NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

eddif

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As nick said, we don't know for sure if the latest HPFP has solved the problems. Not enough time on them to know absolutely. If you figure a replacement charge of $1000 (est) per HPFP and VW has seen less than 1% failures to date, then you can see the economics of only working on the failures at $8000. Even at $100 per HPFP, VW is still ahead only fixing the failures. Based on that, I would not be surprised to see a "lifetime" warranty for the fuel system come out of this investigation.

Hopefully, Since VW is already involved with the NHTSA investigation, they will report all failures not just those of the effected tdiclub members.
"IF" VW is really taking ownership and have started paying for any/all HPFP's that fail (not for the gasoline filled), then would it not be cheaper for VW to have current owners with XXX1234 HPFP's come to the dealership for a newer version HPFP? A new HPFP is certainly cheaper than replacing the entire fuel system! :confused:

I'm sure we would rather have a new HPFP installed than have to go through the hassle of a possible wreck, getting stranded, towing charges, loaner vehicle, new fuel system, pain and suffering, hotel bill (while being stranded in some strange city), etc. etc. See where I'm going with this?

And to add to Dweisel's point, those failures (i believe) are only Member failures. Think about all those poor soles who purchased a TDI that crapped out on them! I'm sure there are a lot more failures out there... a lot more.
A new pump plus Lifetime warranty is what you would want. Or a whole system plus a lifetime warranty in case of a failure.

If they were to replace your HPFP and the old pump were going bad (but not failed yet) your whole system could already be full of trash (who would decide if you needed a whole system replacement or just a pump at that point). The extended warranty would help make sure the car survived with just the new pump replacement.

To make sure no corners were cut in all this, a new system or pump plus the lifetime warranty is what you should have.

I am sure wording should be improved.

eddif
 

Niner

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I heard the other day (not sure if it is fact or not, yet), that the Fed Govt is requiring a 15 year/150,000 mile federal emissions warranty on all 2012 + diesel vehicles here in the states. The mechanic said that the HPFP is considered part of the emissions system, as without the high pressure fuel pump, the whole system fails the emissions standards set by the Fed. Make of it what you will, but it will not be retroactive for 2009-2011 models.
Still, safe to say we will be watching for 2012 HPFP failures too, to see if the problem has been re engineered by Bosch into something with some real longevity like their older 1996- 2003 USA version Injector pumps.
 

740GLE

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Sounds like a nice rumor for the customers, not so much for VW, no wonder they are the only ones supid enough to play with diesels here.

anything in print to back up that kind of warranty? BTW VW hems and haws to even honnor the 70-80K warranty the feds put on emissions stuff a while ago stating "yeah that part isn't covered".
 

DieselOx

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Sounds like a nice rumor for the customers, not so much for VW, no wonder they are the only ones supid enough to play with diesels here.

anything in print to back up that kind of warranty? BTW VW hems and haws to even honnor the 70-80K warranty the feds put on emissions stuff a while ago stating "yeah that part isn't covered".
I thought emissions were federally mandated to be 10 years/120k miles, regardless of what mfg states. [edit: just remembered, that was a negotiated warranty extension to settle a class action lawsuit. Carry on.]

I had my 97 Honda Odyssey repaired under that warranty in about 2005; Honda sent me a letter, dealer gave me a free tune up. (114 k miles +/-)

federal emissions warranty law (probably outdated):

http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/warr95fs.txt
 
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DasTeknoViking

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Honda did a 15 year extension and 150k miles to any component that would cause the MIL to come on.

Fed emissions warranty is 8/80 and there are lot of interpretations as far as what is covered by it.
 

kjclow

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However, the fuel pump is not part of the emmision controls. Sure, if it's not working properly, then it might effect your emmision controls. On the otherhand, once the HPFP explodes, you don't have to worry about the complience of your emmision controls since the car is no longer running.
 

mxs

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So it's been a long while since I checked into this HPFP failure threads.

I see that not much has changed ..... most people here think that VW and Bosch are not telling the truth or don't want to admit their guilt and rather blame the fuel contamination for the failures. If my car was affected, I'd probably think the same, to be completely fair ... nature of the human being.

To me it is still blatantly obvious that they are differences in fuel diesel quality between US and Canada (based on publicly available figures, I believe). I realize that a lot more TDIs are sold in US, so the number of failures will always be higher, but what strikes me is the fact that I have not heard of one single failure in Canada (assuming the car was purchased in Canada and fed diesel made for Canadian market). Am I wrong or is it obvious that US diesel was just not good enough (I believe more strict norms are in place now or as of end of 2010) for the finicky HPFP (see some other references to Europe where they were failing as well until cleaner diesel was put into the market years ago ...).
 

dsieme01

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North American Diesel is all pretty low quality. The cetain is low across the board. A cat or cummins will run on 40' cetain, jettas are suppose to have closer to 50.
The fuel is also dirty.

Any corralation on hpfp failues between the two different style filters used?
EG the two hole or the single hole ones?
 

JSWTDI09

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North American Diesel is all pretty low quality. The cetain is low across the board. A cat or cummins will run on 40' cetain, jettas are suppose to have closer to 50.
The fuel is also dirty.

Any corralation on hpfp failues between the two different style filters used?
EG the two hole or the single hole ones?
To say "North American" diesel is a bit of a dis-service to our Canadian members. Canada has the same (higher) specification for fuel lubricity as is in Europe, while US standards are far lower (worse). Many people believe that this is why there are far fewer HPFP failures in Canada. As for Cetane - this varies widely from brand to brand and runs from 40 to about 52.

I have heard nothing about any difference between the two types of fuel filters. I suspect that both are equally good (at least I hope so).

Have Fun!

Don
 

NickBeek

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It doesn't matter if the fuel in the US is pure horse urine. If they are going to sell a vehicle here, for use here, then it should be able to run on the fuel here! This is a design flaw and nothing less.
 

oxford_guy

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it is still blatantly obvious that they are differences in fuel diesel quality between US and Canada (based on publicly available figures, I believe). I realize that a lot more TDIs are sold in US, so the number of failures will always be higher, but what strikes me is the fact that I have not heard of one single failure in Canada (assuming the car was purchased in Canada and fed diesel made for Canadian market). Am I wrong or is it obvious that US diesel was just not good enough (I believe more strict norms are in place now or as of end of 2010) for the finicky HPFP (see some other references to Europe where they were failing as well until cleaner diesel was put into the market years ago ...).
Most states don't even bother to check fuel quality, like Ohio.
 

El Dobro

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I actually saw a sign that said this. Hmmmm, wonder if it gives a massage too?
Around here, Raceway and Quick Chek put up premium diesel signs. When I e-mailed them asking what made their diesel fuel "premium", the signs came down.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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Derrel, we need you and others in other states to send an email to the Department of Weights and Measures in your state (which likely will have a Transportation Fuels and Air Quality Division) asking about the quality of diesel fuel being sold at the retail level.:D

This is what I sent:

I am concerned about the quality of diesel fuel being sold at retail pumps in Arizona (and in the US since I do travel to other states) as to whether the fuel meets the ASTM D975 specification. If this should be addressed by someone else, could you please forward my email to the appropriate person.

Please provide me the state’s quality assurance program for ULSD that ensures such compliance at the retail level and a summary of the state’s actual compliance testing data of ULSD diesel fuel for the past 12 months (or other period as appropriate). I am interested in what tests are conducted (water, lubricity, cetane and so forth), the frequency of such testing, statistics on violations, and the remedies / penalties for such violations.


As background, the NHTSA has an engineering analysis, ongoing investigation of failures of high pressure fuel pumps on Volkswagen TDIs (MY 2009+). VW has and apparently continues to “blame” the failures on poor quality diesel fuel (as opposed to perhaps “poor design” of the pump). My pump failed on June 1, 2011 and fortunately was covered under warranty. But failed pumps that were not covered under warranty have cost owners between about $6,000 - $10,000 to repair depending on what parts need to be replaced. The failures seem to be an issue with the lubricity of the diesel fuel.

Bosch and other fuel injection equipment manufacturers have indicated that poor lubricity can cause immediate failures of high pressure fuel pumps and that lubricity with a wear scar of greater than 460 microns (spec is 520 microns) will reduce the life of the equipment. Lubricity agents are supposed to be added at the distribution terminal prior to trucking to the retail stations to bring the lubricity of the diesel fuel into compliance. My concern is that without adequate compliance testing how can the consumer be assured that lubricity enhancing agents have been added to the fuel? That gasoline hasn’t been added inadvertently to the diesel fuel storage tank? That abnormal amounts of water aren’t in the diesel storage tanks? All of which can cause catastrophic damage to the TDIs fuel system.

As my warranty expires in another 10k miles, I need assurance that Arizona is checking diesel fuel quality and enforces non-compliance.
Suffice it to say that AZ does not test diesel fuel for lubricity (at the retail level or at the distribution terminal). Also, AZ recently spent one year checking fuel compliance in southern AZ and found general compliance but some non-compliant fuel which was taken off the market (this does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling).

With respect to lubricity, AZ only examines a) the records of additives that were supposedly added at the distribution terminal to diesel fuel and 2) any quality tests that the operators of the distribution facility may have performed. Again, this does not give me comfort that the fuel sold in AZ at the retail level meets the 520 micron wear scar standard for lubricity.

Also, AZ will provide their compliance data for a nominal charge if one wants it electonically (the cost of paper is considerable more).
 

oxford_guy

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:)

And how pray tell do you figure that? :confused: :confused: :confused:

:D

D
There is a website that lists which states test for fuel quality, which tests are run, and how often they are run. It appeared in a topic here awhile ago. Unfortunately, most states do not test for fuel quality.
 
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kjclow

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All states test pump performance and octane or cetane of the fuel at the pump. It's all part of the Weights and Measures laws. I think thos tests are required on a annual basis in each state.

As far as the additives and advertising claims by some companies, I would be suprised if any states put much effort into testing each individual product.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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All states test pump performance and octane or cetane of the fuel at the pump. It's all part of the Weights and Measures laws. I think thos tests are required on a annual basis in each state.

As far as the additives and advertising claims by some companies, I would be suprised if any states put much effort into testing each individual product.
There in lies the problem.

Piplelines do not require fuel to meet lubricity standards to be transported (cetane of the fuel must be certified to meet the ASTM standards before it enters the pipeline). The lubricity of the "raw" pipeline fuel is likely in the 650+ micron wear scar range. Thus, it appears we must "trust" the distribution terminal to add the proper amount of lubricity enhancing agent to get the wear scar of "raw" fuel down to 520 microns or better before the fuel is loaded on the truck.

Again what good is a standard if there is not independent testing of the fuel to check compliance with such a critical standard as lubricity at the retail level. Another reason for us CR TDI owners (besides the FIEM position statement on lubricity) to enhance the lubricity of the fuel we buy.
 

Softrockrenegade

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Did I make a mistake ? :(

These threads are starting to make me paranoid :( I was soo happy with my 2011 golf tdi and joined this forum but now feel as of it's going to die right after the warranty expires !!!! I bought a tdi as a car that could take a long commute and last many years and miles .....
 
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oxford_guy

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All states test pump performance and octane or cetane of the fuel at the pump. It's all part of the Weights and Measures laws. I think thos tests are required on a annual basis in each state.
State lawmaker calls for mandatory fuel quality testing in Ohio said:
It only took eight octane tests to discover a gas station that was selling gasoline below the octane level posted on the pumps. In this case, consumers were paying up to 20 cents more for high grade gasoline, when in fact they weren't getting all they were paying for.

"Certainly sub-par fuel could be coming across the border into this state, because there is no legislation that requires them to be checked," said Summit Weights and Measures Deputy Director John Poda. Summit County voluntarily launched its own fuel quality testing several years ago, utilizing a mobile testing lab through its Department of Weights and Measures.

Poda reports problems with fuel quality have dropped significantly in Summit County after mandatory testing was put in place.

State Sen. Frank LaRose (R) responded and contacted the Ohio Department of Agriculture about creating legislation that would require fuel quality test in all 88 Ohio counties.
link
There are three other states that don't do any fuel quality testing, according to that article. Plus, the main focus is on octane -- lubricity, contamination with water/dirt/organisms, and cetane aren't mentioned.

Unfortunately, fuel quality isn't something that is easily policed. Many states have programs in place to monitor fuel quality on either an ongoing basis or "incident specific" basis. Most are run by the state's Department of Weights and Measures. Even so, the focus of most of these programs is to make sure consumers aren't being cheated at the pump and get the full gallon they pay for. Some programs also check fuels to make sure they do not contain too much alcohol. The specific density of gasoline can be field tested to determine its volatility and alcohol content. But testing octane and the amount and type of additives in the fuel requires expensive laboratory testing. So this type of quality testing is rarely done.

According to one leading gasoline retailer (who sells a Tier One fuel, by the way), many gasoline marketers have reduced the concentration of fuel additives in their fuel up to 50% in recent years! Most gasoline refiners don't want to sell the public bad gas because they obviously want repeat customers. Even so, they also know that deposit formation is a gradual thing that occurs over time. So if they cut back on the additive package to save a few cents per gallon, nobody is the wiser -- and least not right away.
link
2007 said:
Although 27 states have accepted the ASTM D 6751 standard for B100 and 14 have applied ASTM D 975 specifications to blended biodiesel, only 12 states proactively test biodiesel samples for quality before the fuel goes to market.

The one issue that could keep biodiesel from becoming more widely accepted is inconsistent fuel quality. The situation is exacerbated by the lack of federal regulations.
2004 said:
Fuel quality declining, auto industry asserts. Half of gas pumps tested did not meet minimum for detergent content, study finds

As automakers, oil companies, mechanics and motorists continue seeking answers to what may be fouling fuel injectors in Milwaukee, recent reports by the auto industry cite a startling nationwide decline in fuel quality.

One study, to be published next month, shows rampant violations of the EPA's detergent requirement, said Pete Misangyi, a fuels expert with Ford Motor Co. who is familiar with the study.

The Environmental Protection Agency began mandating in 1995 that all gasoline sold in the United States contain a minimum level of detergent to keep fuel injectors and intake valves free of deposits and to keep engines running smoothly.

About half the gasoline sampled from pumps did not contain the minimum level of detergent, Misangyi said.

The findings back a broad 2002 study by Ford that also showed half the gas sampled failed the detergency test, and ongoing nationwide testing by the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers that shows detergency levels dropped 50% from the late 1990s to 2002, Misangyi said.
not sure why the one section is bolded...
 
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MonsterTDI09

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These threads are starting to make me paranoid :( I was soo happy with my 2011 golf tdi and joined this forum but now feel as of it's going to die right after the warranty expires !!!! I bought a tdi as a car that could take a long commute and last many years and miles .....

Just make sure don't put gas in the car and run it.I have two of them and no problems so far.Welcome to the club
 

GTIDan

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These threads are starting to make me paranoid :( I was soo happy with my 2011 golf tdi and joined this forum but now feel as of it's going to die right after the warranty expires !!!! I bought a tdi as a car that could take a long commute and last many years and miles .....
Relax, While there is some good reading within this forum you must wade through a lot of doom and gloom and it's (as you said) getting old really fast.

Can't prove it but my guess is many members of 'the sky is falling' crowd don't even own a NEW (09/10/11) TDI.

Sadly it's not just this forum. The Mercedes and Lexus forums are just as bad. Had I read either of those before purchasing either brand I'm sure I would have passed. Luckily for me my Mercedes, Lexus (still have it) and my TDI all seem to be different from the complainers.............no problems with any of them worth talking about......unless a burned out turn signal bulb blows your mind.

Enjoy your new car I know I am...................... :)
 
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