dadsdiesel
Veteran Member
Very nice explanation above xsbank - enjoyed reading it!
No Block Heater?
- Thread starter Ian_W
- Start date
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groovy04pd
Member
the car is an auto, the dealer installed the zero-start inline since the block-heater dilema came up and I was promised a "block-heater" and paid for it when i ordered the car in the fall of 2003
I will try to get some pics
I will try to get some pics
04Wagon
Veteran Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2004
- Location
- St Catharines
- TDI
- 2004.5 Jetta Wagon 5spd Tip, Black Leather on Spice Red.
Thanks, a couple of pics would be great. What wattage and shape is the heater and were did they mount it as there is nowhere near the same amount of room under the battery box now as there was pre 04?
pruzink
Veteran Member
The main reason that I want to install a block heater is so that I don't have to scrape the windshield and so that the car will warm up faster. I will add the Stanadyne additive to the fuel for some extra anti-jelling protection over those cold winter months.
VicTDI
Veteran Member
Subject: No Block Heater?
Any follow up on this XS?? I'm really curious about these electric coolant heaters that you are talking about, controlled by the heat selector setting. Never heard of it anywhere else so would like to hear what you've found out. Thanks
Any follow up on this XS?? I'm really curious about these electric coolant heaters that you are talking about, controlled by the heat selector setting. Never heard of it anywhere else so would like to hear what you've found out. Thanks
xsbank
Veteran Member
Subject: No Block Heater?
I looked all he way through the owner's manual (a sorry document it is too, regarding the diesel stuff) trying to find out the source of my info, all to no avail. Where it came from is my tech - I had been concerned that the temperature never came up to "normal" operating temperature in my Golf if I just noodled around town. He put the car on the Vag-com thing and found no errors. He stated that I was not to worry, that the car was operating normally, and if I wanted cabin heat I was to turn the 'A' knob to full hot, thereby energizing the 'afterplugs'. I know that these exist, as a friend of mine has a 2001 and he has found them in his official VW tech manual for 2001 Golf. He swears they can be seen if you examine the coolant system, and they bear a very strong resemblance to the ignition glowplugs. I am not sure if there is 2 or 3 of these...He was not able to confirm in his manual that you were required to select full on with the 'A' knob. For myself, it really has been unseasonally warm here and I have not given it the -20 acid test yet, but going to work in the morning, even before the engine feels like its happy to be running, I have cabin heat within a block of home. Not enough to be comfortable but easily as good or better than my gas 1.8 Jetta, which I never plugged in.
I looked all he way through the owner's manual (a sorry document it is too, regarding the diesel stuff) trying to find out the source of my info, all to no avail. Where it came from is my tech - I had been concerned that the temperature never came up to "normal" operating temperature in my Golf if I just noodled around town. He put the car on the Vag-com thing and found no errors. He stated that I was not to worry, that the car was operating normally, and if I wanted cabin heat I was to turn the 'A' knob to full hot, thereby energizing the 'afterplugs'. I know that these exist, as a friend of mine has a 2001 and he has found them in his official VW tech manual for 2001 Golf. He swears they can be seen if you examine the coolant system, and they bear a very strong resemblance to the ignition glowplugs. I am not sure if there is 2 or 3 of these...He was not able to confirm in his manual that you were required to select full on with the 'A' knob. For myself, it really has been unseasonally warm here and I have not given it the -20 acid test yet, but going to work in the morning, even before the engine feels like its happy to be running, I have cabin heat within a block of home. Not enough to be comfortable but easily as good or better than my gas 1.8 Jetta, which I never plugged in.
VicTDI
Veteran Member
Subject: No Block Heater?
I can't believe that something that would make such a dramatic difference to driver comfort wouldn't be documented in the owners manaul and made a selling point, especially where winters are cold. I'll check my PD Jetta in the morning, crank the heat to high and see if I get cabin heat any quicker but I'm not holding my breath. Besides, if these heaters did exist, then all you'd have to do is start the car, let it idle with the heater turned to high and not only would the cabin heat but the engine would heat too and I just don't think that's the case. On idle I don't think it will warm up whether set to cold or hot. Will let you know tomorrow.
I can't believe that something that would make such a dramatic difference to driver comfort wouldn't be documented in the owners manaul and made a selling point, especially where winters are cold. I'll check my PD Jetta in the morning, crank the heat to high and see if I get cabin heat any quicker but I'm not holding my breath. Besides, if these heaters did exist, then all you'd have to do is start the car, let it idle with the heater turned to high and not only would the cabin heat but the engine would heat too and I just don't think that's the case. On idle I don't think it will warm up whether set to cold or hot. Will let you know tomorrow.
weedeater
Top Post Dawg
Subject: No Block Heater?
Yes. But 'cold' means something like 0F. I've never measured where the activation point is. But I believe it is based on how long VW engineers think it takes for the engine to raise the coolant temp to produce heat (say 100F) from a starting point. If the ECU determines that it will take more than X amount of time, it turns on the plugs. Actually, it assumes the rate of heat increase is fixed at load.
Lorne M
Veteran Member
I am seriously jealous of all you folks with new Passat TDi's.
Interesting topic - particularly since I am wrestling with the decision of whether to keep my "96 Passat TDi w/ 225k km (just did it's first manifold clean 2 weeks ago, so it seems like a new car) OR bite the bullet and grab a new Passat TDI Wagon before VW does something stupid like cancelling all TDi's to North America now that the new platform is on the horizon (a la out 1997 experience) ?????
Other than capital cost and the fact that my present Passat is such a (trouble free) joy to drive, my main sticking point was the forced Tiptronic Tranny (I really would prefer a plain-Jane standard tranny).
I lived 27 years in the Northwest Territories and while there drove 3 different VW TD's and TDi's since 1990 and a Toyota LandCruiser Diesel since 1988. Believe me guys NO ONE HAS SEEN REAL SUSTAINED COLD for long periods of time or knows how debilitating it can be. With all due respect to your posted concerns re starting and cabin heat (what's that) the new TDi's will start and run flawlessly for 95% of you lucky owners. (Ontario, Quebec and Alberta owners - I'm sympathetic). It seems the main problem for the rest of you will be dodging the fast growing palm trees.
I have absolutely no doubt that VW has engineered a continuely improved TDi and that the new TDi's will start and run (reliably every time) at increasingly colder temps. After all, VW used to regularly bring 1/2 doz+ vehicles through the NWT to do winter testing ---IN March - the warm winter month . Oh well, they almost got it right).
I always tried to plug my VW diesels in below minus 20C - 25C even though you could usually "nurse them" and get them started at colder temps by double cycling glow plugs as noted by others - IF your battery was real good. However the real problem at those and lower temps was that my wife and daughter simply could not get the vehicles in gear to get out of the driveway - the tranny fluid was porridge. The Toyota was / is a real wuss and demanded to be plugged in at even warmer temps.
I suspect at real cold temps you would get the new TDi's started but the stresses on the tiptronic tranny could be a problem. Unfortunately an in-line (engine fluid) heater will (unless you have it on for a VERY long time indeed) not provide sufficient heat transfer through the engine to the tranny to thaw the fluid - and I supect, it will provide only minimal heat through the block, pan and into the engine oil. All the discussion I have seen re the special spec requirement for TDi engine oil SCREAMS to me that lubrication is CRITICAL on these engines. Because of the extreme mechanical, and thermal stresses at start up I find it difficult to see how the super-duper new spec oil CAN protect the engine and how the super - cooled tranny fluid will transmit power and not cause slippage / burning.
The most effective (not pretty) engine heaters I have ever used have been pan heaters (even used a couple low wattage ones on transmissions). The effect is to (even using synthetic oil) have instant oil pressure and therefore instant lubrication at the most critical time for engine wear. I found that at any temperature above (warmer than) about - 45C one hour's heat with a pan heater would give me acceptable viscosity at startup at make starting far less painful. Beyond -45C give'er 2 hours,
As an aside, I have put over 200K km of long distance cold - middle of the winter travel on my diesels without the use of antigel or lubricating additives, and my vehicles have perforned flawlessly. Our fuel was P40 or P50 Diesel. (Pour point -40 or -50C same as the home heating fuel. A typical drive would be a -35C, one way, 15-16 hour, 1600 km non-stop (except potty and fuel) breaks) mad dash to civilization. The closest shop that can even spell VW was 1600 km away so reliability was a REAL big issue.
Bottom line IMHO, if you live where it is COLD, use an engine heater - one that will give you instant oil pressure at start up (pan heater??). If you live where it is REAL COLD find a way to give your Tippy tranny fluid a temperature boost (garage,). For standard trannies - drive 'em - as soon as you can get'em in gear - AFTER you have sufficient engine oil pressure.
Interesting topic - particularly since I am wrestling with the decision of whether to keep my "96 Passat TDi w/ 225k km (just did it's first manifold clean 2 weeks ago, so it seems like a new car) OR bite the bullet and grab a new Passat TDI Wagon before VW does something stupid like cancelling all TDi's to North America now that the new platform is on the horizon (a la out 1997 experience) ?????
Other than capital cost and the fact that my present Passat is such a (trouble free) joy to drive, my main sticking point was the forced Tiptronic Tranny (I really would prefer a plain-Jane standard tranny).
I lived 27 years in the Northwest Territories and while there drove 3 different VW TD's and TDi's since 1990 and a Toyota LandCruiser Diesel since 1988. Believe me guys NO ONE HAS SEEN REAL SUSTAINED COLD for long periods of time or knows how debilitating it can be. With all due respect to your posted concerns re starting and cabin heat (what's that) the new TDi's will start and run flawlessly for 95% of you lucky owners. (Ontario, Quebec and Alberta owners - I'm sympathetic). It seems the main problem for the rest of you will be dodging the fast growing palm trees.
I have absolutely no doubt that VW has engineered a continuely improved TDi and that the new TDi's will start and run (reliably every time) at increasingly colder temps. After all, VW used to regularly bring 1/2 doz+ vehicles through the NWT to do winter testing ---IN March - the warm winter month . Oh well, they almost got it right).
I always tried to plug my VW diesels in below minus 20C - 25C even though you could usually "nurse them" and get them started at colder temps by double cycling glow plugs as noted by others - IF your battery was real good. However the real problem at those and lower temps was that my wife and daughter simply could not get the vehicles in gear to get out of the driveway - the tranny fluid was porridge. The Toyota was / is a real wuss and demanded to be plugged in at even warmer temps.
I suspect at real cold temps you would get the new TDi's started but the stresses on the tiptronic tranny could be a problem. Unfortunately an in-line (engine fluid) heater will (unless you have it on for a VERY long time indeed) not provide sufficient heat transfer through the engine to the tranny to thaw the fluid - and I supect, it will provide only minimal heat through the block, pan and into the engine oil. All the discussion I have seen re the special spec requirement for TDi engine oil SCREAMS to me that lubrication is CRITICAL on these engines. Because of the extreme mechanical, and thermal stresses at start up I find it difficult to see how the super-duper new spec oil CAN protect the engine and how the super - cooled tranny fluid will transmit power and not cause slippage / burning.
The most effective (not pretty) engine heaters I have ever used have been pan heaters (even used a couple low wattage ones on transmissions). The effect is to (even using synthetic oil) have instant oil pressure and therefore instant lubrication at the most critical time for engine wear. I found that at any temperature above (warmer than) about - 45C one hour's heat with a pan heater would give me acceptable viscosity at startup at make starting far less painful. Beyond -45C give'er 2 hours,
As an aside, I have put over 200K km of long distance cold - middle of the winter travel on my diesels without the use of antigel or lubricating additives, and my vehicles have perforned flawlessly. Our fuel was P40 or P50 Diesel. (Pour point -40 or -50C same as the home heating fuel. A typical drive would be a -35C, one way, 15-16 hour, 1600 km non-stop (except potty and fuel) breaks) mad dash to civilization. The closest shop that can even spell VW was 1600 km away so reliability was a REAL big issue.
Bottom line IMHO, if you live where it is COLD, use an engine heater - one that will give you instant oil pressure at start up (pan heater??). If you live where it is REAL COLD find a way to give your Tippy tranny fluid a temperature boost (garage,). For standard trannies - drive 'em - as soon as you can get'em in gear - AFTER you have sufficient engine oil pressure.
VicTDI
Veteran Member
Subject: No Block Heater?
Checked yesterday with cold start at morning commute followed by cold start at evening commute. Was surprised to see that yes indeed, there is heat within half a block. Really shocked me actually. I had just never turned on heat and blower until my temp gauge was starting to move. I was getting good heat after 30 seconds. The temp gauge doesn't even start to move for the first 3 or 4 minutes. So this was a pleasant shocker. However, I don't think you're right about the heat setting turning on or off these coolant heaters. I think they just come on whenever the coolant is below a certain temp. The evening commute, I left the heat control to cold, started up, drove for a couple of minutes (no heat on gauge yet) then turned on heat control and blower and there was good heat immediately. I don't think there is any connection between heat setting and the coolant heaters.
Checked yesterday with cold start at morning commute followed by cold start at evening commute. Was surprised to see that yes indeed, there is heat within half a block. Really shocked me actually. I had just never turned on heat and blower until my temp gauge was starting to move. I was getting good heat after 30 seconds. The temp gauge doesn't even start to move for the first 3 or 4 minutes. So this was a pleasant shocker. However, I don't think you're right about the heat setting turning on or off these coolant heaters. I think they just come on whenever the coolant is below a certain temp. The evening commute, I left the heat control to cold, started up, drove for a couple of minutes (no heat on gauge yet) then turned on heat control and blower and there was good heat immediately. I don't think there is any connection between heat setting and the coolant heaters.
red golf tdi
Vendor , w/Business number
Subject: No Block Heater?
It says alot about how confident they are in their diesels starting.
Some people wouldn't consider a diesel if there's a plug end hanging out the front of it.
It's Now Avaialble for PD automatics!!!
It's a marketing statement..."Our diesels don't need a block heater to start."
It says alot about how confident they are in their diesels starting.
Some people wouldn't consider a diesel if there's a plug end hanging out the front of it.
xsbank
Veteran Member
Subject: No Block Heater?
I haven't had a chance to experiment with the position of the 'A' knob and conduct some type of survey, but the rest of the gen about the control position came from a tech. I do think that the purpose of the special oil that VW spec'd must be for the sole purpose of providing proper lubrication at engine operating temperatures that are much colder than we are used to seeing (this is my opinion only). I cannot see why VW would bother with such an esoteric oil (unless it is just the usual stuff in a specially-marked can with which they make a killing at $11.00 a litre - only I am capable of that level of cynicism) and unless they have recognized that 'normal' oil just doesn't work adequately at cold temps. If this oil wasn't particularly slippery, why else would it take a year or two to 'break in' this engine? The hardest part for me is adapting my expectations of how an engine should be operated, and not be concerned that there is any harm being done to the engine at low temps. A manual transmission/differential may be something else completely though, hence my willingness to wait and see, and my reliance on the 5 year warranty!
I haven't had a chance to experiment with the position of the 'A' knob and conduct some type of survey, but the rest of the gen about the control position came from a tech. I do think that the purpose of the special oil that VW spec'd must be for the sole purpose of providing proper lubrication at engine operating temperatures that are much colder than we are used to seeing (this is my opinion only). I cannot see why VW would bother with such an esoteric oil (unless it is just the usual stuff in a specially-marked can with which they make a killing at $11.00 a litre - only I am capable of that level of cynicism) and unless they have recognized that 'normal' oil just doesn't work adequately at cold temps. If this oil wasn't particularly slippery, why else would it take a year or two to 'break in' this engine? The hardest part for me is adapting my expectations of how an engine should be operated, and not be concerned that there is any harm being done to the engine at low temps. A manual transmission/differential may be something else completely though, hence my willingness to wait and see, and my reliance on the 5 year warranty!
04REFLEXTDI
New member
I am in Edmonton too, Which dealer installed your zerostart? I received my tdiheater a few months ago and haven't had the time to install it myself. If they are going to charge $400 or something to install it, I'll make time and do it myself.
Pali
Active member
Has anyone in the Toronto area had any issues with cold weather starts? I am planning to keep my car inside the garage during the winter months. Does firing up the glow plugs more than once have any negative effects? Are both the coolant heater and the oil pam heater now available from the dealership? My sales-guy seemed to have no clue and simply told me that I wouldn't need to worry about starting the TDI. Since I just bought the car, I have never winter driven it - but I have always had block heaters in my other gasoline powered cars.
Thanks in advance,
Thanks in advance,
red golf tdi
Vendor , w/Business number
red golf tdi
Vendor , w/Business number
jettanorth
Active member
If I have said it once I have said it a million times. THE PD TDI WILL START IN ANY TEMP AT LEAST TO -45C (personal knowledge) without the aid of a TDI Heater, pan heater, or any other invention of man. Last winter being my first with our car, I didn't have any of these comforts installed and no problems dealing with the sub arctic climate of the Yukon Territory. These cars are designed to start. They knock and bang, but they start. If they NEEDED a block heater or equivalent VW would have designed the engine to accept one.
I currently have a TDI Heater, but it is for comfort only.
I currently have a TDI Heater, but it is for comfort only.
Pelican18TQA4
Veteran Member
:-( No TDI Heater for '05 New Beetle TDI with DSG transmission.
VicTDI
Veteran Member
Why is it that so many owners are so short sighted here as to think that the main issue is whether or not it will start? Of course it will start - the issue should be how much wear is caused by those ice cold starts. When the oil is that thick lubrication is virtually nil for the first few seconds and preciously slow for quite a while thereafter. Put a heater in it and do your engine a favour.
Thunderstruck
Veteran Member
I'm still hoping to see one for our NB's. Terry needs to either get a test mule, or see if he can check out clearance on one at the car dealers. I'm hoping for something to happen on the NB/DSG front soon.
canucklehead
Member
If the heater becomes available through Hunt Club VW, please let me know. I just bought an 04 (Bytek). I asked if this was an option and was told "no".
Pali
Active member
I don't know if you answered this question in another forum, if you have I haven't been able to locate the answer....by putting in a TDIheater does my warranty become an issue? Is it dependant on one dealer to the next?
Thanks.
Thanks.
DickSilver
Veteran Member
The TDI Heater does not negatively effect the engine in any way: I cannot imagine it creating a warranty problem. Unless it is installed by a doofus who does not do up the hose connections correctly, and the system loses coolant and the engine damage on account of that.
red golf tdi
Vendor , w/Business number
As far as warranty, the service managers at Volkswagen dealers I've talked to in regards to warranty all say that it wouldn't be a problem and a heater would not effect the VW warranty. As a matter of fact, I have a number of Volkswagen dealers who buy TDIHeaters in large quantities from me. Some of the Canadian VW dealers are replacing the oil pan heater under warranty with my TDIHeater at no cost to the customer! Many tdiclub.com members have also talked to their service managers and they've said it would not be a problem either. It would be like installing any other aftermarket parts and accessories to your vehicle to either personalize or to make it more functional. The TDIHeater doesn't change the coolant direction or decrease coolant capacity, and the installation doesn't compromise or modify any other components under the hood, besides removing one factory hose and installing the TDIHeater assembly in it's place. The TDIHeater itself comes with a 1 year replacement warranty for workmanship defects.
Erik Lupo 3L
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2002
- Location
- Denmark
Re: No Block Heater? *DELETED*
Post deleted by Erik Lupo 3L
Post deleted by Erik Lupo 3L
What gets me is the price of the 04 Block heaters. They take $99 off the PDI explaining that a block heater is not yet available (and still isnt till DEC 15) but that is the expected price, then go ahead and up the price to $389.00!?!?! ***. $389, for a block heater? If I was driving every day, I wouldnt get one, but I leave my car at the airport for up to 5 weeks at a time.
Erik Lupo 3L
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2002
- Location
- Denmark
Re: No Block Heater? *DELETED*
Post deleted by Erik Lupo 3L
Post deleted by Erik Lupo 3L
wgmoller
Veteran Member
I ran my TDIheater heater much of last Winter (Chicago). I have a NB 5 speed. I run it anytime the car is parked outside to prevent the engine from ever cooling down...trying to keep its temp operating range as narrow as possible during extreme cold periods.
TDI_04_Driver
Veteran Member
I have heated seats but some peoples feet get pretty cold till the engine warms up. Are there any portable heater that will run off the cigarette lighter socket to keep the passengers feet warm?
Pelican18TQA4
Veteran Member
Me too! Hopefully by Spring, when my NB TDI DSG will arrive, there will be a TDIHeater available.
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