Zinc: 1325
Molybdenum: 3
Titanium: 0
Vanadium: 0
Potassium: 0

Fuel: <1%
Viscosity @ 100°C: 11.70
Water : 0
Soot/Solids: 1.26
Coolant (glycol): no

TBN: 4.86
Oxid: n/a
Nitr: n/a
Change YES

"No corrective action required. Oil is suitable for continued use. Resample at next regular interval."

As stated previously, Sloppy's running Elf Evolution 0W-30 CRV 506.01 as of 24,070 miles. Oil change has been completed after a Motul Diesel System Cleaner treatment. New Elf Evolution 0W-30 CRV 506.01 added to the motor following the Motul treatment.

What say you AndyH and SUNRG?- Sloppy Snood

 

[SUNRG]

Sloppy's 4th UOA from Oil Analyzers Inc. is available. Oil is Elf Evolution 0W-30 CRV 506.01.

18,110 miles on the oil.
42,180 miles total on the 2005.5 Passat GLS.

Iron: 118
Chromium: 8
Lead: 9
Copper: 12
Tin: 0
Aluminum: 25
Nickel: 7
Silver: 0
Silicon: 9
Boron: 42
Sodium: 0
Magnesium: 279
Calcium: 3268
Barium: 0
Phosphorus: 1204
Zinc: 1325
Molybdenum: 3
Titanium: 0
Vanadium: 0
Potassium: 0

Fuel: <1%
Viscosity @ 100°C: 11.70
Water : 0
Soot/Solids: 1.26
Coolant (glycol): no

TBN: 4.86
Oxid: n/a
Nitr: n/a
Change YES

"No corrective action required. Oil is suitable for continued use. Resample at next regular interval."

As stated previously, Sloppy's running Elf Evolution 0W-30 CRV 506.01 as of 24,070 miles. Oil change has been completed after a Motul Diesel System Cleaner treatment. New Elf Evolution 0W-30 CRV 506.01 added to the motor following the Motul treatment.

What say you AndyH and SUNRG?- Sloppy Snood

here's a link to the previous two analyses on this oil sample - LINK

here's your Fe wear rate trend:

• 6.70ppm / 1000 miles (miles 0 to 5515) to
• 5.78ppm / 1000 miles (miles 5515 to 12094)
• 7.79ppm / 1000 miles (miles 12094 to 18110)

your engine is still quite young (~42k) and it is the larger 2.0l/134hp model - so these wear rates are OK.

since you are extending drains i think (my opinion) it's good that you used Motul Engine Clean too. i am changing the ELF Evolution CRV 506.01 in my Golf right now after ~18,300 miles and i used Motul's Engine Clean as well.

i'd sample at 6k, 12k and 18k again this time around and if there's a significant increase in the wear rate from 12k to 18k then maybe shorten the third oil sample interval down to 17k (6, 12, 17).

your Fe wear dropped from 5-12k compared to 0-5k, but in this OCI the wear rate began to increase at some point in the 12-18k range. the question is when. if this pattern does repeat itself, then like i mentioned above you can shorten the third OSI until the wear rates are similar to the first two OSIs.

if this pattern does repeat itself is the question - i think there's a good chance that during subsequent 18k OCIs the final OSI 6-12k will yield low wear rates because amazingly your engine is still wearing in...

cheers!

 

[Sloppy Snood]

if this pattern does repeat itself is the question - i think there's a good chance that during subsequent 18k OCIs the final OSI 6-12k will yield low wear rates because amazingly your engine is still wearing in...cheers!

While I understand there is not an exact number or science to automobile "break in," how long does it usually take with the newer PD engines? Does some have a PD engine that is considered to be "broke in?" In particular, I am speaking to the 2.0-liter PD diesel engines that operate at much higher pressures than the 1.9-liter engines.

Comments?