Oil for stock TDI's

[Joe_Meehan]

Sure there are lots of threads about oils. There are test that prove this or that oil is better at this or that attribute.

My question is this: Is there any oil that will produce meaningful differences in the life of the engine, mileage etc. when used in a stock engine under non-extreme conditions than any of the oils that meet VW's specifications for that car.

I am not looking for proof that this or that oil will give 10% less wear under this or that condition. I am looking for the average joe driver of a stock TDI engine. I don't want to see proof that an oil will give 10 % less wear, but will it give a meaningful longer life.

Let me make up some numbers to help explain what I am thinking of:

Let's say 70% of our TDI's end up being scrapped due to accidents. Another 20% due to the cost of needed repairs not related to engine wear. We are then left with 10% that are junked due to oil related failures that would not have occurred if they used this or that oil rather than another oil that meet VW's specifications for that car?

 

[Bob_Fout]

Wear and engine life are directly related. That being said... any of the oils that are "allowed" to be used (synthetic VW, ACEA or API of the correct specs and grade) will provide long engine life.

Most oil related problems, in the past, came from people using gasser oil, allowing the oil to get low, or not following the correct intervals.

 

[TornadoRed]

Joe, you have the benefit of hundreds of used-oil tests, with dozens of different oils and viscosities run in engines nearly identical to yours. And you've seen that, if the engine is running properly, the wear levels are nearly always acceptable.

If you use a synthetic diesel-rated oil, it should be fine. If you use a synthetic 5w40 and do not experiment with lighter oils, it should be even better.

 

[ruking]

Sure there are lots of threads about oils. There are test that prove this or that oil is better at this or that attribute.

My question is this: Is there any oil that will produce meaningful differences in the life of the engine, mileage etc. when used in a stock engine under non-extreme conditions than any of the oils that meet VW's specifications for that car.

I am not looking for proof that this or that oil will give 10% less wear under this or that condition. I am looking for the average joe driver of a stock TDI engine. I don't want to see proof that an oil will give 10 % less wear, but will it give a meaningful longer life.

Let me make up some numbers to help explain what I am thinking of:

Let's say 70% of our TDI's end up being scrapped due to accidents. Another 20% due to the cost of needed repairs not related to engine wear. We are then left with 10% that are junked due to oil related failures that would not have occurred if they used this or that oil rather than another oil that meet VW's specifications for that car?

Well that would mean that only (way) less than 10% would be concerned with "longer engine life" due to oil issues.

So for example, only 10 of a sample 100 would be the real population and of the remaining population (10) only 1 or 2 standard deviations would be affected. So if one standard deviation is 12.5% or 1.25 actual cars, 2 standard deviations would be 2.5 cars of the original 100 population. In that case, why even change oil, let alone even caring about whether it meets VW specifications?

 

[Joe_Meehan]

Well that would mean that only (way) less than 10% would be concerned with "longer engine life" due to oil issues. ...

I think you did not get my point. Don't worry, you certainly are not the first. I wish I could always write clearly enough that everyone could understand.

Anyway The point I am looking at is for the average Joe, does a 10% reduction in engine wear result in a meaningful longer life for the average car, remembering that a cars life is not dependent on any one factor, but rather many, including accidents, reduced reliability, increased maintenance/repair cost related to age etc.

 

[Bob_Fout]

I think you did not get my point. Don't worry, you certainly are not the first. I wish I could always write clearly enough that everyone could understand.

Anyway The point I am looking at is for the average Joe, does a 10% reduction in engine wear result in a meaningful longer life for the average car, remembering that a cars life is not dependent on any one factor, but rather many, including accidents, reduced reliability, increased maintenance/repair cost related to age etc.

A 10% difference is well within the margin of error for UOA.

But, a 10% reduction won't matter overall. If one goes from 500 ppm to 450 ppm, that's still bad (or 300 ppm to 270 ppm, 100ppm to 90 ppm). If you go from 30 ppm to 27 ppm, that's still good.

 

[Bob_Fout]

Put this another way: the difference between 20 ppm Fe and 40 ppm Fe (and appropriate ratios of other wear metals), while being 50% less, is functionally nothing. Engines with both levels of wear will last many hundreds of thousands of miles, probably even to the 1.2 million mile design spec.

 

[ruking]

I think you did not get my point. Don't worry, you certainly are not the first. I wish I could always write clearly enough that everyone could understand.

Anyway The point I am looking at is for the average Joe, does a 10% reduction in engine wear result in a meaningful longer life for the average car, remembering that a cars life is not dependent on any one factor, but rather many, including accidents, reduced reliability, increased maintenance/repair cost related to age etc.

Well no, your point was very clear, I did answer your question. I think you might just not like the answer !? So again no to..."does a 10% reduction in engine wear result in a meaningful longer life for the average car,"... (given the logic box you posed)

 

[Joe_Meehan]

Well no, your point was very clear, I did answer your question. I think you might just not like the answer !? So again no to..."does a 10% reduction in engine wear result in a meaningful longer life for the average car,"... (given the logic box you posed)

What was your answer? Don't feel locked into the "logic box" (I like that term) that I provided.

 

[ruking]

What was your answer? Don't feel locked into the "logic box" (I like that term) that I provided.

Well Joe, it is always good bantering with you. My answer remains NO to your question.

Over the years, I have to say that subscribing to fuel and lubricant topics has helped me in being at the very least a better informed consumer. On the other hand, that and $10.50 will buy me a L of Total 5w30 VW 507.00.

Hopefully, I am able to apply "best knowledge/practices," given a host of variables and probably more importantly GOALS.

Indeed the "logic box" (call it what one will) is important as it describes underlying assumptions.

So part of the "logic box" in your thread might be: (TDI related)

1. average US drivers do 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year. (before the economic malaise)
2. it would seem most folks keep their cars app 9.3 years (average age of the passenger vehicle fleet) . @ item one averages, we are talking 111,600 to 139,500 miles. (this will probably rise due to the economic malaise)

So now we are talking of app 12 to 14 oil and filter changes (10,000 miles recommended intervals) . If one sells or salvages the vehicle; flippantly who the hell cares after? To more conversationally, the oil change cycles are no longer the old owner's concern.

If the two item averages hold true, I have always scratched my head about why folks want to do 3,000, 5,000 OCI's when 10,000 is VW oem recommended!!!

 

[GibMir1]

I'm coming to the end of the road, warranty-speaking. I've done the oil changes at the recommended interval, 505.01, 5w-40 / 5w-30 at 10K miles. I've changed the DSG fluid at 40K, still waiting for the brakes to wear down enough to change those, too. With the panic of the cam crapping out, I had my mechanic measure the cam and inspect the lifters. "Normal wear" was the verdict - only about 1000th to 3000th of an inch wear in 59K miles. I recently raced to Detroit to see our Hawks win and averaged 46+MPG. I'm planning to keep the car going till it can't go no more. So for the Average Joe, does that answer your question?
Yeah, I'll switch to M1TDT as I like the results others are getting in terms of protection, but only if I can run that out to 10k miles OCI...

 

[TornadoRed]

Yeah, I'll switch to M1TDT as I like the results others are getting in terms of protection, but only if I can run that out to 10k miles OCI...

Easily. With used-oil testing, 15k+ miles might be safe.

 

[jettawreck]

Sure there are lots of threads about oils. There are test that prove this or that oil is better at this or that attribute.

My question is this: Is there any oil that will produce meaningful differences in the life of the engine, mileage etc. when used in a stock engine under non-extreme conditions than any of the oils that meet VW's specifications for that car.

I am not looking for proof that this or that oil will give 10% less wear under this or that condition. I am looking for the average joe driver of a stock TDI engine. I don't want to see proof that an oil will give 10 % less wear, but will it give a meaningful longer life.

Let me make up some numbers to help explain what I am thinking of:

Let's say 70% of our TDI's end up being scrapped due to accidents. Another 20% due to the cost of needed repairs not related to engine wear. We are then left with 10% that are junked due to oil related failures that would not have occurred if they used this or that oil rather than another oil that meet VW's specifications for that car?

Joe, as a "veteran member" of this forum if you haven't made up your mind, in your own mind at least, which oil is the "best oil" for your model/year TDI after all the "which oil should I use" discussions, I don't think anyone could give you any more reasons/data to convince you at this point. Really, don't think that hard about it. There are several excellant choices that exceed your requirements. Pick one for wharever reason and "know" that is THE BEST ONE.