NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

kjclow

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Every Japanese car I've tried is too small for me. Either my lelegs font have enough room, head hits the ceiling, steering wheel doesn't telescope oror a combo of the above.
Describes why my teen aged daughters ended up driving the then new 05 Corolla. I have never been able to find that comfort spot behind the wheel. Now I'd rather ride in the back seat behind my vertically challenged daughter.
 

South Coast Guy

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Correct but so what? VW chose to use it, its VW's responsibility to go after Bosch or provide warranty for that crappy part.



Agred. I ain't no engrish mjor. :D

And with texting the norm now, people write and talk like that too, :(
I can only assume that Bosch has stepped up and is paying the freight on the failures. And it also appears they have redesigned the pump (maybe several times). VW, like every other car manufacturer in the world, relies on its vendors to produce parts meeting their standards. I don't think management at VW is happy about the failure rate, and they have extended the warranty to 10 years/120K miles.
 

turbovan+tdi

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I can only assume that Bosch has stepped up and is paying the freight on the failures. And it also appears they have redesigned the pump (maybe several times). VW, like every other car manufacturer in the world, relies on its vendors to produce parts meeting their standards. I don't think management at VW is happy about the failure rate, and they have extended the warranty to 10 years/120K miles.
From what I've read, the pump is virtually the same, but I could be wrong.

VW has to go after Bosch, but how do we know that VW didn't ask Bosch for this type of pump? Engineers are basically told what VW wants, just this example, so they have to make something that VW wants. Now it could be VW's fault, Bosch or whomever but that's irrelevant, VW sells the car, its VW's responsibility, period, end of discussion.
 

ezshift5

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...two respected forum folks with 180 degree disparity (about HPFP progressive re-design)...

Like many here, I really dig the car (fuel efficiency, space efficiency, torque efficiency - - - the list goes on from there).

HOWEVER - and I don't know the failure rate (does anyone?) - I view the possible "grenade effect" with a fair amount of apprehension........warranty(ies) notwithstanding..............

Sure like to know more................

ez
 

mr_y82

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some good points, but a bit harsh considering the slight oversight... I agree with all your generalizations.

Just a bit judgmental aren't we? How often do either of you go back and proofread your posts to make sure there are no errors?

At least mr_y82 was able to understand my intent.
I actually do proof mine, but I am a little OCD, lol... if you look at most my posts you will see they have been edited... not that they are free of errors, or improper capitalization... ;)
 
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mr_y82

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It's called Stockholm Syndrome. Not me, I've gone over to Toyota. Zero problems so far. Too many problems with my TDI (but not HPFP).
haha, yup, turbovan+tdi made a good point.. As did ATR... vw=nice.:eek:

HOWEVER - and I don't know the failure rate (does anyone?)
ez
very, very high... (I think you meant to write "I don't WANT to know...")
 

Lightflyer1

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very, very high... (I think you meant to write "I don't WANT to know...")
From my reading here and what was gleaned from those reporting here and the info from the NHTSA reports and info included of VW's answers to their questions, the failure rate was very, very low. That doesn't make it better for those who have had an issue though. Last I read it was estimated around 2% fails with the info at hand. If it was very, very high there would be dead VW diesels all over the road.
 
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turbovan+tdi

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You may wish to consider Porsche IMS bearing failures, and BMW rear subframe mount structural failures (and gas engine HPFP failures), and how they've been treating *their* customers.
Guess I'll have to do some more reading, ;)
 

turbovan+tdi

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It's somewhere between 2-5% percentage seems to go up with time and mileage. That's still pretty low.

Tell that to the suckers, errr customers who have to pay $7000. Its ok if warranty covers it but if not, :(
 

ATR

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Tell that to the suckers, errr customers who have to pay $7000. Its ok if warranty covers it but if not, :(
Ohhhh, I know those nasty stories... Folks in Canada are still forced to pay for the repairs. getting VWOCa to pull through for them is much worse then the US deals with.

While I'm happy to be in the US, I still feel that VW didn't quite go as far as they could/should have.

They may still help with part of the fuel system repairs.

My fair assessment?
Get the 2micron kit to mitigate the damage to the pump alone. Perfect for the Canadians with no warranty on the fuel system.

Or more long term and less worry?
Get a CP3 pump on there and worry no more.
In the long run I think this is the route I'm going to take.
 

Smokin_Joe

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It's somewhere between 2-5% percentage seems to go up with time and mileage. That's still pretty low.
You are right about the failure rate and I don't think that is the issue.
It is the fact that when they fail it is catastrophic.
(everything fails eventually and I am talking about the fuel system)
It isn't based solely on mileage either.
VW should at the very least offer a "fix" to reduce the extent of the damage that occurs.
Something along the lines of what 2micron is offering.
Our car is performing excellently at the moment and I hope that we aren't secretly having another failure.
6 months from when our extended warranty runs out we plan on installing 2microns containment system (mid 2017)
Until then we can only hope we have no more occurrences.
 

Perry01

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Or more long term and less worry?
Get a CP3 pump on there and worry no more.
In the long run I think this is the route I'm going to take.
When my timing belt is due for a change, I'm installing a CP3.
.
 

ATR

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You are right about the failure rate and I don't think that is the issue.
It is the fact that when they fail it is catastrophic.
(everything fails eventually and I am talking about the fuel system)
It isn't based solely on mileage either.
VW should at the very least offer a "fix" to reduce the extent of the damage that occurs.
Something along the lines of what 2micron is offering.
Our car is performing excellently at the moment and I hope that we aren't secretly having another failure.
6 months from when our extended warranty runs out we plan on installing 2microns containment system (mid 2017)
Until then we can only hope we have no more occurrences.
I don't dispute the catastrophic nature of the failure one bit.
And I whole heartily agree that a fix from VW similar to 2micron's kit would be very good. But it still doesn't fix the root cause of the problem. However, from the reports of folks that have had a failure with 2micron's kit installed it seems to be a much more graceful failure and not as sudden.

When my timing belt is due for a change, I'm installing a CP3.
Same here :cool:
 

PlaneCrazy

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Gone...
I don't dispute the catastrophic nature of the failure one bit.
And I whole heartily agree that a fix from VW similar to 2micron's kit would be very good. But it still doesn't fix the root cause of the problem. However, from the reports of folks that have had a failure with 2micron's kit installed it seems to be a much more graceful failure and not as sudden.
Same here :cool:
A root cause fix would be to replace the pump with a CP3. The problem is that the car's emissions system has been certified with the CP4.1, so I don't think it's going to happen. And I don't think VW would invest in a partial solution either, to mitigate damage. That would be very costly, and at the end of the day, they'd still be on the hook for about $1500 per car for a pump failure. Multiply the cost of the 2micron-type solution by the number of TDIs on the road, plus add into that the maybe 2% now increasing to 5% failure rate with time, and the cost would be prohibitively high.

The only realistic solution you could expect from VW would be for Bosch to re-engineer the CP4.1 with better materials and internals, and for Bosch to participate in the cost of the recall.

But I don't think that solution is forthcoming. It is way cheaper for VW to simply extend the warranty to 120k miles (10 years of average driving, but more like 5 for most TDI owners), and pay for the replacement on a case-by-case basis.

I mean we're not talking about replacing a $0.50 switch or something, but a component costing around $700-1000 and requiring significant labour to install. I wouldn't hold my breath on anything more than an extended warranty from VW. Still, that's more than they offered folks whose balance shaft chains and tensioners grenaded on Passat TDIs with the BHW engine, often taking the engine with it. Most folks got zip, a few lucky ones like myself were able to get a proactive replacement with significant participation by VW.
 

highender

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The risk management team of VW must have concluded that since there were no fatalities, and the cost of total re engineering and replacement of fuel pumps is too high, it is cheaper, quicker to fight back and replace HPFP only when absolutely sure it is not caused by customer.


OUr case to have HPFP covered many years ago, was hampered by some idiots who misfueled their TDIs, or by those who used home brewed fuel, or contaminated fuel.

Now that it is supposedly covered, we still have to be vigilant about fuel usage, cause VW would love to have evidence of misfueling, to avoid paying or warranting an HPFP failures.

Advise all your friends and family to be informed about this.
 

turbovan+tdi

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And I don't think VW would invest in a partial solution either, to mitigate damage. That would be very costly, and at the end of the day, they'd still be on the hook for about $1500 per car for a pump failure. .
They would never do that as if they do, it means the component is junk and now they are on the hook for anyone that has paid for a fuel pump replacement.

The risk management team of VW must have concluded that since there were no fatalities, and the cost of total re engineering and replacement of fuel pumps is too high, it is cheaper, quicker to fight back and replace HPFP only when absolutely sure it is not caused by customer.
OUr case to have HPFP covered many years ago, was hampered by some idiots who misfueled their TDIs, or by those who used home brewed fuel, or contaminated fuel.
Now that it is supposedly covered, we still have to be vigilant about fuel usage, cause VW would love to have evidence of misfueling, to avoid paying or warranting an HPFP failures.
Advise all your friends and family to be informed about this.
See above and the amount of misfuels was negliable. Sad really, they'd be better off buying a 2 micron kit and giving them to customers with the CR engine, it would be miles cheaper in the long run.
 

clyde

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However, from the reports of folks that have had a failure with 2micron's kit installed it seems to be a much more graceful failure and not as sudden.
That's very good. I hope the politicians will be graceful about paying you royalties on that remark…
 

ATR

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That's very good. I hope the politicians will be graceful about paying you royalties on that remark…
I'm not sure what to make of that... seems a tad off the beaten path of the thread :p

Regardless of that, it was put in a similar way when a member here on the forums installed 2micron's kit and a month or so after had his pump blow up on him. Took a good 100 or so miles before the thing really wouldn't run much more and finally died on him. He cleaned the tiny filter on the HPFP of metal flakes and drove it a bit longer... 50-100 more miles iirc before it died on him again and he realized the pump had indeed went. Typical failure of the piston rotating and cam wearing a nice grove in the roller.

2micron's filter did it's job in keeping the failure to the pump alone. None of the other parts of the fuel system were at all damaged. HPFP and return filter on the 2micron kit were the only things that needed replaced. While inconvenient, it was much less than replacing the entire fuel system.
 

mr_y82

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^indeed! I also got the impression the 2micron kit could "slow down" a failure... I've mentioned that on a thread or two, maybe this one!

From my reading here and what was gleaned from those reporting here and the info from the NHTSA reports and info included of VW's answers to their questions, the failure rate was very, very low. That doesn't make it better for those who have had an issue though. Last I read it was estimated around 2% fails with the info at hand. If it was very, very high there would be dead VW diesels all over the road.
It's somewhere between 2-5% percentage seems to go up with time and mileage. That's still pretty low.

Yup, I have read the report; most of it more than once... I was A) making a joke (albeit not all that funny) and B) these things are relative... if 1% of planes crash and most the passengers die that % is too high for me to continue flying... or, if a restaurant has a much "higher" sanitation grade, say 70%... I am still not going to eat there, lol... 2% over the course of 3 years of service = a little high for the comfort of people driving TDIs (at least those of us that don't feel extremely lucky)... All things are relative...

Sorry my humor missed the mark!:D
 

Smokin_Joe

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Excellent

....

Regardless of that, it was put in a similar way when a member here on the forums installed 2micron's kit and a month or so after had his pump blow up on him. Took a good 100 or so miles before the thing really wouldn't run much more and finally died on him. He cleaned the tiny filter on the HPFP of metal flakes and drove it a bit longer... 50-100 more miles iirc before it died on him again and he realized the pump had indeed went. Typical failure of the piston rotating and cam wearing a nice grove in the roller.

2micron's filter did it's job in keeping the failure to the pump alone. None of the other parts of the fuel system were at all damaged. HPFP and return filter on the 2micron kit were the only things that needed replaced. While inconvenient, it was much less than replacing the entire fuel system.
I hadn't seen that, Thanks ATR.
Only reasons we haven't sold ours is the hope that 2micron has created a liveable solution(s) and not wanting to take a loss on driving something else.
 
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ATR

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I hadn't seen that, Thanks ATR.
Only reasons we haven't sold ours is the hope that 2micron has created a liveable solution(s) and not wanting to take a loss on driving something else.
You guys up north defiantly got a raw deal from vwoca. I really hope that they see the light and offer a warranty extension.

But if they don't 2Micron has a great product for those outside of warranty and Canadians.
 
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nate0031

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+1 for the 2micron kit. Put one on and drive with confidence. The install isn't very difficult at all, just requires attention to detail and being meticulous that no contaminants enter the pump.
 

DriverJon

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Hmmm... looks like this thread's a bit quiet lately, almost like something else has everybody's attention...

Went to my dealer to talk abt The NOX Issue... and in the process, talked about current status of HPFP issues. Was a bit interesting, he had a few facts and impressions that I thought were worth sharing.

1. He seemed to think there's more HPFP failures in SoCA, or maybe the SW USA. Said it seems they have one in the shop almost every week. He said, when talking about it with service people from other parts of the USA, at training classes, etc, they seem surprised by how often he sees them.

2. He thought he noticed an uptick in failures when the weather was hot, maybe when the seasons turn, etc.

3. He mentioned that VW covering failures has changed, now that there's an extended warranty. Formerly, they had been covering them fully, if it wasn't a misfuel. Now, with the 10y 120k mile, THEY WON'T COVER IF YOU'RE A BIT OVER THE LINE. He was a bit sad that earlier they had done a full cover on a car with 168k, but a while back they turned down a guy with a few miles past 120k.

My thoughts... 1. Warn weather has an effect? Area fuel quality? Hrm... Could be mostly due to being a dealer in one of the largest/densest metro areas in the US. And in an area of high TDI popularity.

2. Interesting, but it's one service managers impression as a data point. Would be something if we had 5-10 saying that, or some larger statistics. I think I'll re order another bottle of OptiLube, this one's almost gone...

3. Sad, but predictable corporate level response. Something I didnt know. Would seem to steer one into waiting until 120k, THEN ordering the 2 Micron kits... with priority shipping!

Anyway, FWIW, not starting a controversy, thought they were interesting points, I won't tell which of the 3 VW dealers in a 15 mile radius of me it was... gotta keep my sources happy. And, any post NOT about Dieselgate, is a good thing...
 
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bluey

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Do you have any figures on diesel lubricity variations by region???

I thought 2% biodiesel was the best lubricity improver.
 

Smokin_Joe

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Interesting
VW can't bother to fix an obvious fault in their design to compensate for slight variations in fuel and the catastrophic failure it creates....
They also think they don't have to legally deal with regulations concerning the epa......hmmmm
So what is it?
Arrogance or Ignorance .....

You get to decide:D
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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My $.02...it's as if they made a game out of seeing just how far they could go with half-a$$ing these cars (MK VI Jetta). The news that's come out in the past couple of weeks supports that thought.
 

rewwky

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HPFP Failures occurring in 2013-2014 TDIs as well

Team TDIers,
My 2013 Golf TDI with almost 80K on it suffered a catastrophic HPFP failure back in early August. My failure is noted on http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=299854 (post 847)

Unlike the 2010-2012 TDI models, the HPFP factory warranty was not extended on the 2013s and 2014s.

It has been nothing short of a frustrating battle with VWOA on getting them to cover this repair. The dealer has also not provided a written diagnosis other than the car throwing a code signifying an HPFP failure and inspected the fuel filter and found metal shavings. An Aug 25th letter from VWOA stated that they would not cover anything. I was letting this "ride" for a bit and when the emissions scandal came out, I thought "now that is karma". I came across VWOA's CEO/President Michael Horn's email address and sent him a letter last week explaining all the facts and circumstances. Within 24 hours I had an Exec Specialist (one level above the regional case managers) calling me and the latest deal is that they will cover 25% parts and nothing on labor. VWOA further offered to give me wholesale cost for parts (~$4100) and labor (~$900). So knocking off 25% off parts, total out the door bill will be around $3950. The latest though is that I went to price the parts on volkswagenpartsdepartment.com and I can get all the needed OEM parts for ~$2700, so my plan is to engage VWOA with the difference in parts pricing.



I really don't think that I should accept this deal, but to be honest, I have a lot of things to factor in to include a possible course of action of pursuing legal action, but this would be a David vs Goliath battle. I'm an amateur mechanic at best so I'm really in a bad spot and so frustrated being caught between the VW dealer and VWOA.

If I cannot get VWOA to budge on their latest deal, I believe the better option would be to find a trusted TDI mechanic who has done a complete HPFP repair, I see that Dan Falzone attempted to do this himself (separate thread), but is experiencing issues getting his TDI to run correctly. I sure do wish him the best as his DIY guide is phenomenal.

I did submit my HPFP failure to the NTHSB, but to date have been unable to find out how may 2013-2014 TDIs have experienced the dreaded HPFP failure though I know I'm not the only one. I'd love to hear from someone who has a 2013-2014 TDI that suffered a HPFP failure outside of the standard mfr warranty period and got VWOA to cover the cost of the entire repair (or something better than their latest offer to me)

Part of this post is venting on the crappy customer experience with VWOA/VW dealer and part of this is seeking what you TDI veterans think about this.

Thanks much in advance!

Rob
 
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