PD-TDI (2004+) Oil Info & Analyses (Post #1 = FAQ)

[SUNRG]

Here is my 3d UOA at 50000 miles. Little concerned that the silicon level has doubled. Wondering if I might have a small leak from the air filter (I changed it at 40,000)??

the soot of 1.79 is the value i'm concerned about - relatively, that's high.

before i comment further, what sampling technique / method did you use?

 

[MikeB60]

Screwed up the posting of my latest UOA. Here it is again. I use a sampling pump; pull two samples discarding the first sample (engine hot after 2 hour trip). Hard to find decent fuel in my area, the 3d sample still has a soot reading of 1.25. Thanks!

 

[hutchman]

Second UOA on A5 (2006 Jetta)

I've had this for a while but forgot to post it. Second UOA on our A5 after switching to Elf Evolution CRV 0W30 506.01.

The car has over 20k miles on it now and the third UOA was just sent off today after doing the 20k service. I'll post the results when they come in.

Sample taken with pump/new section of hose just seconds after engine shutdown and first sample discarded. Engine was at normal operating temp.

Link to PDF in case image is hard to view:
http://www.oscube.com/picts/UOA2_A5.pdf

 

[hutchman]

First UOA on new-to-me 02 Jetta

... and likewise posting the UOA for the A5 that I had been sitting on reminded me to post this one too. This is for the 02 Jetta I picked up last fall. It lived its life until the time I got it with Shell Rotella T 5W40 which is what this UOA is on.

Sample taken with pump just seconds after engine shutdown and first sample discarded. Engine was at normal operating temp.

The car now has Elf Solaris LLX 507.00 5W30 and a close to 10k UOA is going out soon. Next oil to test looks like it will be Elf 0w-30 Full Tech.

 

[SUNRG]

after 12093 miles Elf Evolution CRV 0w-30 506.01 is performing great in my ~52k PD-TDI.

Fuel: B33 Biodiesel (33% ASTM Virgin Soy B100 Biodiesel / 66% common D2 from many different stations)
Fuel Filters: MANN 31/5 150-micron In-Line Pre-Filter, Stanadyne FM100 2-micron Primary Filter
Air Filter: OEM "A" Filter (Includes Pre-Filter media), NO snow screen
Oil Filter: MANN/OEM
Driving Style: regular P2F accelorations, plently of 5x8 utility trailer towing and hitch mount bike rack / loaded traveling. otherwise, mountain backroad commuting.
Additives: Elf Diesel Performance Additive or Stanadyne Performance Formula

 

[dhdenney]

Tell us about "oxidation and sulfation above normal."

 

[spicy_red]

after 12093 miles Elf Evolution CRV 0w-30 506.01 is performing great in my ~52k PD-TDI.

sunrg all your sample comments are "monitor compartment", what's up with that?

 

[SUNRG]

sunrg all your sample comments are "monitor compartment", what's up with that?

the monitor compartment flag is raised by...

Tell us about "oxidation and sulfation above normal."

and these are false readings...

even the 506.01 VOA came back with "oxidation and sulfation above normal".

 

[hutchman]

SUNRG,

Man the Iron levels in my A5 suck compared to yours. I'm running an undisclosed ammount of BioD in it (don't want my fuel pump relay to short out ), PS Diesel Klean or White bottle (whatever the temp. may be) and the same 506.01 you are.

I hope it is due to break in. Is Iron of 92 typical for around 10k miles? I just sent off my 20k sample so I'll post what it is for the good of the group.

 

[thermographer]

OA from ELf 507 oil at 11353 miles. Oil and filters were changed.

Al 12 Ca 1881 Cr 2 Cu 5 Fe 45 Pb 3 Mg 17 Mo 1 Ni 2 P 629 K 4 Si 4 Na 0 Sn 0 V 0 Zn 800

Antifreeze, Water and Fuel = No
Normal wear metal readings.

 

[spoilsport]

Tbn

after 12093 miles Elf Evolution CRV 0w-30 506.01 is performing great in my ~52k PD-TDI.

SUNRG:

Is there a TBN result that I'm missing?

 

[SUNRG]

OA from ELf 507 oil at 11353 miles. Oil and filters were changed.

Al 12 Ca 1881 Cr 2 Cu 5 Fe 45 Pb 3 Mg 17 Mo 1 Ni 2 P 629 K 4 Si 4 Na 0 Sn 0 V 0 Zn 800

Antifreeze, Water and Fuel = No
Normal wear metal readings.

thermo - wasn't the Fe on this oil 47ppm after 4550 miles (or something like that)? either way - this is a huge improvement over the 230ppm Fe you had over ~12k using Castrol's 505.01. Great UOA.

spoilsport - my local CAT lab doesn't TBN test. remaining TBN is an indication of how well an oil would continue to perform but wear and wear rates are my primary concern.

 

[spoilsport]

spoilsport - my local CAT lab doesn't TBN test. remaining TBN is an indication of how well an oil would continue to perform but wear and wear rates are my primary concern.

Primary interest might be more appropriate.

With those wear rates the only concern I'd have is outliving the car. Your's looks like a million-miler in the making!!

 

[AndyH]

the monitor compartment flag is raised by...

and these are false readings...

even the 506.01 VOA came back with "oxidation and sulfation above normal".

Rob,

This is probably ester related. Labs not used to dealing with different types of synthetic aren't used to interpreting the results. Another gotcha with less-experienced labs (not Cat!) is that it's difficult to distinguish ester and water with IR.

Andy

 

[spoilsport]

Oil temp & Oil Sampling Pump?

Are there any oil temps to avoid while sampling?

I'll be using an "Oil Thief" from AVLube.

 

[SUNRG]

Are there any oil temps to avoid while sampling?

I'll be using an "Oil Thief" from AVLube.

the only acceptable oil sampling temperature is "normal operating temperature". generally, local CAT suppliers sells oil sampling pumps for under $25.

extract the oil as soon as you've turned the engine off. i generally:

1. park car on level ground but leave the engine running
2. insert sampling tubing in extractor
3. attach sampling container to extractor
4. have paper towels at the ready
5. then turn the engine off and immediately begin this procedure:

 

[spoilsport]

the only acceptable oil sampling temperature is "normal operating temperature". generally, local CAT suppliers sells oil sampling pumps for under $25.

extract the oil as soon as you've turned the engine off. i generally:

1. stop the car, leave the engine running,
2. insert sampling tubing in extractor
3. attach sampling container to extractor
4. have paper towels at the ready
5. then turn the engine off and immediately begin this procedure:

Thanks SUNRG!

 

[spicy_red]

extract the oil as soon as you've turned the engine off. i generally:

1. stop the car, leave the engine running

Sorry sunrg, had to laugh... your two sentences contradict themselves...

 

[SUNRG]

Sorry sunrg, had to laugh... your two sentences contradict themselves...

that does read oddly - i meant bring the car to a stop (i.e. not rolling) but leave the engine running. i should have written "park car but leave engine running" .

cheers!

 

[Hennapanda]

Gentlemen (and ladies), I realize that this issue has been hashed, hashed again, and rehashed over and over. Still, I hope someone can point me to a firm answer.

I have read the entire thread regarding oil change intervals. I have read SUNRG, DBW, and other's excellent posts regarding the fact that you should NOT change oil in a PD Jetta (2006), using 505.01 oil less than an interval of 10K (except for the first and second changes).

However, I have been told all my life that an engine lasts longer if you change the oil more frequently. So, since reading all this information, I have asked many, many diesel mechanics, oil salesmen, stealers, marine engine experts, and other owners when to change, and they all echo the shorter period---not necessarily because of the oil being bad, but because of possible contaminants from outside sources, or for other reasons (or, just because they too have been told that this is the best thing to do).

Could someone please tell me where I can find information that shows that the longer period is the best? Is it the oil analysis spreadsheet? Or somewhere else? An article perhaps?

I am NOT an oil expert, but just cannot understand how oil that has been "used" for 5K can be better for the next 5K than brand new oil and filter.

Thanks in advance,

John

 

[SUNRG]

John - here are two quick, lab proven, examples:

1. Amsoil AFL ran for 20,326 miles - 01 TDI
2. ELF 506.01 oil still/currently in vehicle with over 14,000 miles - 04 TD-TDI (my TDI)

It just doesn't make sense to remove good oil and a good filter when lab used oil analysis objectively demonstrates that they're still performing optimally.

I just received the results from an oil sample with 14,125 miles on Elf 506.01 oil and the oil is still working great. I will keep this oil in at least until 16,000 miles and maybe further. Essentially, I am not going to drain the oil until the engine wear rates start to increase, any other course of action would defy logic and be a waste of money.

Cheers!

 

[Hennapanda]

SUNRG, thank you for the response. I did indeed check those threads out, and what you and others say certainly now makes sense.

Now: I can understand by looking at empirical proof that these 505.01 and 506.01 oils will last their appropriate length. BUT, how does an oil that has been used for a few thousand of miles actually protect BETTER than a brand new oil and filter? I assume after reading yours, DBW's, and other's posts that this is the thinking, ie, by changing oil early you are not only doing no good, but actually inducing more wear than if you had not changed the oil at all.

My brain will not let this compute.

Is there an article that explains how this works??

John

 

[SUNRG]

SUNRG ... how does an oil that has been used for a few thousand of miles actually protect BETTER than a brand new oil and filter? ... ie, by changing oil early you are not only doing no good, but actually inducing more wear than if you had not changed the oil at all.

My brain will not let this compute.

I don't know - all I can say is that this theory (phenomena) is supported by my lab data.

PM - TooSlick, he may be able to shed more light on this...

 

[SUNRG]

Elf Evolution CRV 0w-30 506.01 is still looking good after 14,125 miles. the Fe wear during this last oil sampling interval [12,093 to 14,125 miles] was a low 2.95 ppm Fe / 1000 miles.

as low as this wear rate is, it's the highest UOA indicated wear rate (by a mere 0.16 ppm) of all the oil sample intervals since i installed this oil 14,125 miles ago.

i will sample and lab analyze again at 16,000 miles, and that analysis should tell us if the 12,093 to 14,125 OSI wear rate [2.95 ppm Fe / 1000 miles] was the beginning of an upward Fe wear rate trend.

Oil Sample Interval / Fe Wear Rate

1. mile 228 to mile 2016 / 2.79
2. mile 2016 to mile 4319 / 0.00
3. missed mile 6000 sampling
4. mile 4319 to mile 8108 / 1.84
5. mile 8108 to mile 10042 / 2.58
6. mile 10042 to mile 12093 / 0.98
7. mile 12093 to mile 14125 / 2.95

Cheers!

 

[spoilsport]

can i make a suggestion

it would be nice to have images sized so the thread was readable.

sunrg's image size works for me. it's legible and doesn't F with page formatting.

just sayin'.................

 

[Sloppy Snood]

Elf 0w-30 CRV 506.01 at 12,094 Miles

Sloppy's 3rd UOA from Oil Analyzers Inc. is available. Oil is Elf Evolution 0W-30 CRV 506.01.

12,094 miles on the oil.
36,164 miles total on the 2005.5 Passat GLS.

Iron: 70
Chromium: 5
Lead: 7
Copper: 9
Tin: 0
Aluminum: 19
Nickel: 4
Silver: 0
Silicon: 7
Boron: 59
Sodium: 0 (corrected by OAI)
Magnesium: 246
Calcium: 3010
Barium: 0
Phosphorus: 1043
Zinc: 1481
Molybdenum: 2
Titanium: 0
Vanadium: 0
Potassium: 0

Fuel: <1%
Viscosity @ 100°C: 10.92
Water : 0
Soot/Solids: 1.09
Coolant (glycol): no

TBN: 5.47
Oxid: n/a
Nitr: n/a
Change NO

"No corrective action required. Oil is suitable for continued use. Resample at next regular interval."

As stated previously, Sloppy's running Elf Evolution 0W-30 CRV 506.01 as of 24,070 miles. Iron (Fe) levels are up to 70 but this is with 12,094 miles on the oil. Aluminum is up to 19 ppm but still less than the Valovoline Synpower's 23 ppm after 10,134 miles. The Sodium level jumped to 447 from zero ppm. Is this cause for concern? The ELF 0W-30 CRV 506.01 is still in the Passat.

What say you SUNRG?- Sloppy Snood

 

[SUNRG]

your Fe wear rate actually dropped from

• 6.70ppm / 1000 miles (miles 0 to 5515) to
• 5.78ppm / 1000 miles (miles 5515 to 12094)

this is consistent with what i've observed using ELF Evolution CRV.

i'd call the lab about the high Na (Sodium). on BITOG it states:

Sodium (Na): High readings of this metal normally are associated with a coolant leak, but can be from an oil additive package.

i've never seen Na go from 0 to anything like 447 - this could be a lab typo. it's definitely worth calling the lab and inquiring about.

i doubt it's coolant since the glycol test was negative.

70ppm Fe after 12k+ miles is actually good for a young 134hp Passat engine. All your wear rates dropped from 5-12k compared to the 0-5k levels - with the exception of Pb.

The following are my opinion / recommendations:

I'd leave the current CRV oil in until 17k then resample and change it.

Use Motul Engine Clean when changing the oil. Follow instructions on can - this will help you get the most complete oil change possible. It's not necessary but I think it's a good idea to get a super complete oil change during an early OCI. This product is TUV approved and used in Bosch Service Centers. Forum brother BobV www.turbolubricants.com should be able to direct you to some.

Then change the oil and filter by both draining from the drain plug and extracting all you can from to oil filter housing and oil cooler using a Tempo Oil Boy, Pela 6000, or similar.

Then reinstall a new filter and Elf CRV and leave it in for 18k miles (sampling/UOA testing only at 9k and 18k).

Cheers!

 

[your2slow]

Use Motul Engine Clean when changing the oil. Follow instructions on can - this will help you get the most complete oil change possible. It's not necessary but I think it's a good idea to get a super complete oil change during an early OCI. This product is TUV approved and used in Bosch Service Centers. Forum brother BobV www.turbolubricants.com should be able to direct you to some.

Is that something you would recommend at the 5k oil change or wait until the 10k to start using the engine clean?

 

[SUNRG]

Is that something you would recommend at the 5k oil change or wait until the 10k to start using the engine clean?

either - or. it's not something that's ever necessary but it's safe and it, combined with both draining and extracting your oil, should result in a very complete oil change.

when your engine is new, wear metals levels are high, so IMHO it wouldn't be a bad idea to use Motul Engine Clean during either the 5k or 10k OCI. maybe use the 5k for practice, get familiar with both draining and extracting oil from your TDI and install an ECS tuning magnetic drain plug. then, use Motul Engine Clean at the 10k oil change.

cheers!

 

[Sloppy Snood]

Motul Engine Clean or Auto-Rx?

The following are my opinion / recommendations:

I'd leave the current CRV oil in until 17k then resample and change it.

Use Motul Engine Clean when changing the oil. Follow instructions on can - this will help you get the most complete oil change possible. It's not necessary but I think it's a good idea to get a super complete oil change during an early OCI. This product is TUV approved and used in Bosch Service Centers. Forum brother BobV www.turbolubricants.com should be able to direct you to some.

Then change the oil and filter by both draining from the drain plug and extracting all you can from to oil filter housing and oil cooler using a Tempo Oil Boy, Pela 6000, or similar.

Then reinstall a new filter and Elf CRV and leave it in for 18k miles (sampling/UOA testing only at 9k and 18k).

Cheers!

SUNRG - I have had great success in cleaning my Infiniti's gasoline 3.0 liter V-6 with Auto-Rx. Do you think dumping Auto-Rx in at 16K miles on this oil would achieve the same result as using the Motul E.C.? Thanks. - Sloppy Snood