No more Diesel for US from VW

Status
Not open for further replies.

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
That's a tad bit harsh. I don't think it makes drivers dumber. I mean self driving cars aren't out yet, so somebody still has to maneuver the vehicle unless you drive a Tesla. And my new car(not a VW) is a 6-speed, so that keeps me busy. They don't need all these options, but it makes for one comfortable ride.
.
I stand by what I said. One of the biggest reason's for crash's here is Cel phones and other gadgets. Car's aren't supposed to have every bell and whistle known to man, it makes you sleepy, lol.

Just drove a 2016 Civic, what a PITA to navigate the radio and turn signal camera's, really?
 
Last edited:

ROD-TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Location
Nothern Virginia
TDI
Mk7 Golf S TDI 6-speed, 2017 Tiguan Limited, 2015 Golf R DSG/DCC/NAV.
SNIP... Just drove a 2016 Civic, what a PITA to navigate the radio and turn signal camera's, really?
Yes, very poor user interface on a 2017 Honda HR-V we recently test drove. What really upset us was its CVT performance which was AWFUL, barely able to get out of its own way as we attempted to merge on an interstate. We test drove it because we can't get a new 2017 Tiguan TDI DSG, which was our plan. We're keeping our 2015 Golf S TDI 6-speed and our 2015 Golf R DSG, of course, but the several CVT's we've tested are really LAME and out of the question!
-Rod
 

Graham Line

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Location
Pacific Northwest
TDI
'12 Golf TDI 6M
Sure there is. Quite a few new gassers are only a few mpg behind with about the same power. And regular unleaded is cheaper. Don't get me wrong, I like TDI's, but the maintenance cost and high risk of something expensive breaking might not be worth it.
Looking at TDI vs TSI numbers on Fuelly, the TSI mileage seems to run 20 to 25 percent lower than comparable TDi models -- the higher EPA numbers don't seem to exist in real-world driving.
 

ApriliaNut

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Location
SoCal
TDI
06 pkg 1 Jetta 191k w/Malone Stage 2
Looking at TDI vs TSI numbers on Fuelly, the TSI mileage seems to run 20 to 25 percent lower than comparable TDi models -- the higher EPA numbers don't seem to exist in real-world driving.
That's okay. Trump will take care of that LOL!!!:)
 

Scratcher

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
Grand Rapids MI
TDI
2011 SportWagen TDI
My prediction is that diesel fuel prices will rise so exponentially that returns on fuel cost will outweigh MPG returns. This is what happened in my country of origin. Making diesel ownership only a marginal advantage. Before manufacturers started making small diesel engines, diesel fuel was approximately half the price of gasoline. Since the late 80's the price has crept up with increased production of small DERV engines. I know it comes down to basic economics of supply and demand, but if you do the math by bringing in emission equipment maintenance, its almost cost prohibitive. I don't often make political statements but its liberal fascism in the extreme. The EPA doesn't want diesel and they will do everything in their increasing power to curb its production for small engines because that's what they can hit right now.
 
Last edited:

autdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2004
Location
Alabama
TDI
2000 NB, 2003 NB, 2006 Touareg, 2015 Jetta, 2015 Jetta
Looking at TDI vs TSI numbers on Fuelly, the TSI mileage seems to run 20 to 25 percent lower than comparable TDi models -- the higher EPA numbers don't seem to exist in real-world driving.
Having had 2 as long term rentals, you are correct, in real driving, the MPG is awful in comparison to a TDI.
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
This issue of 'plain vanilla' gasoline engines catching up to light duty diesel engines in terms of efficiency keeps coming up but I do not think the laws of physics will allow it. With a diesel engine maybe 'you can have your cake and eat it too' but with a gasoline engine, that is unlikely in my view.

Also since, in North America, we get such a meager selection of light duty diesel passenger cars then it does appear that hybrid gasoline cars are the most efficient (for example the Prius and the like). However in other parts of the world they have similar size vehicles with smaller diesel engines and with hybrid like technologies that can compete head to head with gasoline hybrid passenger cars and give you an overall better performance (torque).

Of course electrical vehicles are not included in this discussion :)
 

wxman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1999
Location
East TN, USA
TDI
Other Diesel
I agree.

The supposed gasoline engines closing the efficiency gap on diesels issue really hasn't materialized so far, even with GDI now dominating gasoline engine technology.

There are only 13 diesel vehicles officially certified in the U.S. for 2017 (actually 11 since the GM Colorado and Canyon pickup trucks are twins). The gap between the diesel and gasoline (ALL GDI) versions of the same vehicles is almost 36% based on official EPA mileage data, which is actually greater than the 30% greater that's been thrown around for over 20 years. Yes, some of those are 4-cylinder diesels vs. 6-cylinder GDIs, but even in the case of comparable performance, the gap is still over 30%.
 

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
To add, some of the gas alternatives do get great highway mpg but they tank in the city, whereas diesel really shines. Not a DI gas engine but my brothers MDX literally empty's the tank in 300 km's in the city but highway, gets 700+ km's. :eek:
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
To add, some of the gas alternatives do get great highway mpg but they tank in the city, whereas diesel really shines. Not a DI gas engine but my brothers MDX literally empty's the tank in 300 km's in the city but highway, gets 700+ km's. :eek:
Yes, SUV/truck + gasoline engine + automatic transmission = very mediocre MPG :(
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
My prediction is that diesel fuel prices will rise so exponentially that returns on fuel cost will outweigh MPG returns. This is what happened in my country of origin. Making diesel ownership only a marginal advantage. Before manufacturers started making small diesel engines, diesel fuel was approximately half the price of gasoline. Since the late 80's the price has crept up with increased production of small DERV engines. I know it comes down to basic economics of supply and demand, but if you do the math by bringing in emission equipment maintenance, its almost cost prohibitive. I don't often make political statements but its liberal fascism in the extreme. The EPA doesn't want diesel and they will do everything in their increasing power to curb its production for small engines because that's what they can hit right now.
Gasoline prices will no doubt be up there too but diesel will still have an advantage in terms of cost per mile.

IMHO, the gas/diesel price gap in will narrow starting in 2017 when gasoline in the USA has to become ultra-low Sulphur in preparation for DI gassers to be equipped with GPFs. I'm predicting there will be a small but permanent price increase due to the cost of Sulphur removal on top of all other factors affecting gasoline prices, similar to what happened to diesel fuel in 2006. Exactly how much of a gasoline price increase we will see is unknown. In my area diesel prices are a little higher than regular unleaded gasoline but lower than mid-grade gasoline. I'm predicting the coming gasoline price increase will help level the playing field for fuel prices.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5189958&postcount=101

Have fun! :)
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
To add, some of the gas alternatives do get great highway mpg but they tank in the city, whereas diesel really shines. Not a DI gas engine but my brothers MDX literally empty's the tank in 300 km's in the city but highway, gets 700+ km's. :eek:
That's not a characteristic of the fuel... that's a characteristic of the car. The BMW 335d gets ~50% better mpg on the highway... only 23 mpg in the city.
 

Dannyboy

Veteran Member
Joined
May 25, 2013
Location
Mb
TDI
2014
We need more effective pollution, have you driven around Vancouver lately during rush hour? ;-)
I did 2 weeks ago and pollution was the last thing I was worried about, Although the air is amazingly clean in the city center. Noticed a very high percentage of vw/audis and Asian cars to American cars there.
 

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
That's not a characteristic of the fuel... that's a characteristic of the car. The BMW 335d gets ~50% better mpg on the highway... only 23 mpg in the city.
You just proved and agreed with my point. :confused:
 

oprn

Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
Coronation Alberta
TDI
2002 Jetta
"pretty small"???? Worldwide oil consumption right now is right around 100 million barrels a day! (42 gallons per barrel). Some is used in plastics manufacturing, but the vast majority is burned, and even dismissing the emissions, that is a HUGE amount of heat being released into our ecosphere.
According to scientists that study such things just one active volcano puts out as much emissions in one day as all of humanity does in one year. Then there are the forest fires... I don't know the stats on those but it has to be up there too.
 

oprn

Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
Coronation Alberta
TDI
2002 Jetta
My prediction is that diesel fuel prices will rise so exponentially that returns on fuel cost will outweigh MPG returns. This is what happened in my country of origin. Making diesel ownership only a marginal advantage. Before manufacturers started making small diesel engines, diesel fuel was approximately half the price of gasoline. Since the late 80's the price has crept up with increased production of small DERV engines. I know it comes down to basic economics of supply and demand, but if you do the math by bringing in emission equipment maintenance, its almost cost prohibitive. I don't often make political statements but its liberal fascism in the extreme. The EPA doesn't want diesel and they will do everything in their increasing power to curb its production for small engines because that's what they can hit right now.
Exactly right!
A few years back propane conversions became very popular in this country. It was 1/2 the price of gasoline and many people converted especially companies with fleet vehicles. A very clean burning fuel with low emissions, lower maintenance and the engines lasted much longer. The downside was a bit less power and mileage when used in a standard gasoline engine with no modification. The price of propane(originally virtually a waste product)steadily increased until there was no advantage to converting and now no one uses it for vehicles any more. It stopped almost over night and has never come back. Now we are into a glut position again and the price is back down.

Whenever someone brings up the "supply and demand" argument, I have to laugh! I can't help myself! No one is going into the gas station and demanding to pay higher than advertised price! I haven't - have you?

We are being hood winked by the "supply and demand" thing, what is really going on is "WE have the supply and WE demand... " nothing less, nothing more!
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
According to scientists that study such things just one active volcano puts out as much emissions in one day as all of humanity does in one year. Then there are the forest fires... I don't know the stats on those but it has to be up there too.
Burning plants is carbon neutral.
Most vulcanism is ongoing and can be considered background.
There are occasional large eruptions but not on the order of the constant fossil fuel consumption.
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
According to scientists that study such things just one active volcano puts out as much emissions in one day as all of humanity does in one year. Then there are the forest fires... I don't know the stats on those but it has to be up there too.
Here are the stats;

Burning Oil; ~10B tons of CO2/yr
All Fools Fuel combined; ~40B tons of CO2/yr
Volcanoes; ~0.2B tons of CO2/yr

So... humans emit ~200x more CO2 annually than all volcanoes combined...

Burning forests doesn't really count since you're not adding CO2 to the biosphere...it's getting shuffled around. Just like the spa pump can't cause the spa to overflow. But even emissions from forest fires is only ~20B tons/yr... depending on the year.

It's not the heat of combustion that's the problem... it's the radiative forcing. Burning 80M Barrels of oil releases ~450M BTU of energy. The 27M tons of CO2 released increases the radiative forcing of the atmosphere ~5E-6w/m^2. That's >70 TRILLION BTU of redirected thermal energy... not once... but annually.

It's Science....
 
Last edited:

VWag

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Location
Malibu, CA
TDI
2014 Passat
You all bring up some excellent points. Driving about 3k per month I can tell you that maintenance costs have been more than triple what I have spent on gasser.

That said, once a week fill ups can't be beat. Net net - close to break even.
 

Cseress

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2016
Location
Sarasota FL
TDI
2013 Jetta Sportwagen TDI
SO disappointed with VW and my local dealership

I drove a Volvo V40 diesel in the UK for 6 years, selling it when I left with 108,000 miles on the clock and averaging 45 mpg. So, in 2013, I was excited to buy a VW Sportwagen tdi, especially with the giddy-up acceleration and handling. However, I have painfully learned (financially too) that if you have a problem with your VW tdi, especially during Dieselgate, you are cast out of the herd, left to fend for yourself.

I registered my interest in the VW buyback through their claims portal initially in July, I think. I didn't complete it because I knew that it was not finalized but my VIN was registered. Sept 26 of this year, my engine began to fail due to HPFP. When I bought the car, no one told me that this had been "an issue" before (you may know that there was a federal safety investigation into this VW diesel issue, beginning in 2009 and they did not close the book on it until dieselgate in 2015). NO ONE DISCLOSES !!

The 2013s do not have a 100,000 mile 10 year warranty because VW has always contended that it was primarily a mis-fueling problem (which was NOT the findings in the report; it points to a Bosch injector) and since they created the "smart" gas tanks, they believe it is solved.

Since my VIN was registered, they told the local dealership (Sunset) that they would not grant good will to fix my car ($7800 or 30% of its buy back value). Sunset then started closing doors on me. They offered me their $25 rental rate at enterprise, which I used for two months. They offered to "make sure your car gets on that buy back truck" and they offered me 100% financing on a new vehicle (since I needed the trade in value of the car to get a new one).

But there's no offer yet, and I'm going into month 3 off the road. I really believe that VW and their dealerships OUGHT TO DISCLOSE the HPFP failure risk. Many 2013+ Passats are failing (google it) and we're all left out here.

In the meantime, I am off the road, racking up expenses and no one will "do the right thing," which would be to fix my car on their dime since they did not disclose! :mad:
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
There are so many conflicting stats on what emissions are from so many "experts" what can you believe?
??? such as ???

The EPA, CARB, NAS, USGS, NOAA, NASA and others appear to be in broad agreement...
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
There are so many conflicting stats on what emissions are from so many "experts" what can you believe?
Okay, let's wait until we have a runaway CO2 driven surface temperature rise.
I kind of like the Earth's weather the way it is now.
I mean, it would be handy to have Venus' atmospheric condition of 900+ degrees
if you run a smelter, but that's about the only plus.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top