P2711 Code - DSG - 2009 TDI post fix warranty issue

[Teamzarz]

Hey all. I'll try to keep this brief.

Car does the thing where it tries to get reverse sometimes and can't quite get there then gives up and goes into limp mode with PRDNS flashing on the MFA.

The other day I got a CEL and I scanned it to reveal P2711 - Unexpected/Implausible gear engagement. No other codes and the CEL self-cleared 2 days later.

The 2009 TDI's apparently get a warranty extension that includes the mechatronic unit and the transmission itself after receiving the fix.

I brought my car back to Fields VW in Dayona Beach after confirming with VW customer care that this is in fact true and my transmission and mechatronic unit are covered until 206k miles (I'm currently at 163k)

They scan it and tell me that VW TSB 30-14-03 says they are to replace the clutches if the trans has more than 19k on it and It's not a warranty item.

VW has fixed NUMEROUS items on this car since before Dieselgate for NOTHING and has done a great service to me and my family, absolutely no complaints, so I'm not fighting their decision not to replace a clutch pack full of friction disks on a trans with 163k miles. that being said....

I've read numerous reports that VW considers these wet clutches good for the life of the vehicle. Some people have thrown the word "lifetime" around. So, what does VW consider to be the "lifetime" of a DSG trans or the clutches? Is it the extended warranty on the OG units to 120k?

It would see to me if my entire transmission is covered under the warranty as well as the mech unit then something not considered "consumable" by the company should be replaced under warranty.

Thoughts? same issue?

 

[Teamzarz]

Also as an addendum / bump....

Has anyone tried just replacing frictions and plates from raybestos powertrain instead of the full 700 dollar clutch pack from VW? Heard tell of imbalances from improper plate alignment but then what about companies like SSP and APR that provide upgraded frictions? Any issues there with balance?

 

[Teamzarz]

So i guess nothing then?

 

[Teamzarz]

 

[meerschm]

If your car had the updated fix that comes with a DSG warranty, and customer care says so, go back to the dealer, get them all on the phone, and have them fix it.


if need be, you can contact the settlement law firm.


they should pay for the fix.

 

[Teamzarz]

They say that my car is not a car that had the mechatronic unit update but according to the warranty pamphlet I can't see where it says "if we don't update your mech unit the transmission and mech unit aren't warrantied"

They wont fix it for me because they have already fixed a lot of things on this car and I think they are finding an excuse to not dump anymore money into it by claiming that the clutches are "wear items".

They have given me no clear answer after multiple emails on what they believe is the usable life on the clutches. All they ended up saying more or less is "The warranty is written vague on purpose so we can decide what we are going to cover on a case by case basis"

VW acknowledged my interpretation of the warranty was correct but claimed clutches on the DSG are not the transmission or the mech unit and are not covered. Seriously that's the answer?

 

[meerschm]

the DSG was only covered for the few cars that needed a new mechatronic unit to accept the updated software.


it does seem that clutches are a wear item, but should last quite a long time if not abused.


that being said, you can decide if you want to put a set of new ones in.


there should be an independent mechanic someplace you can find.


what is the service history? if you are a diy kind of guy you might want to change the fluid and do a DSG adaptation. see if it buys you some time.

 

[Teamzarz]

The DSG for my car is covered VW customer care confirmed it. They did not have to replace the mechatronic unit for the software update as you mentioned but my mechatronic unit and TRANSMISSION is covered until 206k miles.

Clutches on this car as you well know are wet clutches and are not subject to driver abuse as the only time a clutch sees wear is during engagement/disengagement. Slipping a wet clutch pack really should not occur at all under normal driving conditions and when it does it is minimal.

The fluid in this trans is fresh I just did the DSG service prior to the P2711 light. It was doing the whole PRDNS flashing thing without the CEL prior to me doing the DSG service and it is still doing it after. I have not done the adaptation through VCDS I only did the onboard DSG reset with holding the accelerator down for 10 seconds deal.

So with VW claiming that my car has a transmission and mechatronic unit fully covered, I merely asked them what I'm asking here, what does VW consider to be the lifetime on the trans and are the clutches supposed to be deemed wear items. I have conflicting answers on that, for my car they are deeming them wear items because they don't want to fix my car anymore (can't blame them) for other folks with certain trans issues they are covered under their extended warranty.

They could not give me a straight answer as to what they deem is the lifetime for stock clutches in this unit, they avoided answering it directly through several emails.

I most likely will be doing the clutches myself, in fact I'd like to just replace the friction and steel disks inside the drum as it is fairly simple to do and costs a hell of a lot less.

 

[meerschm]

I offer that of course the wet clutches are subject to driver abuse.



they also are subject to improper fluid or servicing interval or improper servicing procedure.


but if VW tells you the transmission is covered, it should be covered.


but if they don't want to fix it, you probably can find a set of clutch disks



But, before you crack the case, you probably want to get your hands on a VCDS and see what the actual codes are the transmission controller reports. you could run the adaptation and if the clutches are gone, I would guess the process would complain before completing.



I never opened my DSG case, but you can find the parts and a couple videos if you look. you can also try to look for folks with more experiences with DSG diy service at other VW sites. these were used on many more cars than just the TDIs.

 

[Teamzarz]

Can you explain how under normal conditions the computer controlled clutches in a DSG trans attached to a diesel engine in my wagon (no launch control) can be abused by the driver? I'd assume the same way a driver can abuse a torque converter in a true automatic. AKA not much if at all under normal driving conditions.

Failure of engagement/disengagement, improper clamping pressures, and the like fall on the shoulders of the mechatronic unit not me. I would doubly argue that a mechatronic unit that hasn't failed but isn't working 100% all the time will cause premature clutch pack failure.

Motorcycle guys almost never have to change their wet clutch systems, I know smaller rotating masses and all but because of the smaller diameters and higher rpm they are subject to similar shearing forces.

Even still I can drive a manual transmission with a plain old dry clutch in it to 200k miles without any issues.

The wet clutches in these cars should last over 200k miles which brings me back to my original question again.... what does VW say is the limit on these items? They will replace them under a regular trans warranty as a non wear item. These transmissions were warrantied up to 120k, should be enough time to abuse them if it were possible.

All DSG flushes on my car were the factory method with the factory tool ever 40k with filter as reccomended. I also argue that many of these units were filled improperly (too much) at the factory anyway as well.

Also you don't need to open the case to access the clutch pack or the friction/steel inside the drum. You remove the transmission, there is a large snap ring holding on a cover with a seal. That ring comes off with a standard screwdriver or other prying instrument, remove a large circlip with snap ring pliers and its out. No need to unbolt the bellhousing from the shaft cover.

 

[tdi-mb]

teamzarz - Did you fix your DSG issue or have someone do it? I'm interested in the outcome here.

I'm currently at 130k on my 2010 DSG JSW - no issues at this point.

 

[Teamzarz]

Nope not fixed. Still deal with intermittent reverse and flashing PRDNS. Otherwise car drives normally so I figure Ill drive it till the wheels fall off. If it is going to get fixed I am going to do it. You can get a Raybestos friction/steel pack on eBay for 200 bucks, Alto also makes a set but it's ala-carte I can provide part numbers if needed.

VW's response to their warranty on this was it is written intentionally vague so they can deem at their discretion whether or not to honor anything on the extended emissions warranty provided after the fix. That includes not just transmission stuff for 2009 JSWs but for all parts on all model years it seems.

here is the email chain with me and regional case manager Sarah G.
My initial email to her after many phone conversations was merely asking what the life expectancy of the clutches are to determine if they are covered under my specific warranty. They had already said they wouldn't cover MY car because they had already replaced many parts on my aging car without a warranty. Watch the frustrating round in circles conversation.

LINK TO IMAGE OF EMAIL CHAIN

 

[Diesl]

Maybe you should talk to a lawyer.