Noise from ALH injection pump - replacement questions

[mrfiat]

Thanks. Oilhammer did you listen to the video? It is not a loud noise and doesn't sound like a playing card in bicycle spokes. I found a video of an ALH IP making the noise you described and it doesn't sound like my noise.

http://irata.com/ip.mp4

 

[oilhammer]

No. No speakers and any noise like that will end up fairly worthless across the intarwebs. I've heard oodles of clicking VE pumps.

 

[mrfiat]

You can hear the noise on the video pretty clearly. It is not a clicking noise. More like a rhythmic rattle.

 

[oilhammer]

Aural semantics I suppose. Clicking, rattling, whatever. DFIS will fix it, and tell you why.

 

[mrfiat]

Any idea on how many miles before the IP fails? For all I know it has been making this noise for years.

 

[KrashDH]

I don't hear anything that sounds out of the ordinary to me. Sounds like the regular clicking/clacking from an IP pump.
My car is in the shop getting an exhaust or else I'd start mine and post a video for comparison

 

[mrfiat]

Thanks. I have another ALH to compare it to and did. My other car doesn't make this noise. It is a slight rattling (shhh kind of noise).

 

[mrfiat]

I just called KermaTDI and they said if I replace my 10 mm pump with a 11 mm pump there is no need for a new tune. He said all I need to do is the normal IQ adjustment. I'm planning on taking my car on a 1400 mile trip soon and I will report back as to how it goes. When I stop, I will listen to the IP to see if the noise gets worse.

 

[oilhammer]

I never have had to do anything beyond an IQ tweak on any 11mm pump upgrades I've done either, and I have put a lot of them on manual cars. Stock, minor tuned, major tuned with bigger turbo, you name it.

 

[vandermic07]

One of my co-workers had an ALH with a pump (10mm) that was so loud you couldn't talk to each other standing in front of the running car if the hood was open. It was deafening.

My 01 golf is almost this bad. you have to raise your voice to talk standing in front. any closer its deafening.

Any idea on how many miles before the IP fails? For all I know it has been making this noise for years.

My Golf has been clicking loud for almost 275k miles (11yrs since I bought it). I don't believe it has ever changed intensity. definitely louder than my friend's 10mm pump and the 11mm pump on my JW. I am sure it needs replaced along with the injectors, turbo, .... Its gonna roll over 370k next week and its all original.
I don't think you need to light your hair on fire to get it done, but I would definitely make arrangements to fix it.

 

[krook]

If you look at the pump voltage map for a 11mm pump car and a 10mm pump car you'll see that for lower rpm/lower dosage you need to give more voltage for the 11mm pump to deliver the same amount of fuel, and for high quantities it actually needs less.

A decalibrated pump voltage map means the IP will not be injecting the amount the ECU thinks it is. This also decalibrates start of injection maps and boost maps which is not ideal. (But not tragic either, many cars run like this).

The plunger is not the only difference between the two pumps, the start of injection mechanism is a little bit different (11mm has a spring loaded advance valve), and so is the camplate which affects the duration of the injection. I'm not saying you'll be damaging the car in any way if you don't get a tune, you'll just not be getting the whole experience. If these cars were so sensitive to these things they wouldn't have lasted so long. Also swapping these maps is a really easy process and I don't see why it costs the amount you mentioned earlier, it should be much cheaper than that.

 

[mrfiat]

If you look at the pump voltage map for a 11mm pump car and a 10mm pump car you'll see that for lower rpm/lower dosage you need to give more voltage for the 11mm pump to deliver the same amount of fuel, and for high quantities it actually needs less.

A decalibrated pump voltage map means the IP will not be injecting the amount the ECU thinks it is. This also decalibrates start of injection maps and boost maps which is not ideal. (But not tragic either, many cars run like this).

The plunger is not the only difference between the two pumps, the start of injection mechanism is a little bit different (11mm has a spring loaded advance valve), and so is the camplate which affects the duration of the injection. I'm not saying you'll be damaging the car in any way if you don't get a tune, you'll just not be getting the whole experience. If these cars were so sensitive to these things they wouldn't have lasted so long. Also swapping these maps is a really easy process and I don't see why it costs the amount you mentioned earlier, it should be much cheaper than that.

Oilhammer and KermaTDI both disagree with you. I never got the price to change the tune from KermaTDI, since they said the tune would be the same regardless of which pump I used.

 

[mrfiat]

I took my car on a 120 mile trip yesterday and checked it for the IP noise at 60 miles and at 120. No noise at all.

 

[KrashDH]

Oilhammer and KermaTDI both disagree with you. I never got the price to change the tune from KermaTDI, since they said the tune would be the same regardless of which pump I used.

@burpod can clear this up better than anyone on the forum, but if you change from the 10 to 11mm pump, if you want to get the most it has to offer, you should re tune. Do you have to? No. Sorry to break it to you, but Kerma really isn't an elite tuner. They do not care whether your vehicle is running great. They sell a minimal amount of tunes to make maximum money. The less work they do, the less time, more profits. Good business model. But @krook s post has some good technical information.

 

[mrfiat]

Thanks for your thoughts on the tunes.

My experience is that the Kerma tune has been wonderful on my sedan. The car runs flawlessly and gets excellent FE. Very little smoke.

My other ALH (wagon) has a Malone tune and the car idles rougher (not sure if that has anything to do with with the tune, smokes much more, and the FE is 3-4 mpg lower. My wagon does have bigger injectors than the sedan and a VNT17 turbo in it though. I'm happy with the Malone tune minus the extra smoke and lower FE.

 

[burpod]

you most definitely need a *proper* re-tune to make your car run optimally with a pump change.. sadly, many tuners don't do this and will use the same pump map regardless of pump. i've even seen pump maps by some of the most reputable tuners here that use the same pump map for even different pump and nozzle setups. same pump map for 11mm + .230s as for 10mm and .215s as for 11mm and .184s... *sigh* and also use the same timing maps to boot :/

 

[burpod]

Thanks for your thoughts on the tunes.

My experience is that the Kerma tune has been wonderful on my sedan. The car runs flawlessly and gets excellent FE. Very little smoke.

My other ALH (wagon) has a Malone tune and the car idles rougher (not sure if that has anything to do with with the tune, smokes much more, and the FE is 3-4 mpg lower. My wagon does have bigger injectors than the sedan and a VNT17 turbo in it though. I'm happy with the Malone tune minus the extra smoke and lower FE.

i encourage you to take boost logs of each of your cars see my boost log thread. i would love to see how well they are performing with some stress-testing

 

[Nero Morg]

Sorry to break it to you, but Kerma really isn't an elite tuner. They do not care whether your vehicle is running great. They sell a minimal amount of tunes to make maximum money. The less work they do, the less time, more profits. Good business model. But @krook s post has some good technical information.

Words to live by. Wish this was better known around here. How the kings can fall.

 

[Fahrvegnugen]

My original 10mm pump started leaking so I replaced the two most common seal failures. It went fine. It has always made a clattering noise and it is deafening inside buildings. Works great. I got to play with the impinger that can pop out if you aren’t careful and cause a runaway. I think mpg went up a bit. I’d use dfis if this blows up. But I dont think that’s what will kill it. It has a loud clatter like in the linked video. I had to adjust iq and advance timing and that was it. Definitely ecu control on 01 Vw pump. Adjusting pump screws is mechanical and so is hammer mod but it is all electronically monitored

 

[Rinderle_77]

Stumbled across this thread in my search for the solution to my problem...

'00 NB Manual, so 10mm pump. Pump died, talked to DFIS, quoted $9-1300 to reman my pump. Local salvage yard said they had a "good used pump" for $85, so I picked it up. Problem is that their policy (ins related) is they have to pull parts, so they pulled the pump. In doing so, they pulled the gear AND the hub...

Talked to DFIS about my thoughts of carefully lining up the keyway "marks" inside the hub with the woodruff key slot in the shaft, and if that would put the pump close enough to then fine tune with VCDS, which they thought would actually work. So, thats what I did.

At this point, I learned that I actually got an 11mm pump from an Auto.

Amazingly enough, it starts and runs (VCDS on order...I know, I know...) but is rough at idle, which goes away as soon as throttle pedal is touched, which led me to this thread, where I'm learning about the voltage map (I assume we're dealing in micro volts...) issue.

Where is the best place to go for said "tune" as I also deleted the EGR while everything was apart cleaning intake, etc (267k miles)

Thanks everyone!

 

[KrashDH]

Stumbled across this thread in my search for the solution to my problem...

'00 NB Manual, so 10mm pump. Pump died, talked to DFIS, quoted $9-1300 to reman my pump. Local salvage yard said they had a "good used pump" for $85, so I picked it up. Problem is that their policy (ins related) is they have to pull parts, so they pulled the pump. In doing so, they pulled the gear AND the hub...

Talked to DFIS about my thoughts of carefully lining up the keyway "marks" inside the hub with the woodruff key slot in the shaft, and if that would put the pump close enough to then fine tune with VCDS, which they thought would actually work. So, thats what I did.

At this point, I learned that I actually got an 11mm pump from an Auto.

Amazingly enough, it starts and runs (VCDS on order...I know, I know...) but is rough at idle, which goes away as soon as throttle pedal is touched, which led me to this thread, where I'm learning about the voltage map (I assume we're dealing in micro volts...) issue.

Where is the best place to go for said "tune" as I also deleted the EGR while everything was apart cleaning intake, etc (267k miles)

Thanks everyone!

Before you run the car anymore, you should PROPERLY set the plunger lift/clocking of the hub. If not, there's potential for premature wear or internal damage.
There is an official way to do this. You can live with the "eyeball and pray" method if you'd like, but to set it properly takes a tool you can get for $40 and a little bit of time. You can ignore everything in the thread I've linked, just go to the end where I set the plunger lift/proper hub clocking.

IP Pump Tear Down and Seal Replacement, Bench DIY

Since I have been upgrading a lot of parts lately on the Golf for power, it was apparent that I was going to need to swap my manual's 10mm pump from an 11mm. A new pump was out of the question for me with the laundry list of other things I have been purchasing for the car, so I had to seek out a...

forums.tdiclub.com

 

[Rinderle_77]

Before you run the car anymore, you should PROPERLY set the plunger lift/clocking of the hub. If not, there's potential for premature wear or internal damage.
There is an official way to do this. You can live with the "eyeball and pray" method if you'd like, but to set it properly takes a tool you can get for $40 and a little bit of time. You can ignore everything in the thread I've linked, just go to the end where I set the plunger lift/proper hub clocking.

IP Pump Tear Down and Seal Replacement, Bench DIY

Since I have been upgrading a lot of parts lately on the Golf for power, it was apparent that I was going to need to swap my manual's 10mm pump from an 11mm. A new pump was out of the question for me with the laundry list of other things I have been purchasing for the car, so I had to seek out a...

forums.tdiclub.com

Thanks for the resource. I definitely see the purpose of doing it properly, by setting it with a dial indicator, and DFIS did say the same. However, they were confident that as long as the markings from the woodruff key slot were clear, and I could accurately line that up, it would be ok. Their reasoning being that there is play in the lock pin as well, which is why VCDS is required to set the IQ. They said if it was too far off, it simply wouldn't start. Which it does start, and runs very well...except at idle, which I 100% believe is due to the voltage map.

 

[KrashDH]

Thanks for the resource. I definitely see the purpose of doing it properly, by setting it with a dial indicator, and DFIS did say the same. However, they were confident that as long as the markings from the woodruff key slot were clear, and I could accurately line that up, it would be ok. Their reasoning being that there is play in the lock pin as well, which is why VCDS is required to set the IQ. They said if it was too far off, it simply wouldn't start. Which it does start, and runs very well...except at idle, which I 100% believe is due to the voltage map.

Yeah voltage map will likely need to be adjusted with the hammer mod. I was having some no-start conditions after the rebuild and it was due to the pump voltage being WAY out of wack.

So you could actually see markings from the woodruff key slot from the shaft on the internal ID of the flange? I guess I'm not understanding how you are seeing that because they wouldn't be visible. You have to baseline align the woodruff key on the shaft centered with the marking on the housing, then while it's held on what you think is centered on that mark, install the flange with the timing pin and torque. The plunger lift value is not a lot (.085"). It would be hard to hit that by eye. Can you do it that way though? Sure. If it runs and works I suppose you're all good. Also I think you meant the play in the lock pin is a little bit ok because you set timing via rotating the shaft, not IQ (IQ is set by hammer mod then potentially adaption). But if that plunger lift isn't correct from the beginning, you could be out of sync for your injection timing events/fuel delivery. Basically it would make your pump not running at optimal efficiency. But regardless, it will run, and many have successfully (as in the car will run and the pump will work) installed that gear flange just by using the eyeball method.

 

[Rinderle_77]

Yeah voltage map will likely need to be adjusted with the hammer mod. I was having some no-start conditions after the rebuild and it was due to the pump voltage being WAY out of wack.

So you could actually see markings from the woodruff key slot from the shaft on the internal ID of the flange? I guess I'm not understanding how you are seeing that because they wouldn't be visible. You have to baseline align the woodruff key on the shaft centered with the marking on the housing, then while it's held on what you think is centered on that mark, install the flange with the timing pin and torque. The plunger lift value is not a lot (.085"). It would be hard to hit that by eye. Can you do it that way though? Sure. If it runs and works I suppose you're all good. Also I think you meant the play in the lock pin is a little bit ok because you set timing via rotating the shaft, not IQ (IQ is set by hammer mod then potentially adaption). But if that plunger lift isn't correct from the beginning, you could be out of sync for your injection timing events/fuel delivery. Basically it would make your pump not running at optimal efficiency. But regardless, it will run, and many have successfully (as in the car will run and the pump will work) installed that gear flange just by using the eyeball method.

Woodruff key slot was (as its now installed and therefore covered) clearly visible inside hub; ie. corrosion where the key slot on the shaft is not in contact with the inside bore of the hub. I used a very small straight edge to extend those marks to outside of hub where visible, and performed the same with marking the key slot fully to the end of the taper on the shaft. That allowed alignment of the hub with where it had previously been on the shaft. At that point, the hub retention nut was partially tightened on the shaft. Then rotated the small amount needed to lock the pump, then torque the shaft nut. After that, pump was installed into car, and bled according to all proper procedures, followed by bleeding injector lines/injectors.

Car starts quickly and easily, sounds perfect unless idling with foot off the pedal. Push the pedal 1/4", the idle stays at ~800 RPM but idle smooths out.

Throttle response is crisp, and no more smoke than what there was ever before.

The IQ has therefore got to be fairly close, and why I believe the issue is the micro voltage map between the pedal and the pump.

 

[KrashDH]

Woodruff key slot was (as its now installed and therefore covered) clearly visible inside hub; ie. corrosion where the key slot on the shaft is not in contact with the inside bore of the hub. I used a very small straight edge to extend those marks to outside of hub where visible, and performed the same with marking the key slot fully to the end of the taper on the shaft. That allowed alignment of the hub with where it had previously been on the shaft. At that point, the hub retention nut was partially tightened on the shaft. Then rotated the small amount needed to lock the pump, then torque the shaft nut. After that, pump was installed into car, and bled according to all proper procedures, followed by bleeding injector lines/injectors.

Car starts quickly and easily, sounds perfect unless idling with foot off the pedal. Push the pedal 1/4", the idle stays at ~800 RPM but idle smooths out.

Throttle response is crisp, and no more smoke than what there was ever before.

The IQ has therefore got to be fairly close, and why I believe the issue is the micro voltage map between the pedal and the pump.

If you're happy with it then all is good.
I chose to purchase the correct tools for the job and set it back to factory spec so I wouldn't have any worry moving forward.
That pump voltage is going to depend on where you set that IQ. Hammer mod with adaption set to the spec number to get as close as possible for the appropriate voltage for your maps.

 

[Rinderle_77]

If you're happy with it then all is good.
I chose to purchase the correct tools for the job and set it back to factory spec so I wouldn't have any worry moving forward.
That pump voltage is going to depend on where you set that IQ. Hammer mod with adaption set to the spec number to get as close as possible for the appropriate voltage for your maps.

I do believe it's close enough to not be an issue as far as wear like you spoke of in your first response.

I am still looking for a source for the proper map for the 11mm pump, vs the 10mm pump as discussed in early posts in this thread. Is that map part of the "tune" in the ECU? Is it as simple as inputting proper values in VCDS? Is it a throttle pedal adaptation?

 

[krook]

Yeah voltage map will likely need to be adjusted with the hammer mod.

You can't change the voltage map by the hammer mod, that's for calibrating a pump with the same plunger/camplate to a vehicle. What you can do by the hammer mod is give an offset to the voltage map over the whole range. That is not the equivalent way of creating a right, calibrated voltage map and flashing it to the car when a bigger pump is installed.

 

[KrashDH]

You can't change the voltage map by the hammer mod, that's for calibrating a pump with the same plunger/camplate to a vehicle. What you can do by the hammer mod is give an offset to the voltage map over the whole range. That is not the equivalent way of creating a right, calibrated voltage map and flashing it to the car when a bigger pump is installed.

In my rebuild, I set the plunger height per Bosch's nominal value. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Hammer mod doesn't offset your voltage from nominal, it sets the pump voltage. You can "offset" it with adaption to the values. The pump voltage needs to be set based on the tuning maps.

I think we are talking about 2 different things. I'm talking about hammer modding the pump to get the voltage to where it needs to be for the maps you are running. I think you are talking about the voltage map tune. Of course in that case the hammer mod is not going to change the "tune" in any way and you have to have a correct tune for running with the new pump and whatever other mods you are running, but there's an ideal voltage at the pump that needs to be in sync with whatever tunes your are running.

 

[Rinderle_77]

You can't change the voltage map by the hammer mod, that's for calibrating a pump with the same plunger/camplate to a vehicle. What you can do by the hammer mod is give an offset to the voltage map over the whole range. That is not the equivalent way of creating a right, calibrated voltage map and flashing it to the car when a bigger pump is installed.

Exactly what my understanding of the operation is. That's why I asked my original question of, "where can I get the proper voltage map?"

So, do you have any direction in that regard?

 

[mrfiat]

Update: My injection pump ran flawlessly on the 1425 mile trip. It isn't making that extra noise currently. 46.5 mpg was my best day on this trip in my sedan. My wagon's best is 44 mpg. My average speed was about 70 mph. I still had over a 1/4 tank after 600 miles. My A/C started freezing up during the trip so I had to turn the A/C off every time the air flow decreased too much. (a pain, but manageable) The compressor died on me 2/3rds of the way through the trip. Luckily it was hot outside only half of that last leg, but I was a bit hot. I'm getting normal pressure on the low side and almost no pressure on the high side. I had to buy some extra tools and I will replace the compressor in the next day or two. Fun, fun.