Opinions on VW's 2.5l I5 wanted

[turbobrick240]

My golf is going back to VW at the end of the month and I've been looking at replacements. Today I test drove a '10 golf 2.5L 5 speed with 112k miles. It rode very nicely, though didn't have the abundant torque I've been spoiled by. Had new 15" tires and felt very tight. Seems like a good deal at $5.5k. I'm also considering new golf/gti's, but this golf would be a great winter car, and keep me from feeling pressured to get a new car. Any opinions on the 2.5L powerplant?

 

[Powder Hound]

Ask me when I get my new-to-me 2006 NB I just bought for my wife sorted out.

This engine has good low end torque due to the long stroke, smoother than a 4 cyl so it doesn't need a balance shaft, has a couple of quirks as in known probably failure points, but no real bad warts, unless you think pulling the engine to do the timing chains is a really big deal.

So what are the known warts? The PCV tends to fail, the vacuum pump (yup, diesels aren't the only engines to have a separate vacuum pump, and its not even because of the turbocharging!!) leaks oil eventually, the evap purge solenoid likes to go on vacation, and the timing chains don't last forever.

PCV - this one has two, one integrated into the intake manifold, and one in the oil filter assembly. Figuring out which one is the problem is a bit of a challenge, but usually it is the easily accessible one in the intake manifold. The downside of that is that VW won't make it available separately, and you have to buy an assembly (not cheap). Or you can buy a Dorman replacement that might work for a while.

Vacuum pump - the seals leak so you'll get a small oil leak from it eventually. I don't think this one sounds terrible. Kind of tedious to get to it, or so I've read.

Evap purge solenoid. Also easily accessible, if it is the one I'm seeing, and supposedly they're not real expensive. I probably need one because the evap purge won't clear in the readiness codes. I haven't priced one yet. I'm going to see if I can clean the old one, but I'll probably buy a new one first.

The timing chains. Well, that one should be able to be postponed if there is an easy way to replace the tensioners without pulling the engine. VW doesn't seem to do these very well. Not sure anyone else does either. As it is, you'll need to consider doing something in the 120k mile range, but that is hear-say and should be independently verified by someone who really knows what they're talking about (read: not me).

Other than that, it seems to drive nicely, it starts, runs, and my wife likes the way it drives, more that it looks good because I suggested we put the gold painted fat fives with snow tires on for the winter shoes. The car is dark blue and looks good with gold wheels.

I would prefer a stick, but she won't have it. So...

Anyway, I like the quiet, smooth, and wife's positive vibes. The mileage isn't horrid; it should improve once I get the P2279/P0171 codes settled, and with the local price differential between diesel and RUG, there really isn't a big advantage mileage wise with a diesel over the winter anyway.

Our example has 80K plus a little miles on it, so the bigger problems are still a couple of years off.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Cheers,

PH

 

[turbobrick240]

Thanks Powder Hound, that was very helpful! The timing chain thing has me a bit concerned since the golf actually has 119k miles. I'll dig a little deeper and see what I can find out about those chains. I was hoping it had 2.slow durability. The car I drove is basically a gasser twin of my tdi, same color even. I'm glad you're liking your 2.5 beetle. Should look pretty dope with those fat fives mounted!

 

[06bluebeetletdi]

If i had to get rid of my tdis, i would get a 2.5, super reliable as compared to 2.0 turbo especially with the 5 speed.

 

[turbocharged798]

I have a beater 09 2.5 gasser that was totaled fix-up. It currently has 240K miles.

Pros:
Decent power
Mechanically seems to hold up
Sounds great
Not horrible to work on
Cheap and plentiful
09G automatic seems to hold up

Cons:
Fuel Mileage blows, like 30MPG is a good tank, typically in the high 20's.
Timing chains fall apart on the 06 and earlier ones.
The 09G is a wonky clunky POS to drive.
Vacuum pumps are garbage and leak all over. I recommend doing a delete.

About sums it up.

 

[k^2]

Two months after I sold back my TDI station wagon to VW I bought a year newer 2.5L wagon. Yes I do miss the torque of the TDI. The car has been trouble free for last year and half. Just last month ago I started to have electrical problems with molten fuse but that is more of a general VW problem and not gas engine problem. As for the fuel economy I am light footed and my 1.5 year average is 31.4mpg, and my best tank 34.9. Right now in Michigan the spread in fuel price is over a buck per gallon between diesel and gas. So in terms of savings it is actually cheaper to drive on gas (summer time it will probably be different). What I like about the gas model is: no timing belt change, no dsg fluid change, no worries about the DPF or the dreaded HPFP blow up. The 2.5 is not a rocket but it is a competent engine.

 

[Powder Hound]

...
Timing chains fall apart on the 06 and earlier ones.
...
Vacuum pumps are garbage and leak all over. I recommend doing a delete.
...

So, if you do an r&r on the timing chain, would you then have a better set up, assuming you'd then have the latest and greatest running gear?

And how is a vacuum pump accomplished? Just delete it and ... ??? What do you do about the hole? And you just put up with the not quite as good brake boost?

Details, please!

PH

 

[Powder Hound]

... What I like about the gas model is: no timing belt change,

Yes, but timing chains don't last forever either. Something's got to be done at some point...

no dsg fluid change...

Yeah, VW said that about the 01M as well, and that sage marketing BS helped that transaxle become a pariah among TDI owners, and maybe it would have been so among gasser owners as well if only they kept their cars long enough. Forever fluid? Oh, please...

PH

 

[Powder Hound]

Update:

The Dorman part fixed my codes, but now resetting the readiness bits is being grumpy. Before, the evap purge solenoid wouldn't work so that bit wouldn't reset. Now, that bit is fine, but the secondary air pump test won't run. I think it might be because I skip right to that test in the VCDS program provided to reset those bits, and the car's ECU is being stubborn. But as it is, I can get the car inspected with one bit not reset (at least, that is the way it has always been before) so I'm going to quit worrying about it and schedule an inspection.

Cheers,

PH

 

[turbocharged798]

So, if you do an r&r on the timing chain, would you then have a better set up, assuming you'd then have the latest and greatest running gear?

And how is a vacuum pump accomplished? Just delete it and ... ??? What do you do about the hole? And you just put up with the not quite as good brake boost?

Details, please!

PH

Quick run down...mine is an automatic so you are actually supposed to remove the trans to access the vacuum pump per VW which is insanity. You can remove the old pump with the trans in place by dissembling the pump while it is bolted to the head and take it out piece by piece.

Problem is getting a new one in, some have taken a new one apart and piece it back in. I didn't like that idea and several aftermarket companies make a block off plate to delete and it fits in with the trans in place. Even better, the block off plates are cheaper than a new VW vacuum pump. You will have to T off the vacuum hose going to the throttle body so your brake booster will still work. Unlike TDIs, gassers make natural vacuum so I have no idea why VW used a pump. It just isn't necessary.


Timing chains are a major pain the butt because they are on the transmission side and once again you have to remove the transmission to do the chains. I believe VW does offer the parts to upgrade it to the 07+ setup which is a LOT better. You could also just put in a newer engine as they are stupid cheap in the yards now.

Yes, but timing chains don't last forever either. Something's got to be done at some point...

Yeah, VW said that about the 01M as well, and that sage marketing BS helped that transaxle become a pariah among TDI owners, and maybe it would have been so among gasser owners as well if only they kept their cars long enough. Forever fluid? Oh, please...

PH

I changed the fluid in the 09G twice since I had the car and it definitely helped the wonky shifting. I use Castrol Transmax which meets Toyota T-IV which meets the specs for the Asin who makes the transmission.

One thing is its just a standard torque converter auto so nothing really special about it. A dipstick would be nice instead of the stupid standpipe that they use nowadays.

 

[k^2]

Yes, but timing chains don't last forever either. Something's got to be done at some point...

Yeah, VW said that about the 01M as well, and that sage marketing BS helped that transaxle become a pariah among TDI owners, and maybe it would have been so among gasser owners as well if only they kept their cars long enough. Forever fluid? Oh, please...

PH

The DSG fluid change is required every 40k miles. That is way more frequent than regular transmission. Even thou I did it myself when I had my TDI it still was $180 proposition given that I already own the vag com. Timing chains generally don't snap and destroy the engine. They warn with noise when things go bad. One may add to the list the fuel filter change required.

 

[2000alhVW]

I have no idea why VW used a pump. It just isn't necessary.

really weird...

 

[oilhammer]

To the OP:

keep your TDI

To the general 2.5L I5 discussion:

The later ones are MUCH improved. In addition to a revised timing chain setup that is far less troublesome, they got 20hp more, and a variable displacement oil pump system... not sure how much that helps fuel economy, but probably doesn't hurt. That said, they have two oil pressure sensors now that can fail, as well as the cam phase solenoid that seems more failure prone on the later engines. Later engines also ditched the MAF, but can have issues with MAP sensors as the breathers allow oil into the low spot of the intake where the sensor sits. There is a TSB for updated software for this issue, but it doesn't help. Cleaning the throttle body and breather line and intake generally will resolve the issue for a couple services.

Vacuum pumps always end up leaking oil. Despite what the dealer tells you, you do NOT need to R&R the transmission to swap one if it is an automatic.

The Aisin 6sp autobox will need a valve body sooner or later... they start shifting really weird, slamming, flaring, etc. Axles are a pain to pop out for CV boot service.

Manuals are manuals... no issues generally with those.

In extremely cold weather, the breather control valve which is integral with the valve cover can stick, and break... causing a big oil leak that necessitates valve cover replacement.

Over zealous Iffy Lubers overtighten the oil filter causing the plastic housing to crack and leak oil. This is a labor intensive job to swap, as there is a lot of stuff packed in a very small area, including the oil cooler.

Some of these use secondary air injection (SAI), which can suffer from cracked tubes... worst on the NB.

On higher mileage ones, the accessory belts and tensioners and idlers get overlooked since they would not get messed with for a timing belt. Good idea to proactively replace those at around 120k miles or so, depending on environment.

Ignition coils can fail, same as most of the other modern VAG gassers. Cheap and easy.

These have a 10k mile service interval, just like the TDIs, but UNlike the TDIs, they will commonly consume some oil. They hold 5.5L at service, but can consume a couple liters between services... not as bad as the turbo 4, but still enough you should keep an eye on it.

The later ones (like many other VAG engines with spark plugs) have issues with the evap system leak detection pump, and of course they all have issues with the evap purge valve. Common, easy, not terribly expensive.

 

[k^2]

Just a bit of additional info. I also use to own an 2007 Rabbit/Golf with 150hp five banger. Interestingly enough my lifetime avg fuel economy was 28mpg. On my current station wagon it is 31. That is 10% difference on a bit heavier car. VW must have tuned that engine differently.

 

[Powder Hound]

...The Aisin 6sp autobox will need a valve body sooner or later... they start shifting really weird, slamming, flaring, etc. Axles are a pain to pop out for CV boot service...

Any hints on this? I 'get' to do one as the passenger side boot decided to give up early on my new-to-me 2006. And isn't there supposed to be a heat shield? I didn't see one when the inspector lifted it to show me the problem.

TIA and cheers,

PH

 

[oilhammer]

Sometimes you are better off to just remove the inner boot clamp and slide the inner joint apart, leaving the outer portion in the transmission. This is a pain to reclamp though unless the subframe is removed.... which sometimes I have to remove the subframe anyway to get the axle to pop loose.

Two pry bars, one above to keep the inner joint "square" in the case, one on the bottom to pop it out.

Other method is slide the joint apart, then put a slide hammer on a Vice Grip and pop the flange out that way. The driver's side is the one that is most difficult with the subframe in the way.