NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation
- Thread starter dzcad90
- Start date
Have you followed the HPFP examination thread? Do you have any suggestions without having a pump in hand? Can you coat parts with high tech DLC, etc. ?
eddif
oxford_guy
Veteran Member
VW sanctions biodiesel up to B5, and all you need is 1-2% to get adequate lubricity.
You can add a quart of B100 to one tank of USLD if you don't have B1-B5 in your area.
Curkkic
Veteran Member
Acutally I havent, I have purposfully avoided it untill I can draw my own conclusions on how one pump fails, Later compare it to others. multiple uninfluenced investigations should yield more options to correct the pumps flaws, more importantly, openly identify them. all is in the air till i have one in my hands. Its a big project, as such it will take a considerable amount of time to fully evaluate. Then the testing of alternatives, further still is the fabrication of a functional replacement.
Bosch sent with steel head and steel plungers on A3 and A4 chassis for the high pressure side, 4 rollers on a merry go round cam, and 10 or 11mm diameter plunger to get the pressure they had before.
Why would they go with a bigger piston/ plunger, at higher pressure, one roller, not 4, and try to run it with no rings, no motor oil, no nothing for lubrication except fuel, in an Aluminum bore?
Seems a stupid design to me, destined for failure.
Didn't Bosch learn anything from Chevrolet's Vega aluminum block/aluminum pistons in the early 1970's and what a failure that was? Asking aluminum to play nice with a steel piston with the lubricity of current diesel fuel, regardless of coating, seems like a folly to me.
Why would they go with a bigger piston/ plunger, at higher pressure, one roller, not 4, and try to run it with no rings, no motor oil, no nothing for lubrication except fuel, in an Aluminum bore?
Seems a stupid design to me, destined for failure.
Didn't Bosch learn anything from Chevrolet's Vega aluminum block/aluminum pistons in the early 1970's and what a failure that was? Asking aluminum to play nice with a steel piston with the lubricity of current diesel fuel, regardless of coating, seems like a folly to me.
The trick, in my opinion, is finding a pump that is just showing the very first early signs of failure. When you have a pump that is destroyed you can not really tell how the problem began. The only pump that had any photos and put back in service, just had the pump roller turn what looks like blue (dis-colored) from heat (?) and had a few scratches.
You can look, and go through developing your own thoughts. I would, however, respectfully submit: that the roller assembly and roller assembly slider bore is the place to start the investigation and planning of HPFP improvement. Just what the improvements should be --- I do not know.
eddif
CedarPark68
Veteran Member
eddif,
Why not supply Curkkic with your pump as your analysis has run its course?
I posted before and still content that only VW and Bosch will resolve this issue. I do however applaud all effort from independent investigation.
Why not supply Curkkic with your pump as your analysis has run its course?
I posted before and still content that only VW and Bosch will resolve this issue. I do however applaud all effort from independent investigation.
leicaman
Top Post Dawg
My friend who had a 2009 TDI sportwagen, just traded his at the dealer as a deposit for a new 2012 Passat TDI SEL. He had like 50k on his with nary a problem. That said however, I'd never buy a 2009 just because of the HPFP. It should prove interesting how his new ride will fare. I looked at a 2012 TDI SEL today. Of course it looks lovely and it is. But of course time will tell.
dweisel
Top Post Dawg
I disagree. eddif isn't done yet. I say keep the pump he has. Failed pumps are hard to come by and even harder to come by now that VW is replacing ALL hpfps under warranty.(at least for now) So,this means there may not be any failed pumps available for awhile.VW keeps all failed warranty pumps. If you noticed since VW is now covering the pumps you have not seen any reports of failed pumps. Covered under warranty..............not a problem. Not worth talking about.
Also a satisfied customer is less apt to report to the NHTSA if the failure is taken care of under warranty without a fuss.
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CJ081610
Well-known member
@Oxford_Guy- Hi- I assume you're up at Miami U? I have a 2011 TDI, 6M. Have about 1300 miles on it thus far and have filled up twice without adding any additive. Do you know where I can buy some B100? I'm down here in West Chester. Also, what year is your TDi? Miles? Any issues or concerns besides the HPFP? Glad to hear that VW is now covering the issue via warranty. Would love to see photo. Thanks! PS- my wife is a Miami Grad!
I feel guilty every time I post on this thread, because it is a NHTSA investigation thread. Let me see if I can post so it fits the thread.
The failures seem to occur if just a quart of gasoline gets in a tank of diesel fuel. At that point the car dies on the interstate or goes into limp mode. And if you have just pulled out in traffic and limp mode hits suddenly and unexpectedly you are a safety hazzard big time (without limp mode you can zoom out of danger).
To cover that 32 oz of gasoline you would need ????. 16:1 ratio of 2-stroke oil? Plus some extra Bio or oil? This would have to be pre mixed with the gasoline? How do you plan for such a disaster?
You can't with any forethought that I can come up with.
That 32oz could enter the diesel fuel in all sorts of ways. Fuel transport, emergency gas can filled with diesel?
Worse yet. Say you get 2 gallons of gasoline or other contaminant that enters the fuel pickup almost raw (turpentine, water,etc). At 16:1 you would need 16 oz (?) of 2-stroke oil and 16 oz (?) of bio pre-mixed just to drive the car up on a trailer for transport to a dealer for draining and filter change.
See how stupid all this is. There needs to be the old-fashioned over built pump that will take a little abuse. There is no Mercy built into the existing HPFP. And even then accidental contaminates would run the risk of killing even a super pump.
And! I have not even mentioned the $8,000 USD part.
Dweisel is correct. Warranty makes problems go away. When warranty ends we will hear of a lot more disasters (both monetary and physical). Right now we are living in fantasy land. When warranty and insurance is gone and folks are trying to drive to work with a failing HPFP, how many traffic accidents will occur?
I suggest everyone get to an appropriate thread and work on the problems. Regretfully I am probably the most negligent person here. I actually believe an added filtering system would help a huge amount. Two simple adapters should allow an added filter, that could make a failure cost $2,000 USD, rather than $8,000 USD, and I am not presently working on the CRs. Right now I am trying to save the PDs (since I own one that is facing eminent failure). I need more dedication and production.
A fuel water sensor and drain is desperately needed for that 1:1,000 chance of water in fuel.
A pump / system purge system would be great too.
The Mississippi shade tree jerk who wants to improve
eddif
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Harvieux
Vendor , w/Business number
The above part of eddif's post is pretty much what I have been preaching since inception.
Everything else is most likely pure speculation unless forensic and engineering data can be produced to back such claims.
I also agree that this issue is totally on the shoulders of Bosch and VWAG and a viable resolution should come from them, however, I also believe the NHTSA has the duty to act the moment they are convinced via their investigation that this could be a safety hazard and should do so sooner rather than later. The part regarding the unconscionable cost of such a repair that is not covered or happens out of warranty should eventually catch up with those who are not sheep by refusing to be an owner of their products. Later!
Ouch
I think I got pretty much lashed. However I really understand how the last PDs and CRs have stopped the ability of Harvieux and others to deal with diesel VWs. All of us are suffering and some are cautious enough to make judgements on how we buy, sell and use the cars.
"Everything else is most likely pure speculation unless forensic and engineering data can be produced to back such claims."
As a shadetree feller from Mississippi:
When you see all the trash trying to go through a clogged up pressure bypass valve screen (ask Dweisel) that is pretty much forensic.
When you trace down the flow in the HPFP and find a clogged by-pass valve will raise the pressure in the pump housing and thus raise the internal HPFP casing pressure. That is some sort of Mississippi information.
And when the cars set pressure codes I would think that is getting close to engineering data.
I am fighting with no one, I am not irritated with anyone. We just have a history of having to do a lot of the work ourselves. I have put High Volume oil pumps in air-cooled VWs. Bored magnesium blocks for oversized main bearings. Replaced pulled head studs (The first repair can be heli-coils or inserts with smaller studs, etc). Read of blow-by baffels for 1.6 VW Diesels to stop run-away. Modified cam bearings in PDs (I got another 65,000 extra miles ---In my mind, but maybe not in others thoughts.)
There have been probably thousands of dropped exhaust valves in air-cooled VWs. Sure a safety hazard on the road.
I have met folks trying to limp home in an air cooled VW that the insulation had pulled off the engine compartment and was up against the cooling fan intake. The car must have pulled almost every head stud. I just helped them pull out the insulation panel and watched them limp home (another safety hazard). etc. etc.
Ain't hit a mess? LOL
eddif
Harvieux
Vendor , w/Business number
My post was not meant in any way, shape, or form to lash you. I was mainly referring to such claims as 32 oz. of gas claim along with fact that no one, TTBOMK, other than "possibly" VW or Bosch knows exactly why these pumps are failing. Later!
aja8888
Top Post Dawg
If I was a test engineer at Bosch, I would currently be dumping different substances (gasoline, additives, water, etc) into D2 to do bench test runs on the HPFP for root cause failure analysis....... Hey, that should have been done prior to 2009!. 
jbright
Veteran Member
DPM, a member from N. Ireland, wrote this on a thread in the A-5 forum, last week or so http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=323508&page=3:
That's the way it is with CR systems of all brands, and the way it's been for the past ten years and more. We went through the same problems "last millennium" with the CP1 pumps here in Europe. The slightest sniff of adulterated fuel killed pumps, worn in-tank pumps killed pumps; dead pumps took out injectors, tanks full of metal swarf needed replaced etc etc.
Oddly tho, it isn't such a problem any more...
So it seems that Bosch should already know about these matters. (I wonder if the above havoc caused Europe to raise it's diesel fuel standards.)
That's the way it is with CR systems of all brands, and the way it's been for the past ten years and more. We went through the same problems "last millennium" with the CP1 pumps here in Europe. The slightest sniff of adulterated fuel killed pumps, worn in-tank pumps killed pumps; dead pumps took out injectors, tanks full of metal swarf needed replaced etc etc.
Oddly tho, it isn't such a problem any more...
So it seems that Bosch should already know about these matters. (I wonder if the above havoc caused Europe to raise it's diesel fuel standards.)
And then you should add bits of shaving and metal to the fuel too, from a failed HPFP and bench test it to see what happens, with a timer on it. See how long it takes, Mean Time Between Failure.If I was a test engineer at Bosch, I would currently be dumping different substances (gasoline, additives, water, etc) into D2 to do bench test runs on the HPFP for root cause failure analysis....... Hey, that should have been done prior to 2009!.
kjclow
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2003
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- TDI
- 2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
If I was a test engineer at Bosch, I would currently be dumping different substances (gasoline, additives, water, etc) into D2 to do bench test runs on the HPFP for root cause failure analysis....... Hey, that should have been done prior to 2009!.
Wasn't that part of the report posted somewhere back in the beginning? That's how we have "determined" that the D2 fuel in the states does not have a high enough lubricity rating (or scar rating). IIRC, the report was done by Bosch.
I may just think too highly of myself. Sure always is a possibility.
Adequate lubricity? Adequate if no contaminates (gasoline, water) hits the pump. No reasonable margin of protection).
If 1 1/2 ounces of gasoline per gallon of diesel fuel was the limit in the 60s (?) with no turbo. That probably has not changed and even today 1 oz of gasoline per gallon is probably way too much. I might as well offer a thought about an amount. I really do / will not feel bad about being wrong. 16 oz of gasoline in my 13 gallon Isuzu diesel tank would be about the same ratio. The amount of gasoline was based on partial history.
If a small amount of lubricant helps the situation, why would not a small amount of drier hurt the situation. Makes sense to a feeble minded fellow from Mississippi.
VW has the engineers and computers to know. Would it be logical to think they do know? Yes??? Would it be logical to think thay are going to try and stay just above warranty mileages? I seriously doubt they will make a 500,000 mile pump.
Since we have not been told the answer, it is logical to me to try and arrive at the problems. I do not think everyone that belongs to tdiclub should know what is wrong, but there are several people way smarter than me that I listen to (both education and / or practical experience wise).
Industry is loading parts to the very limit of their capacity. VW appears to need a better coating on the HPFP roller holder. I might as well be proved wrong here as well. I do not think we should all hide in fear of being wrong. Wild eyed guessing is dangerous--I agree. But being afraid to think is just as dangerous.
As club members, all we can probably do is filtering and additives. I suggest we have at trying to do as much as possible. We should also try and encourage each other to arrive at a plan before warranty is gone for the now new CRs.
Shadetree LOL (laughing to keep from crying)
eddif
Harvieux
Vendor , w/Business number
I also recall a post way back which specified that Bosch gave VWAG a choice of pumps to go into the final production and Bosch recommended a specific pump and VW's bean counters chose the cheap route. I don't know how credible this is but, it sure stuck in my head as a possibility knowing VW as we do, eh? Later!
Later!
El Dobro
Top Post Dawg
It would be nice to see a copy of an internal memo like that.I also recall a post way back which specified that Bosch gave VWAG a choice of pumps to go into the final production and Bosch recommended a specific pump and VW's bean counters chose the cheap route. I don't know how credible this is but, it sure stuck in my head as a possibility knowing VW as we do, eh?
Harvieux
Vendor , w/Business number
Tell me about it! As intrusive as our govt. is to our citizens at this point, it would sure be nice if the NHTSA had such intrusive power to go into VW's internal dbase and weed out such possibilities. I would bet there are some smokin guns in them there archives, eh?
Later!oxford_guy
Veteran Member
Part of keeping us safe is keeping unpleasant information out of our hands.
Drive more, worry less!
Drive more, worry less!
Keeping us safe. Hmm
Emergency training classes:
Your car has just gone in to limp mode - these are the 5 things to do .......
Your car has just lost all power - these are the 6 things to do......
I would think unpleasant as the preperation for disaster is; there is no way to Drive more and worry less. When you are driving a vehicle that tends to have major failures you need to be informed and trained for disaster.
The other option is that the cars are made more reliable so we do not have to discuss panic situations.
LOL
eddif
Harvieux
Vendor , w/Business number
Yup, that's what Arthur Neville "Chamberlain" promoted after his 1938 meeting with Adolf ******.
Later!
tdisky
Veteran Member
"We will have robust high pressure fuel pumps in our time."
GTIDan
Veteran Member
Before you jump on the biofuel bandwagen you might want to read this post taken from another TDI forum (Myturbodiesel.com). I knew there must be a reason VW does not 'overly' recommend biodiesel............here it it is:
Using biodiesel up to B100 with a 2009 or newer VW Jetta TDI, Golf TDI, or Audi A3 TDI
The newer common rail TDI engines (CRD) in VW Jetta TDI or other models with DPF will run as well on biodiesel as older TDI engines ran fine on biodiesel. However, using biodiesel has three main problems. During the post injection combustion, it can collect in the cylinder instead of vaporizing and raising the EGT to heat up the DPF, preventing normal active DPF regenerations. By not vaporizing, biodiesel works its way into the engine oil much more than diesel. Because biodiesel has a higher distillation and boiling point, once it's in the oil, it accumulates and dilutes the engine oil.
There's always greater engine oil dilution during a post combustion injection cycle but regular diesel can evaporate more easily than biodiesel out of the engine oil. Once it evaporates, it's recycled into the air intake by the crankcase ventilation system and consumed by the engine. Biodiesel accumulates because it doesn't evaporate as easily. At a 2008 biodiesel conference, a VW representative said the engine could tolerate up to 50% fuel mix in the oil but no more. (source) This level could be exceeded after 10,000 miles with just B5. B10 would definitely exceed this level.
Some possible solutions are to delete the DPF on your VW or Audi TDI or install a DPF bypass kit. The engine tuning must also be adjusted to account for the removal of post combustion injection of fuel and DPF removal. It might be possible to tune the post combustion injection to have bio produce the same results as regular diesel.
The future of DPF systems might substitute an extra injector in the exhaust to inject the post combustion fuel downstream of the engine instead of right in the engine cylinder. This type of system is required if the DPF is downstream of the Adblue or NOx catalyst. Modern systems which don't use post combustion injection at the engine use this type of injection. In fact, when TDI was first introduced to North America, the VW Passat TDI used a low pressure injector in the exhaust to burn up fuel in the catalyst. It was discontinued because it didn't work very well, see 1000q: VW Passat 5th injector for details. Technology has improved since 1994-1995 so it's possible this type of system might return. The main obstacle is additional complexity and cost vs. an extra squirt at the existing fuel injectors.
Trace metals in the biodiesel from processing can also accumulate and foul SCR catalysts. On Adblue equipped cars like the Touareg or Q7 TDI, (see below for a detailed system description), most contaminants will be trapped by the upstream DPF. The level of trace metals are also so small that the SCR should be more tolerant of contamination and last the "real" lifetime of the car, or over 400,000 miles.
For more basic information about biodiesel and VW, see 1000q: intro to biodiesel.
tditom
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2001
- Location
- Jackson, MI
- TDI
- formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
Dan-
The suggestion was to use up to 5% biodiesel. Nothing you shared from the other site would contradict that.
The suggestion was to use up to 5% biodiesel. Nothing you shared from the other site would contradict that.
TDIMeister
Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
JSWTDI09
Top Post Dawg
Wow! Thanks TDIMeister! It looks like I have plenty of reading for this weekend. You gotta love this place as a source of information.
Have Fun!
Don
Have Fun!
Don