No stick shift diesels

[bhtooefr]

Except the TDI results are invalid - get back to me when they're actually in compliance.

 

[tikal]

I doubt is going to wipe out the 21% gain in mileage vs the Mazda 3 though. My guess is about 5% hit to the mileage and some to performance. Maybe in about six months we are going to start getting some new data for the fixed TDIs.

 

[Mark_J]

Not sure about 2015 and newer TDI's but I own a 2014 Passat SE TDI 6 speed manual.

 

[bhtooefr]

Also, worth remembering that gasoline has 12-14% less energy and CO2 emissions per gallon, so that needs to be accounted for too.

 

[tikal]

Yes I agree bhtooefr that there are trade offs between diesel and gasoline emissions. Besides CO2, gasoline has still the problem of VOC or volatile organic compounds. Also gasoline is not yet ultra low sulphur.

But getting back to the topic of the Mazda 3 gasoline being more efficient than an equivalent modern TDI. Out of curiosity I went to Fuelly and I looked up latest Mazda 3 but with a diesel engine. There are a few entries but enough to confirm that they were averaging around 40 MPG. Ok they are not in the US but in Europe where the emission standards are not that far from the ones in the US so I think it is a fair comparison.

Once gasoline vehicles will require to have GPF (gas particle filters) then their efficiency will diminish and the gap vs light duty diesel engines will widen even more.

 

[South Coast Guy]

Are we talking about transmissions or emissions? I am confused.

 

[bhtooefr]

So, gasoline is capped at 80 ppm sulfur out of the refinery, 95 ppm downstream, absolute maximum, in the US, which is quite a bit higher than diesel (at 15 ppm at the pump), but averages are also regulated for gasoline. Currently, the average is required to be 30 ppm on an annual basis, and starting January 1 of next year, it'll be 10 ppm on an annual basis. (Small refiners get until 2020 to comply with the 10 ppm average, however.)

Considering that "low sulfur" diesel was 500 ppm, gasoline isn't that far off of ultra-low sulfur diesel.

VOCs, yes, are a huge concern, though, and it's why my Prius evacuates its fuel tank before it allows me to fill up.

 

[Miser_TDI]

My wife is extremely uncomfortable driving an automatic car. We just drove an auto up to Butler, Pa to pick up our new Mazda3 sGrandTouring. At one point, she came off the main highway and pulled the gearshift down from Drive over to the "-" paddle area. Luckily, she did not slam her foot on the brake in going for the clutch. She's been know to do this with autos.

Don't feel bad. I have a 2004 5spd manual, and recently purchased a 2012 6spd DSG. I swap the cars on occasion (have about a 50 mile round trip to work, 25 each way) and when I get into the DSG from driving the manual let's just say a couple of times it has been .... interesting ... and boy do the 2012's brakes work well!

-Miser

 

[tikal]

My apologies for the side discussion.

I wonder if in the near future we would get more specialized independent TDI mechanics to offer manual transmission swaps as a service to make up for the lack of new TDI models (if some make it back in future years) offered with stick shifts?

 

[BrentRN]

Word is that Chevy will offer a 2017 Cruze with 1.6 TDI and possibly a manual transmission.

http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/chevrolet/cruze/2017-cruze/2017-cruze-diesel/

 

[South Coast Guy]

Word is that Chevy will offer a 2017 Cruze with 1.6 TDI and possibly a manual transmission.

http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/chevrolet/cruze/2017-cruze/2017-cruze-diesel/

Looking at Chevy website; three models of Cruze available with manual. None of them have diesel engines.

 

[South Coast Guy]

My apologies for the side discussion.

I wonder if in the near future we would get more specialized independent TDI mechanics to offer manual transmission swaps as a service to make up for the lack of new TDI models (if some make it back in future years) offered with stick shifts?

This sure looks expensive. First, you have paid a premium of @ $1100 to buy the car with a DSG. Now you are going to replace that? Gotta be around $1.500 to $2,500 for the swap. And the result is you have a car that loses (not looses) some of its resale value.

 

[BrentRN]

Looking at Chevy website; three models of Cruze available with manual. None of them have diesel engines.

They haven't been confirmed but talk was that a diesel would be available by the end of this year. I think the Opel engine diesel version has to be CARB certified before they would announce it.

 

[tikal]

This sure looks expensive. First, you have paid a premium of @ $1100 to buy the car with a DSG. Now you are going to replace that? Gotta be around $1.500 to $2,500 for the swap. And the result is you have a car that loses (not looses) some of its resale value.

I was thinking more of a 5 or 6 year old TDI CR and specially the wagon versions that one could buy in the future at a competitive price and then convert to manual to keep as long as possible.

Yes the swap is going to be around $3000 but on the long run you gain reliability, not needing to do the transmission service every 50K miles or so plus better performance (subjective I know) and maybe a little bit better mileage depending how you know to drive a manual transmission.

 

[South Coast Guy]

I was thinking more of a 5 or 6 year old TDI CR and specially the wagon versions that one could buy in the future at a competitive price and then convert to manual to keep as long as possible.

Yes the swap is going to be around $3000 but on the long run you gain reliability, not needing to do the transmission service every 50K miles or so plus better performance (subjective I know) and maybe a little bit better mileage depending how you know to drive a manual transmission.

40K service on transmission runs $200+ at independent shop. (You would have to do 15 servicings to break even.) Autos are faster than manuals in acceleration - just look at auto mags and their results. Mileage is reduced. Assume 2mpg. How long does it take to break even on mileage? Reliability is unknown.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I don't think a manual swap on a common rail car is going to be as easy as it is on MKIV cars. The engine and transmission electronics are integrated, and swapping out the transmission will require some programming changes that may be very difficult. I know that a manual swap on a PD is a lot more difficult than it is on an ALH for this reason. I wouldn't count on doing it.

 

[KERMA]

After driving TDIs with DSG/S-Tronic for the last two months, I can honestly say I hate the thing. Downshifts all the way to 1st at every stop, upshifts between 1600 to 1800 rpm unless I'm practically flooring it, just retarded. No wonder you have to have the fluid replaced every 40k miles. It's WAY too "busy."
I actually prefer the CVT in my wife's Subaru over a DSG.

that was my first impression of the factory DSG as well. Not only did it upshift upshift upshift till you were 35 mph in 6th @1200 rpm, it REFUSED to downshift unless you absolutely MASHED the pedal and held it for a while. So most of the time you end up driving with a gutless wonder around town. For example, try moderately accelerating out of a corner, not going to happen.

So I um... "adjusted" it so now it's more to my liking.

 

[KERMA]

My apologies for the side discussion.

I wonder if in the near future we would get more specialized independent TDI mechanics to offer manual transmission swaps as a service to make up for the lack of new TDI models (if some make it back in future years) offered with stick shifts?

No need for manual swaps.
The DSG is fantastic when properly "adjusted". They really are an excellent transmission and I actually prefer the DSG over a manual now. It's just the way they come from the factory that's wrong, but that can be corrected.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

No need for manual swaps.
The DSG is fantastic when properly "adjusted". They really are an excellent transmission and I actually prefer the DSG over a manual now. It's just the way they come from the factory that's wrong, but that can be corrected.

Your opinion. I don't agree. If it doesn't have three pedals, I don't want it. Lots of others feel the same way.

 

[South Coast Guy]

that was my first impression of the factory DSG as well. Not only did it upshift upshift upshift till you were 35 mph in 6th @1200 rpm, it REFUSED to downshift unless you absolutely MASHED the pedal and held it for a while. So most of the time you end up driving with a gutless wonder around town. For example, try moderately accelerating out of a corner, not going to happen.
So I um... "adjusted" it so now it's more to my liking.

Not sure what model VW you were driving, but that isn't my experience. Light pressure on the pedal produced an almost instantaneous downshift of at least one gear. Flooring the pedal confuses the transmission and results in a delay in acceleration.

 

[turbobrick240]

I certainly agree. I'll take a dual clutch over a slushbox in a car, but three pedals is just much more engaging. It will be a sad day when we can't get any cars with a manual.

 

[KERMA]

regarding the logistics of auto-manual swaps in CR (for those who "don't care how it drives I want a 3rd pedal")

It would be easiest to get a junkyard ecu from a manual car and either immo delete it or transfer the vin to the new ecu (which is actually not as easy as it sounds to transfer that data). It's not possible to clone the ecu like you can the older ones because of "read only" areas that are tied to a specific tricore processor that can't be copied to a new ecu. There's more differences between otherwise identical manual/dsg software versions, than there are changes that "most" chiptuners ever make in their "highest stage" tunes. And the differences include areas of the ecu that are not normally "tuned" which puts it out of the realm of ordinary chiptuning. In other words it's not too easy or straightforward to do.

Therefore any swap would involve a complete ecu swap and immo work.

It's not very practical to do.

I've made more than one believer out of skeptics who were considering a manual swap. Including some with an "other" DSG tune who were ready to just throw in the towel because they thought a dsg just simply couldn't be awesome after all even with a "dsg tune".

 

[turbocharged798]

Your opinion. I don't agree. If it doesn't have three pedals, I don't want it. Lots of others feel the same way.

This. I ended up with an almost free 09 Jetta 2.5 gasser(long story) that I am trying not to swap in a manual but the autojunk transmission is pissing me off.

 

[tomo366]

I have a 2015 Jetta SEL TDImanual 6 speed loaded.....Keeping it taking the Money and getting the Fix and then getting the real fix......it could be for sale for the right money.....

 

[Jimmy Coconuts]

Autos are faster than manuals in acceleration - just look at auto mags and their results. Mileage is reduced. Assume 2mpg.

The DSG should be quicker from a stop, since it basically has a "granny" gear for 1st gear, and the DSG's 6th gear is more like the manual's 5th gear. As for actual fuel economy, I consistently get about 42 mpg with the manual, and about 36 mpg with the DSG. Same driver, same commute. The extra 5-6 mpg is a nice cherry on top, but the driving experience is the real payoff, for me at least.

 

[tikal]

I don't think a manual swap on a common rail car is going to be as easy as it is on MKIV cars. The engine and transmission electronics are integrated, and swapping out the transmission will require some programming changes that may be very difficult. I know that a manual swap on a PD is a lot more difficult than it is on an ALH for this reason. I wouldn't count on doing it.

Ok thanks for the explanation. Well that's a bummer :-(

In terms of the PD I know that after some learning curve several TDI specialists can do a manual swap on a Passat B5.5 fairly routinely (yes the ECU has to be reprogrammed also).

 

[Max Period]

I also don't see any stick shift motorcoachs (at least MY2000 or later) in North America either. The vast of them use Allison B500R 6-speed automatics (torque converter locks up at ~30 km/h).

In summer 1995 I did ride a motorcoach (probably 10+ years old) that had a manual transmission, and probably a 2-stroke detroit.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

A friend of mine who has his Class 1 license and drives trucks and heavy equipment drove my Passat home from my work the other day because I ended up with two cars there. He commented after we got home that he hadn't driven a manual in a year or so...the last time he drove one of my cars. None of the trucks or equipment he drives are manual. Haven't been for years.

Doesn't mean I don't still like them. The most recent 911 with the 7 speed is a dream car for me.

And Max, I remember commuter buses here in MA that were 2-stroke DD and manual. I read somewhere you were supposed to shut the engine off before shifting into 1st. Given the grinding that took place when drivers tried it I'd say that was true.

 

[2013 Golf TDI]

I own 3 TDIs with manuals and 2 TDIs with DSGs. The DSG is not superior to the manual in ANY measurable way, in my opinion. Costs more to purchase, costs more to service and the EPA estimates are WAY off. My manuals average 44-46 HWY while the DSGs average 35-36. I suspect this is due to the DSGs turning about 2600 RPMs at 75 when the manuals are turning about 2100.

 

[RalphVa]

Looking at Chevy website; three models of Cruze available with manual. None of them have diesel engines.

Cannot get a Cruze with heated seats and 6M. Also, passenger seat on the Cruze is non reclining.

In a recent comparison test in Motor Trend, a 2017 Cruze beat out both the Mazda3 and VW Jetta. Civic came out on top. When I looked at a 2016 Civic, only the basic model had 6M.

Cruze dealer said no diesels in 2017.