PD 130 injectors on a 1.4 TDi...Good idea or not?

[K.I.T.T.]

I bought my first car (53 reg Polo 1.4 Sport TDi with 23k miles) about a month ago.

I've never heard of anyone putting PD 130 injectors on a 1.4 TDi (maybe for a good reason?)...but anyway, I'm almost certain that they'll fit (correct me if I'm wrong). Two questions for you:

First of all, would the engine be able to run without smoking with the standard turbo, intake and exhaust?

Secondly, would it produce any noticable difference in performance, or just more smoke and less economy? If the former, what sort of figures would I be looking at with a chipped car? I know with everything else stock, around 108 BHP seems to be the norm, so would somewhere around 120 BHP be achievable?

If you'd be able to give me an answer for a stock car and a car with these parts which is about to have a custom remap, I'd really appreciate it

Finally, with or without these injectors, would a PD 160 Cupra intake hose be worth it (seeing as they're now £70+) on a generic remap? What about a custom one with the injectors I'm asking about?

Many thanks!
Ash

 

[mctdi]

I do not know about the 1.4 TDi. But the injectors on a "PD" engine are driven by the added lobes on the cam shaft. Does the 1.4 TDi have an injection pump run by the timing belt?

Ben

 

[K.I.T.T.]

I'm not sure, but the 1.4 is a PD unit if that helps

3 cylinders, 1422 CC so same bore/stroke as the 1.9 l engine...pistons are interchangable I hear.

Ash

 

[devonutopia]

would be interested to find out. I wonder whether the stock ones are the same essentially as PD100/PD115 ones? It obviously makes 75% the power due to having 75% of the fuelling/cylinders. If the injectors were interchangeable, in theory I reckon the tuning could be exponentially increased in the same way the 1896cc engines seem to. 1.4 TDI with about 200bhp would be interesting....

 

[K.I.T.T.]

Yeah, I thought the injectors on the 1.4 TDi would be the same as those on the PD100...just need to confirm this

 

[devonutopia]

Well, according to my parts catalogue they do look the same - all three engines for my car, ATD (pd100), ASZ (pd130) and AMF (1.4 TDI) are in the same section.

PD130 = 038 130 073 AL
PD100 = 038 130 073 AJ
1.4 TDI = 045 130 073 T

It does seem a little worrying that the "fittings" are shared between the PD100 and PD130 units (such as tensioning plate, adjustment screws, etc) but for each one of those parts the AMF is listed separately with a different part number.

Balls to it, here's a screenshot.

 

[K.I.T.T.]

Now begs the question - will they fit in the 1.4 TDi?

Sorry if sound a little thick after reading all of the above

Thanks!
Ash

 

[Bojje]

Looks like they should fit.

Try it out.

 

[DERV-NERD]

I think they just might! certainly look the same.
This is data taken from my autodata book.
nozzle opening pressure>(bar) 300/2050
fuel pump pressure>(bar) 3,5/1500
The above figures are the same for the 1.9 and 1.4 tdi. (pd)

 

[im570rm]

i dont know about that, but i would swap an asz into it,it's probably cheaper and more efficient.

 

[Bojje]

1,4 TDI and 1,9 TDI seems to be the exactly the same type of machine except for one less cylinder in the 1,4.

Looking at hp/litre for the 1,9 PD - 100 hp / liter holds up great without any type of internal engine failures. My estimate would be that the 1,4 TDI should cope with 140 hp or even more without worries. Should be enough in a Polo!

 

[DERV-NERD]

I agree with BOJJE, all the tech injector data between the two are the same.

 

[GoFaster]

The reason there is a separate line item for all of the fittings for the AMF engine in place of those for the other engines, is not that the parts are different, it's that the quantity-required is different, 3 instead of 4!

No worries, the injectors will go in.

 

[K.I.T.T.]

Thanks for all the replies everyone

So do you think there would be any issues with smoke if I used PD130 injectors on my car without any changes to the intake and exhaust? And can anyone hazard a guess on what sort of power increase I'd be looking at (with the stock turbo) with and without a remap? Just so everyone knows (which you do ) the stock output of this engine is ~75 BHP and a stage 1 remap ups this to around 105 - 110 BHP.

I don't want to spend stupid amounts of money on the car. I've always planned on remapping it at some point in the future, but if injectors + remap can give ~120 BHP, I'd be very happy indeed

Once again, thanks for your help
Ash

 

[GoFaster]

One would think it should be in that range. You will have more or less three-quarters of a chipped PD130 at that point. The one question is the turbo; what is it and how much boost is it good for? The PD130 has a VNT17.

 

[K.I.T.T.]

One would think it should be in that range. You will have more or less three-quarters of a chipped PD130 at that point. The one question is the turbo; what is it and how much boost is it good for? The PD130 has a VNT17.

A bit of a tough one...I'm not sure for certain, although I do know it's either a VNT15 or a GT15.

I *think* the VNT15 is used on the PD100/115 as well isn't it?

Anyway, here's a link for the GT15:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT15/GT1548_466755_3.htm

Thanks,
Ash

 

[Bojje]

My dad just bought the 1,4 TDI for his Polo and I'm not joking - my fist is bigger than that turbo.

 

[mctdi]

I'm not sure, but the 1.4 is a PD unit if that helps

3 cylinders, 1422 CC so same bore/stroke as the 1.9 l engine...pistons are interchangable I hear.

Ash

OK. Now I know that the 1.4L is a PD, also.

Thanks,
Ben

 

[Rub87]

I should slap a gt1749vb on it, the ASZ units, decent IC and 150hp shouldn't be a problem..

Stock turbo is pretty small on the 3 pot engines, it's a non vnt turbo so spoolup with a vnt17 should be around 1900-2000rpm..

 

[K.I.T.T.]

So do you think the stock turbo will be capable of handling around 120 BHP? Also, where's the best place to get hold of PD130 injectors and what should I expect to pay for them?

Many thanks!
Ash

EDIT: Re above post - I doubt I'm going to be able to afford VNT17 for some time yet, which is why I'm asking about the stock turbo, but 2-3 years down the line it may be a possibility...I don't plan on selling the car anytime soon

 

[Rub87]

Stock turbo should be a gt1544s.. Pretty small thingy..

With some luck it has the triangular flange, so that would make a vnt17 a drop in upgrade.. only an other DP flange would be needed..

 

[LNXGUY]

It's can't be any smaller then the vnt15 found in the 90HP ALH engines.. I am sure it would support 120bhp without to many problems.

 

[K.I.T.T.]

So I took off the engine cover today to find where the injectors were (should have taken a pic..never mind). Rather than right at the top of the engine block, they're more towards the middle of it, and look a lot different to those of the ALH engine (There don't seem to be individual fuel lines, and I couldn't see any fuel pipes that were metal...). I'm assuming replacing the injectors on my PD will be a different procedure to this: http://pics2.tdiclub.com/pdf/injector_install_howto.pdf

Thanks,
Ash

 

[mctdi]

So I took off the engine cover today to find where the injectors were (should have taken a pic..never mind). Rather than right at the top of the engine block, they're more towards the middle of it, and look a lot different to those of the ALH engine (There don't seem to be individual fuel lines, and I couldn't see any fuel pipes that were metal...). I'm assuming replacing the injectors on my PD will be a different procedure to this: http://pics2.tdiclub.com/pdf/injector_install_howto.pdf

Thanks,
Ash

The fuel lines are cast into the cylinder head. And once installed, there is an adjustment on the rocker arm so that it is just above bottoming out the injector. There are some posts covering this.

Ben

 

[K.I.T.T.]

Hello all,
Thought I'd dig this thread back up rather than start a new one. It's been well over a year I know...

My car was remapped in March last year, need to get it on a RR, but I'm guestimating it's around 110 BHP at the moment. We've all come to the conclusion that the turbo on my engine (code AMF) is wastegated rather than of the VNT kind. The question begs, would you recommend any other wastegated turbos which may flow to around ~130 BHP?

I know I may be wasting my time with this car, but I've kinda grown a soft spot for the wee 3 cylinder engine and would like to keep it for longer (not to mention, the amount I've had to spend on it after someone did a hit and run ). I'd really love to get a Polo GT with the 130 BHP 1.9l unit in, but I'm a poor student and have other priorities. My car with its lighter 1.4l lump and would give a stock Polo GT a run for it's money if it had >120 BHP.

Finally, does anyone know if the gearbox from a PD100 based car would be a direct swap? The PD100 polo has longer gears and cruises at a lower RPM at 70 MPH, however with the remap I think my car could easily rev through a longer gearbox and benefit me with lower fuel consumption as quite a few of my miles are motorway and I'm cruising at 2750 RPM at the national speed limit (70 MPH).

Any help appreciated as usual.

Thanks for your time

Ash

 

[Rub87]

Gearbox is pnp..

I'd go for a vnt turbo, kp39 or vnt, cut forth runner and adjust downpipe, use base software from 90hp A2..

If you go with bigger WG and longer gears it's going to drive like **** at low rpm's because the turbo won't spool.. which a vnt WILL..

Maybe also use a decent clutch because stock 1.4 tdi's are clutches for ladies imo, engage is very wide spread and high on the pedal, and the tend to slip soon..

 

[K.I.T.T.]

Gearbox is pnp..

I'd go for a vnt turbo, kp39 or vnt, cut forth runner and adjust downpipe, use base software from 90hp A2..

If you go with bigger WG and longer gears it's going to drive like **** at low rpm's because the turbo won't spool.. which a vnt WILL..

Maybe also use a decent clutch because stock 1.4 tdi's are clutches for ladies imo, engage is very wide spread and high on the pedal, and the tend to slip soon..

Thanks for your input Rub87, I was kinda hoping you'd reply (I've been reading some of your posts and you know what you're talking about ). By pnp I assume you mean plug and play. I understand what you are saying regarding bigger wastegated turbo (> lag) + longer gears = not so good. How about a 6 speed from a PD130/150 Bora or Golf?

But do you think there would be problems by just using the longer gearbox the with the stock wastegated turbo? Regading the VNT, you're saying to enable N75 in the ecu as this isn't enabled for a wastegated turbo right? I'm assuming this can be done through good remap dealers, as I've not seen many reputable ones that list a remap for the 90 BHP A2...those cars aren't very common (even less so regarding owners who tune) in the UK. Do you know if the turbo from this A2 is a direct bolt on or do I need a new manifold, as custom work can start to cost £££, something which I do not have at the moment unfortunately. Finally, what VNT turbo is this?

I'm starting to think maybe just adding PD130 injectors would be easier, but am worried about smoke due to the small turbo (unless anyone has some input regarding this?)

And do uprated clutches for this engine exist? I've not come across any so far, although from reading around the stock ones don't seem to hold well past ~220 ft/lbs of torque. I know what you mean by the clutch being designed for ladies...it's quite hard to stall, sometimes even on purpose haha...although it's sometimes an advantage in an emergency.

Thank you

Ash

 

[Rub87]

Hmmz.. the turbo found on a 90hp A2 is a KKK bv-39, which is almost identical to the PD100 unit, but the pd100 has a manifold with 4 runners while the 1.4 has one with 3. fact: PD100 turbos are many and can be get cheap, 1.4 90hp turbo's are rare and expensive, sooo, you take a PD100 and cut one runner off and weld it close, now the turbo mounts on your engine, also you'll need a 90hp downpipe, or weld another flange on you current one), oil lines etc all are pnp from a 90hp (maybe laso from a 75 not sure).. the PD100 turbo will spool fine (I bet it will spool even faster than you current 1544s) and flow lets say 140 hp, (in a P100 they flow around 150hp, but tend to creep, which will be less of an issue with the 1.4)

now the control part, you'd need an N75 from a vnt car, options enough.. IIRc the polos already have the black box with all the valves in one, should be easy swoppable from a vnt car, then you can keep you current ecu, but you need to flash 90hp software.. which is done quite easy, now a 90hp has IIRc the same PD elements as a PD130/150, so if you swap these the calibration in the software will be done the same time, then it just comes to remapping the setup..

longer gearbox with current turbo will be possible, but slower.. PD130 injector with current turbos = useless because you can make it smoke with stock injectors already..

Btw, I'm studying now, hence the quick reply :s

 

[majesty78]

Ruben is right about all he wrote, nothing to add for me any more*g*
I know of two such conversions been done and both customers are very happy with it.
Clutch indeed is an issue, but if you want to swap gearbox anyway then this should be the best time to uprate the clutch.
Second possibility is to restrict torque in low RPMs via mapping.
Only swapping in the PD130 injectors would not be the best thing to do. You need to recalibrate injection timing, beginn of injection...
Your stock injectors are 465cc and PD130 are 550cc, so there is quite a difference there.

Greets, Alex

 

[K.I.T.T.]

Ruben,
Haha...studying, yet you still have time to reply . OK I get you now, try and get a stock PD100 and exhaust manifold and remove the #4 runner and reprogram the ECU to enable N75 control (well, I'll have to ask around to see if anyone will do that). Also, forgive me but although I have a basic understanding of how these cars work I have never looked at an engine in detail and don't really have any tools to enable me to do such work myself (and wouldn't know how anyway ). Would the exhaust manifold from the PD100 fit straight on once the #4 runner was removed / welded shut? (If anyone has a picture of this stock manifold, could they upload it? Even better if someone ha one from the 1.4, but I know what it looks like from a small resolution pic I saw.) Is it easy to get the oil lines made up if they are not compatible (and where would you do this?)

Alex,
Thanks for your input. Have you got any more details of these conversions including power/torque figures (links maybe?)? How easy was it getting the PD100 manifold to fit and did the oil lines match up? Apart from what has already been said would any other parts be required? Also, the clutch used in the AMF is 216mm in diameter as opposed to the 226/228mm clutches on PD100/VR6 cars. I'm thinking this is independent of the gearbox, so even with a PD100 box, the clutch would not fit (Although I could be wrong...I have limited knowledge regarding the technical aspect of things). Any other clutches worth looking at that are a straight swap? It is worth mentioning though that my stock clutch still has a lot of life left in it as my car is only on around 30,500 miles despite being over 5 years old.

If I ever perform these mods, it probably wont be for another 12 months or so, but I like to gether my info in advance so I have a rough idea how to approach my goals.

Thanks a lot for your help

Kind regards,
Ash