Noise from ALH injection pump - replacement questions

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
If you plan on driving it another 10 years, DFIS is the way to go. It could cost a thousand, but it will be good as new and they'll have it back to you in roughly 10 days.. Replacing seals only works for leaks. You have options, I'm sure you know, take your chances
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
If there is nothing special, then why does Bosch sell such an expensive fixture for VE and VP pumps? Seems they are screwing a lot of shops out of a lot of money if there is nothing to it.

And I am genuinely asking because I do not know. I trust DFIS to do the job. I've seen the equipment, nobody besides an actual Bosch shop has this equipment (they are picky about who they even will sell the stuff to).

They've also got equipment for K-jet stuff, as well as the old mechanical gasoline injection systems (like BMW and MB used).
 

KrashDH

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Location
Washington
TDI
2002 Golf
If there is nothing special, then why does Bosch sell such an expensive fixture for VE and VP pumps? Seems they are screwing a lot of shops out of a lot of money if there is nothing to it.

And I am genuinely asking because I do not know. I trust DFIS to do the job. I've seen the equipment, nobody besides an actual Bosch shop has this equipment (they are picky about who they even will sell the stuff to).

They've also got equipment for K-jet stuff, as well as the old mechanical gasoline injection systems (like BMW and MB used).
To make money? That's what they're in business to do.
What does the Bosch magic fixture do when it comes to the pumps? Probably a faster, more efficient way to rebuild. That's all good if you're in it as a shop to make money, quick turnaround. I'm guessing they can probably bench test pumps off the car. Do they? Who knows, they don't say what a "rebuild" includes on their site. I'm sure it varies depending on the pump. For those that have had their pumps done, did they break down what they actually did and provide the consumer with an itemized receipt? I would be interested

I understand having Bosch equipment when it comes time to flow injectors properly. Yes, you want a dedicated bench setup for that. You can't even get the equipment without having the shop being Bosch certified, which is training, certs and more $$. Bosch isn't screwing any shops, the shops willing to pay to have the Bosch certification will likely get all that specific business. Can't blame them for that, there aren't very many Bosch certified shops. Kind of puts you in an elite category for those kind of repairs.

That being said, I have nothing against DFIS as I mentioned. I send potential customers their way. I'm trying to bring to light that our pump is not a magical creature. If you've got the means to open one up and inspect, you can pretty easily tell what condition it's in and choose to repair or replace. They are also very open to answering questions. I had a couple different good conversations during my rebuild validating my process and what I was seeing with the internals of the pump with them. Cost me a few OEM replacement parts/gaskets/seals/etc to get my pump fresh again with some verification of no worn internal components.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
So you don't know either. That was kind of what I was expecting. I know they do test the pump "off the car", because they spin it up just as it would be if it was on the car, and of course on the electronic ones, there is the plug in computer aspect to it, too. But beyond that, I am going by their word. If I was closer, I would have already paid them a visit. I've been to the local Bosch shop before, but they wouldn't invest in the electronic upgrade to their test benches.... and now, shocker, they are out of business. But beyond the electronic parts, the meat and potatoes underneath was similar, and I watched them set up and calibrate the old inline Bosch pump from an OM617 engine, and it was a very involved process of tweaking and adjusting that nobody anywhere would have been able to do on their own. They also did all my IDI VE pumps, and it was a similar process although it doesn't use the same type of adjustment setup (obviously).

I'm just hoping DFIS stays in business for the foreseeable future.
 

KrashDH

Veteran Member
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Dec 22, 2013
Location
Washington
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2002 Golf
So you don't know either. That was kind of what I was expecting. I know they do test the pump "off the car", because they spin it up just as it would be if it was on the car, and of course on the electronic ones, there is the plug in computer aspect to it, too. But beyond that, I am going by their word. If I was closer, I would have already paid them a visit. I've been to the local Bosch shop before, but they wouldn't invest in the electronic upgrade to their test benches.... and now, shocker, they are out of business. But beyond the electronic parts, the meat and potatoes underneath was similar, and I watched them set up and calibrate the old inline Bosch pump from an OM617 engine, and it was a very involved process of tweaking and adjusting that nobody anywhere would have been able to do on their own. They also did all my IDI VE pumps, and it was a similar process although it doesn't use the same type of adjustment setup (obviously).

I'm just hoping DFIS stays in business for the foreseeable future.
Special tooling is always set up for efficiency with what the business and the customer/stakeholder needs. Taking apart and installing parts. Special tools to increase efficiency. I have a good idea of what goes on behind the curtains seeing that I design tooling. To take apart and put things together. That's just one small part of what I do.

I never claimed to know what DFIS specifically has. I bet I could take a good guess at it and come pretty close. I'm not going to even try and figure out what they have for electronics, other than something designed by Bosch that mimics the input and output signals to the computer. That's cool they can bench test, more power to them. That's why they are the best at what they do.

I watched them set up and calibrate the old inline Bosch pump from an OM617 engine, and it was a very involved process of tweaking and adjusting that nobody anywhere would have been able to do on their own
That's all fine...cool that you got to witness that. But you don't need to have all of the Bosch equipment to tear down and build these pumps. We're talking about the 1.9 VE pumps in these vehicles.

Is there something that bother's you that I'm trying to help out the forum by saying that a person can take apart one of these and inspect the internals with a bench vise and a few common (and one specific) tool? If it can save people money, they have the determination and bit of mechanical aptitude, why not help others out? This is a forum where we're supposed to share information, not try and keep it secret. Bosch is one company that closely guards a LOT of their procedures. Mostly so you have to go to a certified shop to get it fixed. I do all of my detailed tech write ups on this forum and others, so people have the option to choose the direction they want to go. Most will continue to send their business to places like DFIS and I don't blame them. But those that want to dive in and learn, and have a completely refreshed IP, can do it if they so choose.

I hope they stay in business as well. Small shops that do great work are hard to come by or have been pushed out of business over the last few years. I don't think anyone likes seeing that
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
It bothers me any time I get cars towed in here that the owners have done severe, significant damage to things, because of what they read on the internet. Yes. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, I've seen this applied MANY times to TDI VE pumps if you want to get particular.

All I am intent on making clear here is that "taking apart, cleaning, and putting back together with new seals" is NOT the same as "rebuilding". And in the case of a diesel engine's injection pump, you can do something to them that can become way more than "well, that didn't work".

I am not trying at all to keep any secrets... boy if I were, I would not spend any time here other than to say "here is where I work, bring your car to me". I don't do that, I have for over 20 years done my best to do exactly as you say, and help others out. I just don't think this is an area that many DIYs should venture. My experience has shown me that all too often. A screwed up pump can grenade an engine (and by grenade, I mean "rods out the side of the block" type) in literally seconds.

I have also sent DFIS lots of these "completely refreshed" pumps, only to have them say they were severely messed up, or X was missed, or Y wasn't replaced, etc. I've probably sent DFIS more Bosch VE pumps than any singular person on this forum, although as the VE TDIs slowly are lost due to whatever reasons (crash, rust, tornado, tooef), that figure is not climbing like it once was. Also, in the post-ULSD rollout world, the sudden spontaneous leakages we saw have mostly all been handled by now... although I just did sell off a couple of my customers' cars both sub-200k that amazingly still have their original pumps intact. Both 2003s. And both were sold with the caveat that at some point, they'll need to be addressed. Again, I keep no secrets. ;)
 

krook

Active member
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Location
Hungary, Europe
TDI
AFN
To clarify, Bosch VE is a purely mechanical injection pump, and they do need calibration on a bench, there's no way around it. The pumps the 1Z/AHU/AFN/AVG/ALH/... come with are called VP, VP37 to be exact. For the VP37, quantity control is done by the HDK and therefore you can probably get away with just setting the plunger lift mechanically and later IQ with VCDS.

VE:




VP37:
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
How do you call it "purely mechanical" when it has a quantity adjustor that's controlled by the vehicle's ECU?
 

KrashDH

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Location
Washington
TDI
2002 Golf
All I am intent on making clear here is that "taking apart, cleaning, and putting back together with new seals" is NOT the same as "rebuilding".
Ok then. What in your mind, on these pumps, constitutes a rebuild? Replacing a damaged part with OEM? If you're trying to say I only resealed and cleaned, that was part of what I did. Forget about the whole resetting the plunger height to OEM specs? How about lapping the supply pump plate surfaces?

Please explain the difference. You know what people do when they rebuild transmissions? Replace any worn parts. Same transmission housing. Yes there's certified professional shops that do this. But plenty DIY'ers have rebuilt auto and manual transmissions alike.

If your definition of a "rebuild" is replacing all of the internals with new OEM internals, then fine. But that's no different then taking a pump, removing components, putting it back together and ensuring some stack ups of certain parts are the same as what came out of it. Setting plunger lift.

If you were to price out replacing all new OEM components inside the pump individually, there's no way it's going to cost you $1300, because I priced out components for a 10mm conversion (you don't need many parts at all, there's a lot you can reuse). You're better off paying full price for new OEM.

You know why some people screw their stuff up after watching something on the Internet? Because it wasn't done right. Either the instructions lacked detail and clarity, or that person screwed up and missed a step. Most stuff on the Internet has terrible, incomplete write ups. Have you ever tried doing a tech write up? It takes a lot of time an energy to be clear, concise, and thorough. It was part of my job as a manufacturing engineer for years. The results would be much more catastrophic if I had screwed up than just a messed up VE pump.

If people want to be scared of it and not do it, that's fine, it's their money and peace of mind. Sounds like that's where you're at. But don't lump this into the "it can't be done". Everyone have a choice and I chose to give people the tools to be able to do it if they wish.
 

krook

Active member
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Location
Hungary, Europe
TDI
AFN
How do you call it "purely mechanical" when it has a quantity adjustor that's controlled by the vehicle's ECU?
That is not true for any Bosch VE injection pump, only for Bosch VP pumps (VP30, VP37, VP44, etc.). See the image I attached. Quantity adjustment is done purely mechanically there.
 

KrashDH

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Location
Washington
TDI
2002 Golf
To clarify, Bosch VE is a purely mechanical injection pump, and they do need calibration on a bench, there's no way around it. The pumps the 1Z/AHU/AFN/AVG/ALH/... come with are called VP, VP37 to be exact. For the VP37, quantity control is done by the HDK and therefore you can probably get away with just setting the plunger lift mechanically and later IQ with VCDS.

VE:




VP37:
They classify the VP37 though in the VE/series family, do they not? Yes they are physically different pumps.
Edit: FWIW and clarity, when you actually go through the process of tearing down and "putting back together" these pumps, yeah there is plunger lift and IQ. In most cases you'll need to hammer mod it to get it right. You can fine tune with VCDS if needed when you get it close, but I was able to get it where I needed with the mod leaving the adaption value set to nominal
 
Last edited:

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Plenty of people have M&P'd timing belts and gotten away with it, too. And plenty haven't. It still is not the correct way to do it.

I could literally write a book on the Crimes Against Mechanicals I have seen.

And no, lots of transmission rebuilders DON'T reuse the case, because they actually know what to check and where to look to see if the case can even BE reused. (incidentally, this is becoming an issue in the domestic hot rod world, as good TH350 and TH400 cores are being depleted, and they've long since been out of production).

We can agree to disagree, and this is largely semantics, but I am just providing the other side.

And yes, a VP is an extension of the VE line. VE just is short for verteiler, which is a German word for distributor.
 

KrashDH

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Location
Washington
TDI
2002 Golf
Plenty of people have M&P'd timing belts and gotten away with it, too. And plenty haven't. It still is not the correct way to do it.

I could literally write a book on the Crimes Against Mechanicals I have seen.

And no, lots of transmission rebuilders DON'T reuse the case, because they actually know what to check and where to look to see if the case can even BE reused. (incidentally, this is becoming an issue in the domestic hot rod world, as good TH350 and TH400 cores are being depleted, and they've long since been out of production).

We can agree to disagree, and this is largely semantics, but I am just providing the other side.

And yes, a VP is an extension of the VE line. VE just is short for verteiler, which is a German word for distributor.
Well yes, if you're rebuilding a transmission you check all of the bearing bore diameters to ensure that you are going to get the appropriate bearing fit when you rebuild. Of course you won't (or would hope a shop doesn't) reuse a case that has out of spec diameters for critical things like bearing fits. But after that, it's just a case. Clearance fits. Our little pumps don't have that. Yes you want to ensure the piston bore is not damaged for us, that the timing pin doesn't have any slop in its bore in the roller ring, etc. There are a few things to check along the way.

Agree to disagree yes, I'm on board with that.
Just think then. With my services of doing a complete write up, I'm doing DFIS a favor. They'll get more customers when people screw up their pumps.
But those that complete the process just fine, will be satisfied that they did it correctly themselves.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
when people screw up their pumps
Which I would imagine happens more times than not. You have obviously done your due diligence to get it right. IPs and turbos are no way as simple as carburetors, alternators, starters, etc. With the cost of those 2 parts, I tip my hat to anyone successfully repairing those.
My first TDI (99.5 J) wore out the pump in less than 50k miles. DFIS replaced most all of the internal components, they said the thing had started eating into the case. Can only guess it was the LSD back then.
 

KrashDH

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Location
Washington
TDI
2002 Golf
Which I would imagine happens more times than not. You have obviously done your due diligence to get it right. IPs and turbos are no way as simple as carburetors, alternators, starters, etc. With the cost of those 2 parts, I tip my hat to anyone successfully repairing those.
My first TDI (99.5 J) wore out the pump in less than 50k miles. DFIS replaced most all of the internal components, they said the thing had started eating into the case. Can only guess it was the LSD back then.
I believe it! The first 11mm pump I opened up had some bad gouging on the housing walls where shrapnel was sent through the pump and damaged a lot of the internals. Damaged the roller plate and rollers as well as a few other items. Plunger keeper pin in the roller plate had a burr and you couldn't push it through the plate to release the plunger assy. So I called that a loss. There are a few salvageable parts like the head and such on that pump for converting my 10mm to an 11mm, but then again the new OEM pieces I would need to do that would cost me more than I could pick up a used 11mm pump for. Just gotta play the ROI game with that so for the time being I'm just keeping the 10mm as is, and I have a bunch of 11mm paperweight parts.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
As I understand it the 10mm pump is satisfactory for all but the highest HP mods.
You know you could start a little side business, most folks have no bidness inside those pumps beyond leaky seals.
Most folks would be happy to spend 4 or 5 hundred to have a working pump.
The way the VE engine holds up, they'll be around for a while.
 

KrashDH

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Location
Washington
TDI
2002 Golf
As I understand it the 10mm pump is satisfactory for all but the highest HP mods.
You know you could start a little side business, most folks have no bidness inside those pumps beyond leaky seals.
Most folks would be happy to spend 4 or 5 hundred to have a working pump.
The way the VE engine holds up, they'll be around for a while.
Lol yeah, potentially. Although I'm kind of doing a few headlight retrofits on the side when I have time and a few other things. I'd help out some local TDI people if need be but I can't see myself doing it a lot, lots of other maintenance on my other vehicles and things I have to do. Between that and work not much time at the end of the day. Might be more do-able when I have a shop to work as well :)
 

mrfiat

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
Update on my car:

I have been driving it around town a bit and listening for noises from the injection pump. I did notice a different noise from the injection pump (10 mm) area today. It was a low volume noise that went ssshhhh, pause, ssshhhh, etc. I fired up my other ALH with the 11 mm pump and it does not make that noise. The clatter from the engine/injection pump is much, much louder than this new noise.

What are people's thoughts on this new noise? (could be the old noise coming back, but the old noise was louder, I think)

Thanks.
 

mrfiat

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Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
The reason that I didn't post a video is because the noise is subtle and I don't think you would be able to hear it over the clatter of the engine. I just went out to try and record the noise and it is no longer there. Last time I heard it the engine was hot. I will take it out again and see if I can get a recording.
 

krook

Active member
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Location
Hungary, Europe
TDI
AFN
Maybe it's been recommended here but replacing your fuel lines directly before and after the IP with clear ones can serve with useful information about the state of the fuel system. In a good functioning system there's not a single bubble of air in the system at any time.
 

mrfiat

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Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
Hi. There was a little bit of air in the fuel lines. I replaced the fuel filter tee and no more air. That made no difference in the noise. I made a video and you can hear the slight rattling noise from the pump. I tried to pin down exactly where it is coming from on the pump, but the pump is too noisy to tell. I'm 90% sure the noise is coming from the pump.


What does everything think about the noise? The car is running perfect.
 

mrfiat

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Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
I just found another thread that said it could be the alternator bearings. I have never replaced the alternator in the six years I have owned this car.
 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
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Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
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2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
Take the serpentine belt off, see if you still have the noise. If you do, it's either the pump, or something driven by the timing belt. Idlers, tensioner, water pump....
 

mrfiat

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
Take the serpentine belt off, see if you still have the noise. If you do, it's either the pump, or something driven by the timing belt. Idlers, tensioner, water pump....
Thanks. I will do that and report back. It seems like a pretty minor noise. But not normal.

The noise is intermittent, so I will wait until I hear it again.
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
Yep, if you remove the belt and it goes away that's probably the pulley on the alternator. Reasonably inexpensive but you do need the two bits to get it off and put the new one back on. SOMETIMES it can be done with the alternator in the car (if its not stuck on too tightly -- I've had to pull it and put the bits in a bench vise to get enough torque to remove one before.)

I didn't hear anything entirely obvious to point at in your video...
 

mrfiat

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Location
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TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
Yep, if you remove the belt and it goes away that's probably the pulley on the alternator. Reasonably inexpensive but you do need the two bits to get it off and put the new one back on. SOMETIMES it can be done with the alternator in the car (if its not stuck on too tightly -- I've had to pull it and put the bits in a bench vise to get enough torque to remove one before.)
Thanks. I have a spare alternator, but if it is the problem then I will replace it and then replace the pulley on the bench.
 

mrfiat

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Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
I pulled the belt and it is not the alternator. After carefully listening around the engine, the noise appears to be coming from the top of the injection pump.

Has anyone had this noise from their injection pump before?
 
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