PD Rear Main Seal Install, No expensive tool

[Franko6]

About 10 years ago, I got a phone call from one of my gearhead buddies that said he'd installed a rear main seal, with the dubious crank sensor that is part of the installation. He could not get the car to start. That was the time we both learned (for him, the hard way..) that the crank sensor had to be positioned correctly in order for the engine to start. Actually, we had done several of these seal installs without the Official T10134 tool before we realized there was such an item. When seeing the tool, I feel its a Rube Goldberg device. Way over-engineered and too complicated, for a job that just requires a good eye.

Here is my Red Neck Method that does not require a $250 tool in order to get the job done....

When you get the rear main seal kit, it should look like this. We are using a Victor Reinz.

When you remove the plastic holder, it exposes the hole in the crank sensor wheel...

Remove the crank sensor wheel from the crank seal tool...

Reinstall the seal tool into the rear main seal...

Align the seal so the tool is right at the very edge of the inner lip of the seal.

If you are installing this seal without removing the engine, be sure to dismount the hall's sensor from the old rear main seal and install it into the new seal, before installing the seal onto crank. Also, reach through the hole provided for the hall's sensor and pull the wiring through and attach onto the hall's sensor.

Center the seal tool and seal onto the crank shaft, being careful to push the seal cleanly over the crank shaft journal. Be careful that you do not turn the seal's edge over on itself.

Now, you have to bring the engine to TDC to finish the job. From the timing belt side of the engine, remove the serpentine belt and the 4 serpentine pulley bolts. You can now access the crank sprocket and the front flange, so you can install your crank timing lock.
With crank lock in place and crank properly timed, your crank will have one bolt that aligns at TDC on the Flywheel side..

Note that there is a mark on the new seal that will match in perfect alignment with the flywheel bolt hole.
Now, the only thing left to do is match the hole in the crank sensor, so you have three points of reference, like this:

If you want to be a real critic, the alignment of this picture is not 'perfect', but it is plenty close enough. With a small hammer, tap the seal onto the crank journal, being sure to get the alignment of the three points of reference to match. I do not drive the crank sensor completely flush, but leave it sticking out slightly. I let the flywheel finish the job of getting the crank sensor completely flat.

Just so you know, I believe I have gotten the sensor out of align maybe .5 degrees with no ill effect. Those of you who are purists, I am not suggesting you throw away your expensive tool, but for me, I have put in dozens of these seals and never had a 'no start' issue because of an incorrectly installed sensor.

 

[Ol'Rattler]

Great writeup Frank it should be a sticky.

When I went to a SMF at 55K miles and saw what was involve to change the RMS I went int a cold sweat and thoroughly inspected the RMS and since it didn't leak or even seep, I decided The RMS would be just fine until the next clutch replacement. At 180K it still does not leak.

For the purist, Chitty over at My Turbo Diesel does or did rent the RMS tool.

Something that everyone does, even the vendors is calling the timing tools "lock tools". As you and I know, they don't lock anything. They index the crank and cam to TDC and if you are DIR no load is ever put on them.

The reason I mentioned this is that a while back some kid wanted to remove his cam hub and wanted to use the cam tool to lock it down to break loose the hub bolt. I'm sure there are some that have ripped out the timing hole in their head by doing this.

Not nocking you in any way, you do some rely great things for us here.

 

[oilhammer]

I bucked up for the tool because it also works on other VAG engines, specifically the 2.5L inline 5 DOHC chain engines, and they have no such TDC lock for the front.

But I've already got the use out of my tool many times over, for one-time only DIYr Frank's method would certainly work just fine.

 

[CoolAirVw]

Dont remove the yellow piece. Its there to line up the sensor reluctor. As you install it on the block it will be knocked off by part of the block at appropriate time.

Set the crank to TDC then install the seal with the yellow peice installed. Of course transfer the sensor.

I've replaced about a dozen that way since I made the post in the following link in 2015.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=287111&highlight=rear+main

 

[Franko6]

I hadn't looked to this post for a while, but a customer was interested, so I did.
CoolAir; you revise a post a year later? I thought I agreed with your post before..

Now, we beg to differ with you CoolAirVw. At very least, you give the impression that the reluctor ring needs to stay in place when installing the seal. NOT ONLY is there no need to keep that reluctor ring in place or use that yellow 'alignment tool', but keeping the ring in place may prevent you from properly installing the teflon seal over the crank journal. Get the first part right and then, if you think you need the yellow pull tab, go ahead, but my eyeballs are more accurate than that yellow piece. It is more likely to get you off kilter than to get it in place properly. As I show, it is plenty easy enough to line up the dots.

We also prefer to use the seal install part that we keep around from the Elring or Reinz ALH rear main seals, as it centers the seal from the hub of the crankshaft and spreads the seal better and more centered than the device that comes with the usual BRM rear main seal.

This is the typical ALH rear main seal and it's install seal spreader:


The size of the ALH and the later PD's journal are exactly the same size, so the device works equally well for both applications.

This shows how it looks on the crankshaft, ready to push into place. Btw: we use a bit of high temperature RTV on the bottom of the seal housing, to be sure it doesn't leak from that point.


And last, something you will rarely see when installing this seal... how the seal is spread properly and centered to make the job very simple. If you look very closely, you can see the seal spreading tool makes the seal wider than the journal for an easy fit. The ring installer avoids the potential risk of folding the PTFE seal backwards when pushed into place.

 

[Franko6]

For those who don't have this white plastic part, we kept a few dozen from ALH rear main seal jobs. We loan them with the other tooling, like timing tools or front seal replacement tooling.

 

[hajes]

We install seal yesterday on Octavia 2. Bolt hole on crankshaft doesn't mean it is in TDC and they don't need to be aligned - only holes on seal itself needs to be aligned.

We simply removed a cover from timing belt, turned engine approximately to the TDC according camshaft wheel. Removed alternator belt and aligned grooves on engine and crankshaft wheel (belt wheel). Be careful to check TDC aligment of wheel and engine block because camshaft turns twice compared to crankshaft because you can "alignment" twice...the wrong one is 180deg or 1. cylinder at bottom end.

This sort of alignment is only as good as your eye ;-)

Then you can install the seal.

 

[Franko6]

Hajes,

I think you are here to confuse the issue.

TDC is is aligned with the crank lock. At that point, there are three marks that align. One of them happens to be a crank bolt hole. Who cares if the crank turns twice? If the crank lock is installed and the cam pin is installed, you can't miss TDC. You confuse a very simple issue.

 

[hajes]

what I tried to say is with alignment of crankshaft such as by crank lock...bolt holes on crankshaft may be somewhere else as is on my car.

I have aligned seal and ring holes but crankshaft flange bolt is turned 2 grads for example. Or it is possible that something moved on timing belt side and it is all crap now :-D

 

[merf]

p0341 implausible signal

I've done an engine conversion BMM to ASZ and installed the seal by eye with the timing at TDC with the locking pins, I changed the cam wheel over from the BMM to the ASZ and left the cam sensor itself, I fitted a new timing belt and the timing was perfect before fitting the engine. The engine runs but is giving fault code 00083 camshaft position sensor g40 p0341 implausible signal.


I think the crank seal ring must be out. Is there a way to check with VCDS? in in group 4 torsion value I have 0.0KW. I can't see anything else that relates to this in 90-93.

 

[merf]

I have checked and adjusted the cam timing slightly, but still get the implausible signal code. When the engine is revved above 2000 the torsional value appears, (i.e. changes from 0.0), it shows 5.9KW at 2000 rpm and 6.4KW at 3000rpm. I am guessing this means the crank pick up ring is 3 degrees out, cam moves twice as fast as the crank?

 

[Franko6]

Hajes,

I don't know what you are doing to mis-align the crank, but with the universal crank lock, there are two different settings. Otherwise, there are two different VAG tools; one fits the BRM, BMM etc., the other fits the older engines, like the BEW, BHW. There are dual overhead cams, but I believe they are probably align with the later BMM, BRM, etc.

The whole point is, if you get the correct crank timing tool in the correct spot, there is one bolt that will be in line with the mark on the seal's mounting plate and the hole in seal itself. VAG does not make the crank any other way.

Merf,

If the crank seal were so far out as to be a problem, your engine would simply not start.

If your cam sensor is reading 0.0, there are 4 ways that can happen. But none of them have to do with the crank timing.

1. The cam sensor is dead. In that case, the engine will default to '0.0' read. The engine cannot find 'the next injector to fire' as startup and runs in a default cam timing position. If you move the timing incrementally from it's current position and still get 0.0, you have a dead cam position sensor.

2. The cam position sensor is way too advanced or retarded. When the cam position is very far out of whack, the sensor does the same thing as if it's dead. No read 0.0. if it's past a reasonable point for cam timing.

3. I do not know for sure that the BMM and the ASZ are the same timing pulley. I think not. One wheel has gaps in a ring in the early model (ASZ) and the later BMM have small fingers. The point is, they are not the same. You might look to see the obvious difference between the sprocket pulleys. Use the appropriate one.

4. If you do have the correct pulley, which I think should be the BMM pulley or the one with small fingers. The fingers can easily be bent, unlike the other version. Make sure they pass the cam position sensor without an excessive gap and they are all about the same gap. Clearance of no more than 1/8" would be appropriate.

 

[abdulwq]

Hi Please help me out .
looking at pic the holes for flywheels are not dead straight so is it i am off TDC.
Now what is the best way to fix it without buying new seal? Can i just hold the metal seal with the yellow plastic lock which came with the seal and then bring it to proper TDC?
Does only locking the cam shaft brings TDC? sOrry i dont have crank locking tool???

 

[Franko6]

Could you get rid of that bigger than life size picture? Just delete it...

 

[abdulwq]

Could you get rid of that bigger than life size picture? Just delete it...

Can you comment now about the seal install if its in OK position as i am just concerned why the crank bolts did not align as they normally align with the seal. Engine is at TDC cam shift pin slided in the shaft notch, crank shaft is not locked but the marking is spot on.( if the locking tool does not arrive today i will lock the crank with two bolts and a metal strip).

 

[Franko6]

Sorry for the delay.

I think you are a hair off. Will it work? Most likely. I cannot say positively. I do not know how far off you can be before it will cause failure.

Removal of the crank sensor wheel is not that big a problem. There are threaded screw holes that can be used to push the entire seal off, if you think you'd like to try again. Also, there are a couple of places a screwdriver can be used to pry the seal off. The Crank sensor will come off with the seal. The seal can be reinstalled and the crank sensor realigned on the crankshaft.

I would probably remove the seal and try again.

 

[Rorz7370]

p0341 implausible signal

I've done an engine conversion BMM to ASZ and installed the seal by eye with the timing at TDC with the locking pins, I changed the cam wheel over from the BMM to the ASZ and left the cam sensor itself, I fitted a new timing belt and the timing was perfect before fitting the engine. The engine runs but is giving fault code 00083 camshaft position sensor g40 p0341 implausible signal.


I think the crank seal ring must be out. Is there a way to check with VCDS? in in group 4 torsion value I have 0.0KW. I can't see anything else that relates to this in 90-93.

You have to swap the camshaft sensor ring and sensor from the 2.0

 

[tbonesteak]

Just too save someone else a load of time and stress. Mark the seal as is with some tippex before removing. Copy the marking on new seal. Use x3 12mm spanners or large washers with old crankshaft bolts to put circle ring onto crank. Job done!

 

[Franko6]

Sounds like someone is doing a 'paint and pray'. You go right ahead. I see more chance for error. A crank lock aligns the engine to TDC. Then, can you align three points? The hole in the sensor, the bolt hole in the crank and a small mark on the seal itself.

If it comes to it, I do have the correct tool for those who wish to do it 'by the book'. However, I've never used it and have never had anyone complain my crank sensor install was off-time. Even the idea of using old bolts and washers... I use a non-marring hammer. Tap, tap, tap, I drive the sensor into position, slightly protruding and let the flywheel do the rest.

Don't overthink it.

BTW: When installing the rear seal itself, I save have saved back all the seal spreaders for an ALH/AHU/BHW/BEW rear main seal. The original seal spreader that comes with the BRM PD and every 2.0 TDI has no centering hole for the nose of the crank.

The crank in almost every aspect is the same since 1996 EXCEPT for the deletion of the crank sensor wheel and the rod journals are 53.7mm in the BHW and Common Rail, instead of 50.6mm. That ALH plastic centering tool aligns the seal perfectly onto the journal for a very easy and foolproof method of installation.

Although you may not have that ALH install ring, I've got one for every one of the seals I sell that have the rear-mounted crank sensor. It's FREE! LOL

 

[tbonesteak]

Well the above paint and pray worked just fine, engine started on the button after fitting new clutch and flywheel. Just came back from a 500mile trip, no issues. I did over think it but realised as long as you take a little care with marking the seal, you'll have no problem. Lastly after using x 3 12mm spanners to get it flush with crank, I then tapped the new ring seal with the old one to get it just right on the crankshaft. Go speed racer go!!

 

[Franko6]

As goes the adage, there are a hundred ways to skin a rabbit. Variation on a theme, I have people do the same thing with other methods of mine.

 

[Greg Hussey]

Hi. I am placing the rear main seal on my 2006 1.9 BRM. I have overshot the space between the sensor ring and the crank shaft by more than 0.5mm. Is there a way to pull the ring back out to the spec? Any help would be appreciated.
thanks
Greg

 

[BobnOH]

How much over 0.5mm?

 

[Greg Hussey]

over a mm, like 1.4mm.
do you of a way to pull it back a bit? What are they trying to achieve with that spacing?
Thanks