NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

[eddif]

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=284441
CR Engine HPFP Analysis (oilhammer thread)

 

[dweisel]

This thread is for the News on safety related issues. This failure puts a person in traffic with either limp mode or total loss of power.

I wish you would go to the HPFP investigation thread and discuss the location of the filter with us there. Oilhammer thread.

In my opinion the HPFP has two pressure areas:
1..The main inner area where the cam, roller and slide are located. This area has 65psi (?) of pressure.
2..The High Pressure part of the pump where the 25,000psi is generated.

The wear materials are generated in the 65psi part of the pump. If you add a filter at 65psi you capture the wear materials before the High Pressure part of the pump and also filter the return fuel going to the tank. In other words: if you keep the wear materials out of the High Pressure part of the pump, it will not put trash into the common rail or injectors, and if the wear materials are captured at 65psi the return fuel will be clean.

I agree that it might seem necessary to filter at 25,000 psi, but it is not.

I do not want to flood this thread with all this. Please read the suggested thread or ask and I will restate any questions you have there (As much as possible by a shadetree jerk from Mississippi)

eddif

eddif, your ideas of filtering are great. BUT getting owners to implement your ideas is going to be a hard sell. You're just not going to get any CR owner to alter their fuel system at this point in time. Its going to take a few more years and failures out of warranty before someone takes the risk to put your ideas to work. I can see someone that has an out of warranty car that has traces of aluminum in their fuel filter willing to take the risk of installing additional filtering. BUT right now there isn't a necessity for that risk. The risk is just too high as long as VW is covering the cost of hpfp failures. Once VW no longer covers the cost of a hpfp failure..................everything changes.

 

[oxford_guy]

What about when the fuel system fails right after the warranty expires because of cumulative damage?

 

[tcp_ip_dude]

What about when the fuel system fails right after the warranty expires because of cumulative damage?

Then step up and install Eddif's proposed filters. Put your money were your mouth is.

 

[Derrel H Green]

Never Happen

Then step up and install Eddif's proposed filters. Put your money were your mouth is.

Ha . . oxford_guy do that? It'll never happen! He's got a late '11.
Were a problem to occur, it would be far down the line don't you know?



D

 

[oxford_guy]

Then step up and install Eddif's proposed filters. Put your money were your mouth is.

This isn't about me at all. It is a general point that responds to Dweisel's general point. I'm not sure why using me as a distraction is helpful.

 

[P0234]

While I was at Lindsay VW, the sales guy was telling me about one of their own filling up a TDI with gas before they transfered it to another dealership. Of course "no damage was caused"......right.....

 

[ZiggyTheHamster]

While I was at Lindsay VW, the sales guy was telling me about one of their own filling up a TDI with gas before they transfered it to another dealership. Of course "no damage was caused"......right.....

If I were at a dealer, and they admitted to misfueling a vehicle, and they carry more than one of those vehicles, that would be the last time I ever set foot at that dealer.

I don't know how many times the car says "Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel Only", but it's at least 3 times that I can think of. And the cap says "Diesel" twice.

 

[DEZLBOY]

While I was at Lindsay VW, the sales guy was telling me about one of their own filling up a TDI with gas before they transfered it to another dealership. Of course "no damage was caused"......right.....

So the question is did Lindsay tell the receiving dealership and how likely is it that the car buyer was informed? I say 75% on the first, but "I gar-on-tee!" the buyer was left in the dark.

Ethical? And is it ethical for VW to sell the current TDI without telling the buyer of the fuel pump issue?

 

[LRTDI]

So the question is did Lindsay tell the receiving dealership and how likely is it that the car buyer was informed? I say 75% on the first, but "I gar-on-tee!" the buyer was left in the dark.

Ethical? And is it ethical for VW to sell the current TDI without telling the buyer of the fuel pump issue?

Definitely not Ethical when Ethanol is added.....

 

[Conan]

Definitely not Ethical when Ethanol is added.....

That's an interesting point that I hadn't seen mentioned on here. If RUG is a pump-killer, then (I would guess) E85 would be even worse. I wonder if anyone (Bosch) has ever spun up a HPFP on a test bench, running gasoline through it until it grenades. It would be interesting to disassemble the pump at different gas-run intervals, and see how the thing starts to come apart.

 

[oxford_guy]

E85 makes me laugh for a variety of reasons, but one of them is that it really should be called E70. Pumps say "contains a minimum of 70% ethanol".

 

[eddif]

Here is another car that died on the road and probably was a safety issue.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=326549

eddif

 

[Claudio]

surprisingly the cover it under warranty at 84K miles...

 

[Derrel H Green]

Surprisingly they cover it under warranty at 84K miles . .

Perhaps 'they' are starting to see the handwriting on the wall and are finally
realizing that they had better start taking care of this problem or what
little good representation they have left will be totally lost!

Whatever, if they will do it for one person, won't they have to do it also for others
that might experince the same problem at higher mileages when 'out-of-warranty'?



D

 

[dweisel]

Perhaps 'they' are starting to see the handwriting on the wall and are finally
realizing that they had better start taking care of this problem or what
little good representation they have left will be totally lost!
Whatever, if they will do it for one person, won't they have to do it also for others
that might experince the same problem at higher mileages when 'out-of-warranty'?

D

My understanding is that,right now VW is covering ALL hpfp failures until they determine the cause. So,even cars out of warranty will be covered at this point in time. BUT,thats all subject to change.

 

[tico27464]

My understanding is that,right now VW is covering ALL hpfp failures until they determine the cause. So,even cars out of warranty will be covered at this point in time. BUT,thats all subject to change.

I wonder what the threshold mileage would be for them? Surely an '09 w/ 150K mi on the clock wouldn't be covered...would it? I'd love to hear I'm wrong about this. But this is why I'd rather mine go tomorrow or not at all.
~T

 

[Elfnmagik]

I've got 52K on the clock and getting nervous. I'm considering scheduling an appointment with the dealer to discuss/document the rusted rods on my lift pump, the sediment in the fuel, filter canister, and filter.

 

[STRANGETDI]

I am currently working with a few dealers right now as I am ready to get a 2012 TDI. Consumer Reports states that everything is good to excellent except the fuel delivery category. I beleive the latest data is for a 2010 or 2011. How is this problem being treated. I know there have been a few revisions of pumps since the issue started.
Are the pump failures related to diesel blends (biodiesel and veggie oil, and others) and such. I would use straight diesel and power service at fill ups, just like I have been for all these years with my 1999.5.

Just trying to get as much info as I can before I purchase my new VW.

 

[oxford_guy]

I know there have been a few revisions of pumps since the issue started.

There has been speculation about this but I haven't yet seen any hard evidence.

My understanding is that,right now VW is covering ALL hpfp failures until they determine the cause. So,even cars out of warranty will be covered at this point in time. BUT,thats all subject to change.

Is there anything in writing? Maybe, if VW is indeed covering out-of-warranty failed HPFPs, the reason is the current class-action lawsuit. I find it hard to believe that the cause hasn't been determined (the cause other than mis-fueling).

 

[Lightflyer1]

They fail with straight diesel. Bio (>5%) and veggi are not allowed in the newer models. The issue of HPFP failures seems to be tapering off as newer models have come out since 2009 or VW is covering them and not being reported by users as they are covered. Some use additves but IIRC some of those have failed as well (I may be wrong though about this). They are under investigation still by the NHTSA for this and no results have been released as yet that I know of. Good luck!

 

[dweisel]

They fail with straight diesel. Bio (>5%) and veggi are not allowed in the newer models. The issue of HPFP failures seems to be tapering off as newer models have come out since 2009 or VW is covering them and not being reported by users as they are covered. Some use additves but IIRC some of those have failed as well (I may be wrong though about this). They are under investigation still by the NHTSA for this and no results have been released as yet that I know of. Good luck!

I really wouldn't say failures are tappering off. Right now we have approximately 2/1 09's as compared to 2010 MY which have been out about half as long. So, 2010's would seem to have about the same failure rate as 2009's. The 2011's have not been out long enough to draw any conclussions yet.
2009 54 failures
2010 26 failures
2011 6 failures

 

[kjclow]

Doesn't VW allow up to 5% bio?

 

[JSWTDI09]

Doesn't VW allow up to 5% bio?

Yes, what made you think otherwise? Lightflyer1's comment (above) was that Bio greater than 5% is not allowed. 5% or less is officially approved by VW.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[kjclow]

missed the > sign

 

[MacBuckeye]

"IF" VW is really taking ownership and have started paying for any/all HPFP's that fail (not for the gasoline filled), then would it not be cheaper for VW to have current owners with XXX1234 HPFP's come to the dealership for a newer version HPFP? A new HPFP is certainly cheaper than replacing the entire fuel system!

I'm sure we would rather have a new HPFP installed than have to go through the hassle of a possible wreck, getting stranded, towing charges, loaner vehicle, new fuel system, pain and suffering, hotel bill (while being stranded in some strange city), etc. etc. See where I'm going with this?

And to add to Dweisel's point, those failures (i believe) are only Member failures. Think about all those poor soles who purchased a TDI that crapped out on them! I'm sure there are a lot more failures out there... a lot more.

 

[NickBeek]

Mac, you can bet some bean counter has run the numbers and decided it is less expensive to do it the way they are. Remember we are not sure they have the problem solved yet. Only VW knows and they aren't talking.

 

[securityguy]

I typically don't keep cars longer than 2 years but my wife and I love our Jetta. I really thought I'd keep it for several years to come and possibly pass it down to one of my twin boys while their in college but nixed that idea due to the possibility of them putting gas in it or having a HPFP grenade on them. I have decided to keep it up to 100K miles and then get rid of it. I bought the 5/100K mile VW warranty just in case anythying out of the ordinary happends but feel that 100K is plenty for me which I should hit in the next 2 years. Maybe by then, all of the HPFP issues and speculation will be behind us.

 

[kjclow]

"IF" VW is really taking ownership and have started paying for any/all HPFP's that fail (not for the gasoline filled), then would it not be cheaper for VW to have current owners with XXX1234 HPFP's come to the dealership for a newer version HPFP? A new HPFP is certainly cheaper than replacing the entire fuel system!

And to add to Dweisel's point, those failures (i believe) are only Member failures. Think about all those poor soles who purchased a TDI that crapped out on them! I'm sure there are a lot more failures out there... a lot more.

As nick said, we don't know for sure if the latest HPFP has solved the problems. Not enough time on them to know absolutely. If you figure a replacement charge of $1000 (est) per HPFP and VW has seen less than 1% failures to date, then you can see the economics of only working on the failures at $8000. Even at $100 per HPFP, VW is still ahead only fixing the failures. Based on that, I would not be surprised to see a "lifetime" warranty for the fuel system come out of this investigation.

Hopefully, Since VW is already involved with the NHTSA investigation, they will report all failures not just those of the effected tdiclub members.

 

[Conan]

...I would not be surprised to see a "lifetime" warranty for the fuel system come out of this investigation.

That would be the ideal solution for us, but I seriously doubt that VW will just volunteer for that.