PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 = FAQ)

[SUNRG]

Rob, could you refresh us again on the type of driving you do most commonly? And how do you shift? TIA.

most of my driving is around Roanoke City / County and mountain backroads. i shift at anywhere from 1800 to 4200 rpms. lately i've been trying to shift for economy (~2k) but i P2F accelorate past 4k rpms in 2nd and 3rd at least once daily (cleansing + fun ).

additionally, my TDI is loaded a lot. my hidden hitch is hyper active - either a bike rack is attached or i'm towing my 5x8 utility trailer and have the roof rack on with a canoe or other gear on top. i definitely do not fall into a "light" use category.

this is what she looked like last weekend...

and here she is in the parking lot moments ago with just my beloved RIG 29er single speed...

i have an air lift kit installed that keeps the rear end nice and high when loaded - notice the clearance above my new Nokian i3s in the back.

cheers!

 

[Sloppy Snood]

Amsoil 5W-30 Euro Questions for AndyH/SUNRG/Anyone "In the Know"

Here's a recent VOA for AMSOIL's reformulated (released Jan 1, '06) 5W-40 Euro:

Antiwear additives:

Phosphorus..1045/906/701 ppm
Zinc .......1270/1000/804 ppm

Moly....none/none/none
Boron ..none/none/50 ppm

If all the antiwear/lubrication needed for this oil is present with a 50ppm Boron content, what is the purpose of having approximately 170 ppm Boron concentrations in Motul and Elf 0W-30 506.01 oils? Does the "extra" 120ppm of Boron in these oils exist for ESI purposes? Is this "overkill" or does the increased Boron concentration in 506.01 oils account for potential boric acid production (i.e. loss of anti-wear lubricity function from the boron itself) during an ESI? I do understand that this particular Amsoil oil is not a 506.01 oil.

Notice the drop in the multi-duty TBN/anti wear/detergent/dispersant calcium/phosphorus/zinc? And the addition of boron? That boron is adding all the anti-wear protection and then some. This is providing the wear protection as the volume of traditional chemistry is lowered to lower SAPS. This info from a company that makes boron-based additives:

Andy

In your Figure 2, the last sentence states "Mass loss is not relevant to FAIL ratings, and is therefore not provided."

Really? I would think that mass loss is relevant. Minimizing mass loss is indeed what we are trying to achieve in lubricating cam lobes, etc. I would think "excessive wear" is a measure of metal mass loss. Could you better explain or clarify that statement for the VANLUBE 289 additive?

Thank you. -Sloppy Snood

 

[AndyH]

If all the antiwear/lubrication needed for this oil is present with a 50ppm Boron content, what is the purpose of having approximately 170 ppm Boron concentrations in Motul and Elf 0W-30 506.01 oils? Does the "extra" 120ppm of Boron in these oils exist for ESI purposes? Is this "overkill" or does the increased Boron concentration in 506.01 oils account for potential boric acid production (i.e. loss of anti-wear lubricity function from the boron itself) during an ESI? I do understand that this particular Amsoil oil is not a 506.01 oil.
In your Figure 2, the last sentence states "Mass loss is not relevant to FAIL ratings, and is therefore not provided."

Really? I would think that mass loss is relevant. Minimizing mass loss is indeed what we are trying to achieve in lubricating cam lobes, etc. I would think "excessive wear" is a measure of metal mass loss. Could you better explain or clarify that statement for the VANLUBE 289 additive?

Thank you. -Sloppy Snood

I don't have an an answer for you on the 506 .0x oils - haven't seen the spec docs.

A valid test was considered to be those that ran for 60 minutes - the failures didn't make the time limit, so the company didn't measure losses. I guess it would be like asking for the finishing time for the two runners that dropped out of the 2 mile race after 500 feet - who knows how much mass loss they might have had if they lasted for 60 minutes? The full paper can be found here: http://www.rtvanderbilt.com/TDS%20Vlbe289.pdf

I have no idea if this is the additive used by any oil company - including AMSOIL or Motul. All I know for sure is that this is an additive that should show some level of boron content in a UOA.

Keep in mind that these are lab tests to show the differences between current AW additives and some amount of this particular borate additive. An oil company will include whatever amounts of additives it chooses - either to meet a spec, give a marketing advantage, or both.

Andy

 

[Long_Range]

Bypas oil filter 14,500 Mile UOA

2004 Jetta 5 speed manual.
Oil- Motul 505.01
fuel- D2
Amsoil BE-90 bypass oil filter. One quart capacity.
Make up oil = ¾ L Motul + ½ L Elf DID. My turbo leaks.
First number is from 05/2005 with 5,505 miles on oil. See post #144.
Second number is from 07/06/2006.
Oil previously changed on 08/06/2005 at 19,500 miles.
Sampled after 11 months with 14,508 miles on oil.
Therefor the first test has only 38% as many miles as the second set of numbers.
Oil and filters changed yesterday at 34,805 miles.
--------------------------------------------
Oil Analyzers, Inc.
Miles on oil (5505) (14508)
Miles on unit (15492) (34008)

iron- 29 , 48
chromium- 1 , 1
lead- 4 , 4
copper- 7 , 13
tin- 0 , 0
aluminum- 6 , 10
nickel- 0 , 0
silver- 0 , 0
silicon- 8 , 9
boron- 1 , 1
sodium- 2 , 0
magnesium- 15 , 20
calcium- 2756 , 3198
barium- 0 , 0
phosphorous- 1086 , 1194
zinc- 1365 , 1417
molybdenum- 0 , 0
titanium- 0 , 0
vanadium- 0 , 0
potassium- 0 , 0
fuel <1, <1
VIS @100C, cSt- 12.88 , 13.19
water (% vol)- 0 , 0
soot/solids (% wt) 0.3 , 1.1
glycol- NEG , NO
TBN- 7.62 , 3.29
OXID- N/A
NITR- N/A
F-SOOT- 0.32 , 1.15
CHANGE- NO , NO
____________________________
I was pleased with this latest report. Shows my wear metals slowing down as the engine breaks in. Iron wear rate per 1000 miles dropped from 5.27 to 3.3. Copper and aluminum wear rates down also. TBN held up well over 11 months. Plenty off soot in their but we are getting new ULSDF so brighter days ahead on that front.

The slow accumulation of miles was due to me being unemployed from August through November of last year. Back on a 72 mile per day commute now. Even longer than before.

 

[fitzski]

and here she is in the parking lot moments ago with just my beloved RIG 29er single speed...

AWESOME. Your first 29er? I've been debating going that route. I've been riding SS for quite a while, and full rigid for the last year or so (which gets even more comments than riding SS... go figure). I've only seen one 29er in these parts, so not much local feedback.

btw... Hi, Jack!

 

[spicy_red]

Latest oil sample @ 70643kms available at:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/3329/4wd03894.pdfhttp://pics.tdiclub.com/data/3329/57680_4WD03894_N030-36202-0221_NAR.PDF

Iron is higher than the last few.

 

[flyhigh65]

Article By Msn Posted This Am-good For Coal Business

New diesel fuel
And from the "Racing Improves the Breed" department, the fuel Audi was using was something special too. Canada's own Ron Fellows, whose factory-entered Corvette C6.R was passed more than once by the Audis, both at Sebring earlier this year and at Le Mans, told me that these things smell "like no diesel I've ever smelled!"

The implication was that the chemical brew the Audis were digesting was some magic potion cooked up by alchemists. In fact, the secret is something called "gas-to-oil", a synthetic diesel fuel made from natural gas or - and this is the interesting part, as we'll see in a moment - from coal. The fuel Audi was using was ten per cent gas-to-oil, and 90 per cent conventional petroleum-based diesel fuel.

And it isn't some secret potion either: Shell is selling exactly this blend in filling stations across Europe as "V-Power" diesel, at a price premium of about five per cent over conventional diesel fuel. I handled a sample of this additive. It is clear, colourless, not oily to the touch, and – perhaps most important – nearly odour-free. It burns virtually without particulates – the carcinogenic carbon specks which are the bane of diesel exhaust emissions, and which virtually guarantee that diesels – even those running sulphur-free fuel – will never meet the emissions standards being imposed on them in the United States from the 2009 model year onwards.

Unless, they're running 100 per cent gas-to-oil, which they can do. In which case, they're clean as the proverbial whistle. And here's that interesting part: According to Audi, there is enough coal under the state of Wyoming alone to power the entire North American vehicle fleet on gas-to-oil for 100 years.

Even if they're out by a couple of orders of magnitude, this could put hybrids, electrics, fuel cells and hydrogen on the equally proverbial trailer once and for all.

Of course, it all hinges on economics – at what price for a barrel of oil does it make sense to turn Wyoming into an environmental wasteland? That's a discussion for another time. But Audi's performance at Le Mans is a clear indication that diesel is not as dead as most people had thought.

 

[dhdenney]

Of course, it all hinges on economics – at what price for a barrel of oil does it make sense to turn Wyoming into an environmental wasteland?

Hell, I say let's do it.

 

[tditom]

flyhigh- how is this pertinent to this thread?

 

[dhdenney]

flyhigh- how is this pertinent to this thread?

I wondered that too after my comment about ablitherating Wyoming.

 

[kjblik]

Is amsoil approved for my 06 tdi jetta? I want to start changing the oil myself and want to get set up with an approved oil and filter, so can anyone tell me if amsoil 5w-30 european oil is ok to use. Also I need to find a place to buy my oil filters, so does anyone know a place.

Thanks
Kevin Medenblik

 

[tditom]

how is this related???

Is amsoil approved for my 06 tdi jetta? I want to start changing the oil myself and want to get set up with an approved oil and filter, so can anyone tell me if amsoil 5w-30 european oil is ok to use. Also I need to find a place to buy my oil filters, so does anyone know a place.

Thanks
Kevin Medenblik

Another off-topic post. Please don't litter, Kevin!!

 

[dhdenney]

Is amsoil approved for my 06 tdi jetta? I want to start changing the oil myself and want to get set up with an approved oil and filter, so can anyone tell me if amsoil 5w-30 european oil is ok to use. Also I need to find a place to buy my oil filters, so does anyone know a place.

Thanks
Kevin Medenblik

Run a search. Big topic discussed many times. However, here's a copy of my first used oil analysis with the Amsoil.

Miles on oil: 5,002
Miles on car at time of sample: 19,952
Oil changed at sample.


Iron 42
Chromium 2
Lead 3
Copper 7
Tin 0
Aluminum 4
Nickel 0
Silver 0
Silicon 7
Boron 40
Sodium 0
Magnesium 18
Calcium 1910
Barium 0
Phosphorus 809
Zinc 990
Molybendum 0
Titanium 0
Vanadium 0
Potassium 0
Fuel <1%
VIS @ 40c N/A
VIS @ 100c 12.30
Water 0
Soot .6
Coolant Neg

Add test
TBN 5.20 (out of 8)
Oxid 7
Nitr 8
F-soot .69

No corrective action required!

 

[Long_Range]

Your wear levels are lower than my 5505 mile sample with Motul. Your soot levels are around twice mine so I'll assume you romp on the right foot pedal vigorously.

 

[dhdenney]

Your wear levels are lower than my 5505 mile sample with Motul. Your soot levels are around twice mine so I'll assume you romp on the right foot pedal vigorously.

I didn't think I romped it that much. I do every now and then to keep stuff clean. I thought maybe the soot level came from what I perceive to be lower quality fuel here in Kentucky. I have no evidence to back that up, but something I figured on.

 

[Long_Range]

I didn't think I romped it that much. I do every now and then to keep stuff clean. I thought maybe the soot level came from what I perceive to be lower quality fuel here in Kentucky. I have no evidence to back that up, but something I figured on.

You must be correct on assuming low quality fuel.
You would know it if you ran your engine harder than I do.
It all makes since to me now. You have lower wear numbers because you don't run hard. The soot level, from high sulfur fuel, is within the ability of the oil to disperse so it has little effect on wear rates.

I've been experimenting with that light foot driving technique.
I hit 400 miles before my fuel needle left the half way mark. That usually means I'll get 49mpg. The heat has been debilitating here last week. usually I only get 42mpg in weather like this.

I'm rambling. That's chat for the fuel economy forums.
However: What I like most about my Jetta TDI is I can run the crap out of it and still get well over 40 mpg.

 

[dhdenney]

You must be correct on assuming low quality fuel.
You would know it if you ran your engine harder than I do.
It all makes since to me now. You have lower wear numbers because you don't run hard. The soot level, from high sulfur fuel, is within the ability of the oil to disperse so it has little effect on wear rates.

I've been experimenting with that light foot driving technique.
I hit 400 miles before my fuel needle left the half way mark. That usually means I'll get 49mpg. The heat has been debilitating here last week. usually I only get 42mpg in weather like this.

I'm rambling. That's chat for the fuel economy forums.
However: What I like most about my Jetta TDI is I can run the crap out of it and still get well over 40 mpg.

Most of my fuel has come from Murphy USA so it might not be as clean. I try to run B10-B20 when I can. I hope to see my iron numbers lower for the 25K sample I will be doing soon.

 

[AndyH]

UOA - Motul 505.01 2005 Jetta Automatic

2005 Jetta TDI Automatic GLS
10244 miles on oil
20344 miles on car
San Antonio, TX

Oil Analyzers
Motul Specific 5W-40 505.01
OEM oil filter

Iron 70
Chrome 4
Lead 4
Copper 15
Tin 0
Aluminum 15
Nickel 5
Silver 0
Silicon 9
Boron 1
Sodium 0
Magnesium 186
Calcium 2975
Barium 0
Phosphorus 1008
Zinc 1252
Moly 2
TItanium 0
Vanadium 0
Potassium 0

Fuel <1
Visc @ 100C 14.28 cSt
Water 0
Soot/Solids 2.39
Coolant No
TBN 5.29

No corrective action required.

Current fill is AMSOIL European.

 

[wjdell]

Seems like the Amsoil did better - am I reading that correct

 

[TornadoRed]

Seems like the Amsoil did better - am I reading that correct

Too soon to tell. I think he's just getting a baseline reading.

 

[SUNRG]

2005 Jetta TDI Automatic GLS
10244 miles on oil
20344 miles on car
San Antonio, TX

Oil Analyzers
Motul Specific 5W-40 505.01
OEM oil filter
...
Soot/Solids 2.39
...

Yowza!! That's the highest soot value I think I have seen in a PD-TDI (I can't think of a soot value I've seen that high in any 10k TDI UOA). Is this your vehicle Andy?

This is a young engine - so the relatively higher wear numbers are not out of the acceptable range - but that a load of soot!

Once the cause of that super high soot is addressed the overall UOA will improve too.

Cheers!

 

[dhdenney]

Seems like the Amsoil did better - am I reading that correct

My Amsoil UOA also had 1/2 as many miles as Andy's did.

 

[AndyH]

Rob,

Nope - not my PD Jetta. Friends wife's daily driver. Mainly short trips in the San Antonio city limits. Very little time on the highway, no fuel additives, and the cheapest fuel she can find.

My '97 Passat has been showing some significant soot levels, as have a number of my diesel pickup customers. It was easy to find a scapegoat when just looking at the numbers independently, but I'm beginning to wonder if this is a ULSD 'feature'.

 

[tditom]

My '97 Passat has been showing some significant soot levels, as have a number of my diesel pickup customers....I'm beginning to wonder if this is a ULSD 'feature'.

Wouldn't that be contrary to the whole point of ULSD?

 

[wjdell]

Sloppy Snoud - Elf and Motul that contain Boron are 506.01
Elf DID - Motul Specific 505.01 have 0 Boron -
AFL 505.01 does have some Boron the question is why does Amsoil use Boron for their 505.01 - To make it better - ???

or because it needed it to make the spec of protection - is it better than Motul and Elf 505.01 or inferior and in fact needed that Boron were the others did not.

I am just speculating

 

[AndyH]

Wouldn't that be contrary to the whole point of ULSD?

Tom,

The sulfur is dropping so they can use better after-treatment devices to lower NOx and particulates - so the end result is cleaner air. The price we'll pay for the 2007 emissions is particle traps, more expensive catalysts, more soot in the oil (higher rates of EGR), more expensive oil (can't use Group I any longer - too much sulfur), and shorter drain intervals. Even using high-quality synthetics, bypass filters may become mandatory to achieve extended drain intervals.

I'm not sure what's happening for the non-2007 equipment. The four reports for my car show soot increasing from .74 after 7000 miles in June '05, to 1.83 (11K, new oil), 1.89 (6700 miles, new oil), and 2.95 (14K continued from last sample) in Sep, and May '05 and Jul '06. I use fuel additives and run some biodiesel. My diesel pickup customers have been seeing similar rises over the past year - with and without additives, no biodiesel.

 

[tditom]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought the source of most soot was the sulphur. Therefore if you reduce the sulphur content (30x less!) in the fuel, the soot that the EGR introduces into the motor is much less- so less soot loading of the oil.

I need to research this some more...

 

[AndyH]

Sloppy Snoud - Elf and Motul that contain Boron are 506.01
Elf DID - Motul Specific 505.01 have 0 Boron -
AFL 505.01 does have some Boron the question is why does Amsoil use Boron for their 505.01 - To make it better - ???

or because it needed it to make the spec of protection - is it better than Motul and Elf 505.01 or inferior and in fact needed that Boron were the others did not.

I am just speculating

WJ,

AFL’s boron might have more to do with the BMW and Benz requirements than 505.01. Remember that AFL was in the reformulation cycle to update the BMW and Benz specs from LL-01 to LL-04 and 229.5 to 229.51.

According to ELF literature, Excellium DID 5W-40 is ACEA A3/B3-98, API SJ/CF, VW 500.00, 505.00, and 505.01. ELF doesn’t appear to make a product that covers 505.01 and any other spec. www.lubricants.elf.com/lub.content/NT0004CDE2.pdf

Motul Specific 505.01 is ACEA A3/B3, API SJ/CF, VW 500.00, 505.00, and 505.01. www.northamericanlubricants.com/pdf/Specific%20505.01%205W-40%20Spec%20Sheet(GB).pdf

I think AFL is the only product on the market that is formulated to cover this range of specs, so I would expect different formulation decisions to be required. It's not a better/worse thing - it's a performance thing -- the different companies formulated to hit different targets.

AFL is built to include later Euro specs - API SM/CF, ACEA C3-04, A3/B3-04, A3/B4-04, BMW LL-04, Benz 229.31/51, and VW 502.00, 505.00, and 505.01 Some of AMSOIL's other oils have boron as well.

Andy

Edit underlined. Typo.
2nd Edit - AFL data in blue.

 

[tditom]

...According to ELF literature, Excellium DID 5W-40 is ACEA A3/B3-98, API SJ/CF, VW 500.00, 506.00, and 505.01...

Andy- did you mean 505.00?

 

[AndyH]

Andy- did you mean 505.00?

Roj - thanks. Fixed.