NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

SilverGhost

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Location
Back in So Flo - St Lucie
TDI
'05 Golf - totaled :(, wife's '13 Beetle - buy back, TDIless
My fuel looks very clean other than the metal shards in it, so my guess is manufacturer defect. My filter was just changed 15k ago
I have now talked to a couple different people on the subject and the consensus is the piezo crystals in the injectors shatter and the resulting debris chews up the HPFP. No doubt a stronger pump wouldn't have grenaded like the CP4. Part of the back up for this statement is to look at how many Passat CR have destroyed a HPFP, knowing that the injectors are NOT piezo on those cars.

I don't know why VW is so mum on the subject, but probably has to do with liability for the couple hundred thousand Jetta/Golf/Beetle TDIs that use that injector. Admit a problem and its DieselGate 2.0.

BTW - Highlighted in red, you need a scan tool to properly purge the air bubbles from the fuel system after changing a fuel filter. I watched a "know it all" tech just crank the engine until it started. In the process air got into the injectors and they failed. Some scan tool readings with tech line and an engineer found the failed injectors.

My take on it is they are a weak point that may fail, so don't temp fate. Purge the air like repair manual says and avoid the headache.

Jason
 

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT
To Jason's post I'll add...
Don't take your car to the dealer because they are no longer required to purge the air from the fuel system when they change the fuel filter.
 

Buckwild90

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 18, 2014
Location
memphis,Tn
TDI
2013 golf tdi with dsg(Buyback), 2001 Jetta tdi 5mt 414k miles, 2002 Jetta 5mt 289k miles
I have now talked to a couple different people on the subject and the consensus is the piezo crystals in the injectors shatter and the resulting debris chews up the HPFP. No doubt a stronger pump wouldn't have grenaded like the CP4. Part of the back up for this statement is to look at how many Passat CR have destroyed a HPFP, knowing that the injectors are NOT piezo on those cars.

I don't know why VW is so mum on the subject, but probably has to do with liability for the couple hundred thousand Jetta/Golf/Beetle TDIs that use that injector. Admit a problem and its DieselGate 2.0.

BTW - Highlighted in red, you need a scan tool to properly purge the air bubbles from the fuel system after changing a fuel filter. I watched a "know it all" tech just crank the engine until it started. In the process air got into the injectors and they failed. Some scan tool readings with tech line and an engineer found the failed injectors.

My take on it is they are a weak point that may fail, so don't temp fate. Purge the air like repair manual says and avoid the headache.

Jason

I always have mine done at a trusted tdi mechanic, that uses vag-Com to prime the pumps. That's the only reason I don't do it myself.
 

SemperFido

Active member
Joined
May 30, 2016
Location
Dayton, OH but formerly everywhere
TDI
2010 Audio Q7 Prestige 3.0 TDI
Engine replaced along with hpfp

First post so if I screw this up I apologize. I bought a 2010 Audi with 3.0 TDI in the process of researching the car I looked at the carfax and this is a copy of one of the services at 43k miles
Maintenance inspection completed
A/C refrigerant recharged
Air filter replaced
Antifreeze/coolant flushed/changed
Cooling system hose(s) replaced
Cylinder head gasket(s) replaced
Engine compression checked
Engine removed to complete repair
Engine replaced
Fuel filter replaced
Fuel level sending unit replaced
Fuel pump replaced
Fuel rail replaced
Fuel system bled
Fuel tank drained and cleaned
Intake manifold gasket(s) replaced
Long block replaced
Valve cover gasket(s) replaced

So I called the dealer to get more info. Audi towed it in for not starting. Found hpfp problem replaced it, the lines, sending unit etc.... and Audi paid for engine replacement. Couldn't get any more info out of the dealer because I wasn't the owner at the time but thought it was good info to pass on to other owners dealing with HPFP failure.

Hope this is the correct place to post this since it is HPFP issue and just passing info. If not feel free to move it and blast me
 

MRO1791

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2015
Location
Western Washington
TDI
2015 Cruze TD (x2), 2009 Dodge Cummins
First post so if I screw this up I apologize. I bought a 2010 Audi with 3.0 TDI in the process of researching the car I looked at the carfax and this is a copy of one of the services at 43k miles
Maintenance inspection completed
A/C refrigerant recharged
Air filter replaced
Antifreeze/coolant flushed/changed
Cooling system hose(s) replaced
Cylinder head gasket(s) replaced
Engine compression checked
Engine removed to complete repair
Engine replaced
Fuel filter replaced
Fuel level sending unit replaced
Fuel pump replaced
Fuel rail replaced
Fuel system bled
Fuel tank drained and cleaned
Intake manifold gasket(s) replaced
Long block replaced
Valve cover gasket(s) replaced

So I called the dealer to get more info. Audi towed it in for not starting. Found hpfp problem replaced it, the lines, sending unit etc.... and Audi paid for engine replacement. Couldn't get any more info out of the dealer because I wasn't the owner at the time but thought it was good info to pass on to other owners dealing with HPFP failure.

Hope this is the correct place to post this since it is HPFP issue and just passing info. If not feel free to move it and blast me
Yes, looks like it had a fuel system disaster, and some other serious issues. You have an entire engine swapped out there. The root cause could have started with a HPFP, or it could be unrelated.. but hopefully they have it all ironed out.. and you have some kind of warranty for those repairs.. as those are very big expensive redo repairs if you end up going there. Good luck.
 

MRO1791

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2015
Location
Western Washington
TDI
2015 Cruze TD (x2), 2009 Dodge Cummins
I have now talked to a couple different people on the subject and the consensus is the piezo crystals in the injectors shatter and the resulting debris chews up the HPFP. No doubt a stronger pump wouldn't have grenaded like the CP4. Part of the back up for this statement is to look at how many Passat CR have destroyed a HPFP, knowing that the injectors are NOT piezo on those cars.

I don't know why VW is so mum on the subject, but probably has to do with liability for the couple hundred thousand Jetta/Golf/Beetle TDIs that use that injector. Admit a problem and its DieselGate 2.0.

BTW - Highlighted in red, you need a scan tool to properly purge the air bubbles from the fuel system after changing a fuel filter. I watched a "know it all" tech just crank the engine until it started. In the process air got into the injectors and they failed. Some scan tool readings with tech line and an engineer found the failed injectors.

My take on it is they are a weak point that may fail, so don't temp fate. Purge the air like repair manual says and avoid the headache.

Jason
I can't see how the injectors can ever come apart and have particles flow back against 5-30 ksi to hit the fuel pump.. the common rail is kept at pressure, and there is no known operating condition where I can see flow going back to the pump.. I guess I would have to look again, I seem to recall rail pressure relief goes back to the filter.. In any case, others have seen the trend you note as well, but it may have more to do with typical operating pressure of the common rail, it is my understanding that the solenoid injectors work at a slightly lower pressure, that equates to lower stress on the pump Cam Roller, where the failure is happening. I'd bet that has more to do with the correlation than the injectors themselves, and there are reported early failures on the Passats, which I seem to recall always had the solenoid system.. I might have a few details off, just going off memory here. Others might be able to confirm or correct.
 

SemperFido

Active member
Joined
May 30, 2016
Location
Dayton, OH but formerly everywhere
TDI
2010 Audio Q7 Prestige 3.0 TDI
Yes, looks like it had a fuel system disaster, and some other serious issues. You have an entire engine swapped out there. The root cause could have started with a HPFP, or it could be unrelated.. but hopefully they have it all ironed out.. and you have some kind of warranty for those repairs.. as those are very big expensive redo repairs if you end up going there. Good luck.
This was 33k miles ago so not too worried. It came with 12 and 12 but gone already. The funny thing was they replaced it twice within 100 miles. According to the dealer the engine and all fuel system parts were replaced and upon test driving it the engine and fuel system was replaced again before it even went back to the customer. Not sure what would have failed the second time to require replacing all of the components again. Whatever, I'm happy since I have a 33k mile TDI motor with all new fuel system and 120k warranty on the HPFP. Pays to do your research I guess.
 

PlaneCrazy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Location
Province of Quebec, Canada
TDI
Gone...
I can't see how the injectors can ever come apart and have particles flow back against 5-30 ksi to hit the fuel pump.. the common rail is kept at pressure, and there is no known operating condition where I can see flow going back to the pump.. I guess I would have to look again, I seem to recall rail pressure relief goes back to the filter.. In any case, others have seen the trend you note as well, but it may have more to do with typical operating pressure of the common rail, it is my understanding that the solenoid injectors work at a slightly lower pressure, that equates to lower stress on the pump Cam Roller, where the failure is happening. I'd bet that has more to do with the correlation than the injectors themselves, and there are reported early failures on the Passats, which I seem to recall always had the solenoid system.. I might have a few details off, just going off memory here. Others might be able to confirm or correct.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression that while the rail is kept at a constant pressure, the amount of fuel is metered according to load on the engine, and any excess beyond what is needed is returned to the fuel tank.

http://carnbikeexpert.com/new-and-old-automobile-technology/engine/common-rail-direct-fuel-injection-engine/

http://www.slideshare.net/amgadradhihadi/common-rail-diesel-fuel-systems

(see slide 6)

That would mean that hypothetically if an injector shatters, bits can find themselves downstream of the injector on the return line to the fuel tank. I have no idea if the filters would be able to trap the injector particles, but perhaps enough abrasive material would get through to score the pump with time.
 
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Claudio

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Location
IL
TDI
09 Jetta SW
i have always replaced the fuel filter by myself without purging any air.
I currently have 175K miles on my 09

Procedure:

remove cap
remove old filter
install new filter
fill filter canister with DieselKleen (gray or white depending on season
close cap
drive

Several members of this boars are following the exact same procedure with no problem
 

NAZ TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Location
now Kuna, Idaho
TDI
2015 Jetta TDI DSG
BTW - Highlighted in red, you need a scan tool to properly purge the air bubbles from the fuel system after changing a fuel filter. I watched a "know it all" tech just crank the engine until it started. In the process air got into the injectors and they failed. Some scan tool readings with tech line and an engineer found the failed injectors.

My take on it is they are a weak point that may fail, so don't temp fate. Purge the air like repair manual says and avoid the headache.

Jason[/QUOTE]
Just pull the fuel pump relay and use a jumper wire to run the pump to purge the air before starting. Works for me.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
That would mean that hypothetically if an injector shatters, bits can find themselves downstream of the injector on the return line to the fuel tank. I have no idea if the filters would be able to trap the injector particles, but perhaps enough abrasive material would get through to score the pump with time.
The pipe from the common rail to the injector only has one-way flow and there is no return. I, also, don't see how hypothetical bits of shattered piezo crystal could ever go backwards against the fuel flow in the last part of the pipe from the common-rail to the injector.

I think the reduced failure rate later on has everything to do with reduced rail pressure on the models with solenoid injectors. The forces and stresses on the internal components in the pump is in proportion to the rail pressure, but the relationship between stress and fatigue life is highly non-linear (a small increase in stress beyond a certain threshold dramatically reduces the fatigue life - and conversely, a small reduction in stress can dramatically increase the fatigue life).
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
This was 33k miles ago so not too worried. It came with 12 and 12 but gone already. The funny thing was they replaced it twice within 100 miles. According to the dealer the engine and all fuel system parts were replaced and upon test driving it the engine and fuel system was replaced again before it even went back to the customer. Not sure what would have failed the second time to require replacing all of the components again. Whatever, I'm happy since I have a 33k mile TDI motor with all new fuel system and 120k warranty on the HPFP. Pays to do your research I guess.
It was not unusual for systems to have to be replaced multiple times if the dealer did not get all the crap out of the fuel tank and lines. There was at least one member that had her's done three times.
 

ApriliaNut

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Location
SoCal
TDI
06 pkg 1 Jetta 191k w/Malone Stage 2
Reading the report, as an Engineer, and in light of other deceptions by VW.. Here are salient points that are exposed:

- VW flat out miscalculated mis-fuel the central issue, by a factor of 10.. that is outrageous.

- The before and after failure rates with the idiotic mis-fuel guard are statistically unchanged.

- There is a high failure rate, and a vehicle test by VW with an intentional defect on the HPFP roller was run for 23 hours, but had a near instant engine fault, and went to limp mode (this VWs attempt to deny sudden power loss, thus safety issue, but it also shows how any defect in the HPFP causes a near instant power loss).

- It has been clear that VW is well aware a large number of failures are NOT from mis-fuel, yet the freely continue to tell the customer, they are WRONG. This should not be excused. It is outrageous.

This report does not deny there is a problem, in fact it basically proves there IS a problem.. but it says no evidence yet of an accident due to this failure. It also says they are continuing to monitor the situation.

Now, full disclosure, I DUMPED my 2012 TDI, when I dug into the engineering issues of the HPFP, and had metal in my filter, only to have VW tell me it was OK, and charge me to look at it, under WARRANTY. In this report they show a VW provided picture of the fuel filter, mine was not quite as bad, but did have metal particles.. in sharp contrast with my Diesel truck filter with many more miles, and MANY more gallons of fuel through it. This HPFP is way too sensitive to fuel lubricity, and that makes it a fragile at best design, but what's worse, the failure contaminates the entire system due to idiotic and avoidable fuel system design. There simply is no denying it, this HPFP and fuel flow path is an engineering flaw, there are fixes, like the CP3 kit, if you keep your car, I HIGHLY advise that kit.. I went to the Cruze Diesel with a much more robust HPFP, and it does not need an idiotic mis-fuel guard, it has a LARGE fuel neck that even big rig pump nozzles can fit, because it is poor design to have such a fragile pump, and the VW mis-fuel claim was a blame the customer tactic that is proven false in this report, if you read the details.

VW tried to save about $330 per car, with the emission cheat, and the CP4.1/4.2 saved even MORE over the proven reliable CP3 pump.. so it is not hard to figure out why they chose this pump, what is despicable is how they blame the customer, and deny the problem.. and still refuse to make it right. It's sad, because there were some aspects of the car I really liked, but how can I trust such a company? Pretty hard to do given this clear undeniable pattern.
EXCELLENT dissection and explanation of the problem.
Thank you.
I was thinking of purchasing a couple of year old JSW but now it is out of the question.
And the VW approach speaks volumes does it not! What is wrong with these people?
Shame on them
 

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Reading the report, as an Engineer, and in light of other deceptions by VW.. Here are salient points that are exposed:

- VW flat out miscalculated mis-fuel the central issue, by a factor of 10.. that is outrageous.

- The before and after failure rates with the idiotic mis-fuel guard are statistically unchanged.

- There is a high failure rate, and a vehicle test by VW with an intentional defect on the HPFP roller was run for 23 hours, but had a near instant engine fault, and went to limp mode (this VWs attempt to deny sudden power loss, thus safety issue, but it also shows how any defect in the HPFP causes a near instant power loss).

- It has been clear that VW is well aware a large number of failures are NOT from mis-fuel, yet the freely continue to tell the customer, they are WRONG. This should not be excused. It is outrageous.

This report does not deny there is a problem, in fact it basically proves there IS a problem.. but it says no evidence yet of an accident due to this failure. It also says they are continuing to monitor the situation.

Now, full disclosure, I DUMPED my 2012 TDI, when I dug into the engineering issues of the HPFP, and had metal in my filter, only to have VW tell me it was OK, and charge me to look at it, under WARRANTY. In this report they show a VW provided picture of the fuel filter, mine was not quite as bad, but did have metal particles.. in sharp contrast with my Diesel truck filter with many more miles, and MANY more gallons of fuel through it. This HPFP is way too sensitive to fuel lubricity, and that makes it a fragile at best design, but what's worse, the failure contaminates the entire system due to idiotic and avoidable fuel system design. There simply is no denying it, this HPFP and fuel flow path is an engineering flaw, there are fixes, like the CP3 kit, if you keep your car, I HIGHLY advise that kit.. I went to the Cruze Diesel with a much more robust HPFP, and it does not need an idiotic mis-fuel guard, it has a LARGE fuel neck that even big rig pump nozzles can fit, because it is poor design to have such a fragile pump, and the VW mis-fuel claim was a blame the customer tactic that is proven false in this report, if you read the details.

VW tried to save about $330 per car, with the emission cheat, and the CP4.1/4.2 saved even MORE over the proven reliable CP3 pump.. so it is not hard to figure out why they chose this pump, what is despicable is how they blame the customer, and deny the problem.. and still refuse to make it right. It's sad, because there were some aspects of the car I really liked, but how can I trust such a company? Pretty hard to do given this clear undeniable pattern.
I said since I found out about this issue but got told I was full of crap. :D
 

PlaneCrazy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Location
Province of Quebec, Canada
TDI
Gone...
The pipe from the common rail to the injector only has one-way flow and there is no return. I, also, don't see how hypothetical bits of shattered piezo crystal could ever go backwards against the fuel flow in the last part of the pipe from the common-rail to the injector.
I think the reduced failure rate later on has everything to do with reduced rail pressure on the models with solenoid injectors. The forces and stresses on the internal components in the pump is in proportion to the rail pressure, but the relationship between stress and fatigue life is highly non-linear (a small increase in stress beyond a certain threshold dramatically reduces the fatigue life - and conversely, a small reduction in stress can dramatically increase the fatigue life).
Yes but there is a return pipe from the injectors to the fuel tank.
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
Isn't that the rubber hose that goes from injector to injector?
That is part of it. That hose goes through a pressure retention valve and then back to the filter canister. However, it is also joined by a return line from the HPFP and a return line from Fuel Pressure Regulator valve on the end of the fuel rail. In other words, there are several paths for shrapnel from failed parts (be they from the injectors or from the HPFP) to make their way back to the fuel tank. This is the issue addressed by 2micron's "Contain Flow" auxiliary fuel filter.

Have Fun!

Don
 

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT
That is part of it. That hose goes through a pressure retention valve and then back to the filter canister. However, it is also joined by a return line from the HPFP and a return line from Fuel Pressure Regulator valve on the end of the fuel rail. In other words, there are several paths for shrapnel from failed parts (be they from the injectors or from the HPFP) to make their way back to the fuel tank. This is the issue addressed by 2micron's "Contain Flow" auxiliary fuel filter.

Have Fun!

Don
It really amazes me how bad the stock filter design is. I mean, why not just send the excess/unused fuel back to the fuel tank? Or send it back to the "dirty" side of the filter.

*SMH* At least someone knew how to fix it. (THANKS 2MICRON!!!):cool:
 

MRO1791

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2015
Location
Western Washington
TDI
2015 Cruze TD (x2), 2009 Dodge Cummins
Sending some of the return fuel back to the filter keeps it from clogging in the winter, that's the idea anyway.
I believe this is true for the VW design, because it requires no additional parts. My Dodge Cummins Truck has a fuel heater in both filters (second was a OEM provided kit installed later), to deal with winter prevention of fuel filter clogs...

That truck has the CP3 pump, which has re-circ on the low pressure side, back to tank.

There is a rail pressure regulator with return back to Low pressure side (I don't recall if that goes back to tank, or back to LP inlet to fuel pump.. have to look again).

So there are better ways to deal with flow.. but the root cause of the CP4.x pump issue is the cam roller being a poor design, subject to immense forces and accelerated wear, being lubricated by fuel of known low lubricity, and where failure can contaminate the system as designed due to flow paths. 2micron's kit is a simple fix that at least controls the extent of the damage, and ought to be incorporated as a design change/service campaign by VW.. but when pigs fly I guess. VW now has a clear pattern of not doing the right thing, sadly. Even better, they would be wise to just ditch the CP4.x pumps completely and go with the CP3s, most people would pay the extra $600 up front if they knew about this issue and wanted a TDI.. but in there lies the problem, it's not most would be customers that know this, and right now we may never see another US TDI from VW thanks to their emissions cheating.. so it is purely hypothetical discussion at this point.
 
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MRO1791

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2015
Location
Western Washington
TDI
2015 Cruze TD (x2), 2009 Dodge Cummins
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression that while the rail is kept at a constant pressure, the amount of fuel is metered according to load on the engine, and any excess beyond what is needed is returned to the fuel tank.

http://carnbikeexpert.com/new-and-o...ine/common-rail-direct-fuel-injection-engine/

http://www.slideshare.net/amgadradhihadi/common-rail-diesel-fuel-systems

(see slide 6)

That would mean that hypothetically if an injector shatters, bits can find themselves downstream of the injector on the return line to the fuel tank. I have no idea if the filters would be able to trap the injector particles, but perhaps enough abrasive material would get through to score the pump with time.
My truck is common rail, CP3 pump, Bosch system, like the VW.. but no horrible HPFP.. anyhow, the system is basically the same for the most part. The rail pressure is NOT constant. I have a monitor and see it change rapidly in real time.. it ranges from about 5000 psi at idle, to about 30000 psi when working hard and under load. Boost pressure also varies proportionally. I'm sure the pulse width of the injector cycle is also a factor with the ECM to control fuel delivery (keep in mind this does 7 or 8 different injection events PER cylinder, per cycle! This is crazy fast when you think about what is taking place, the 8th cycle is for the emission regeneration event with fuel in exhaust cycle to heat the DPF and NOx catalyst). I would bet most fuel rail pressure drop is handled by normal fuel flow via injectors to the cylinders. The fuel rail regulator valve is also ECM controlled, that sends fuel back to the low pressure side.. not sure how much or how often, but would not expect it to be a large volume in any case, and even then, it is difficult to imagine back flow that would be needed to go from interior of cylinders, into the rail, then out the fuel regulator valve and back to the rest of the fuel system.. this just does not seem to be a viable source of the contamination. The difference in rail operating pressures between the piezo and solenoid injectors seems to be the smoking gun, a higher pressure will put more stress on that crappy cam roller in the HPFP and that is the clear weak link from all the failures now well documented. Now, why then try the higher pressures and push the limits in the first place, one might ask? Easy, the higher pressures provide better fuel atomization and cleaner burn, lower emissions. I would also not be surprised to learn those piezo injectors were also cheaper as well, a clear trend with VW with this HPFP and the emissions cheat.
 

ygk007

Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
2011 Jetta Sportwagon
I am in a similar bad spot

You are in a bad spot, I think it unlikely VW will do more. Unfortunately this is "normal" for VW's standard of customer care. (And is why I no longer own, and will never again own, a VW.) How bad do you need the car? Can you afford to just let it sit while fighting VW? If so I would try local media as a first step. It's cheaper than a lawyer. Is there a TV station with a consumer reporter in your area? Contact them, I bet with all the emissions trouble going on they would love to get a "scoop" on another problem area with VW TDI's. Worth a shot. Good luck.
I have a 2011 TDI that I bought with a rebuilt title in early September last year. In March, the HPFP failed. I had it towed 60+ miles to my local dealer. They told me that the warranty covered it for 10 years/120K miles, gave me a loaner TDI and sent me on my way.

Several days later, they called me and said that VW is not covering it b/c I have a rebuilt title.

I was called out of town to work for most of that time and the car sat at the dealer until last week when I towed it out to a friend's house (he runs a mechanic shop out of his 4 bay outbuilding and lives a mile from another VW dealer).

I was planning on clearing the flakes from the common rail and injectors and driving it into the dealer with him filming it.

If and when VW denies me, I will inform them that my local News station and Attorney's office (Morgan & Morgan the name brand sue them for free lawyer is based in Orlando) and I will assure them that this bad publicity will cost their dealership more than $20K in lost profits.

My problem is with the operable statement. Just because it broke down and wasn't fixed to be operational on June 28, 2016, this should not let VW off of the hook, as any reasonable person is going to repair an investment in a car if they can afford it.

Further, any prudent customer who knows of the pending settlement due to emissions cheating is going to wait on the results of the settlement to see if fixing it with clean emissions parts is even an option and/or to see if they even need to do so to qualify for the settlement, where they might be eligible and might be able to buy one of the previously fixed buyback cars for far less than what VW is supposed to be offering for his vehicle.

This could well balloon up to way over a $20K settlement for them and a heck of a lot of bad publicity... The cost to register and insure a vehicle which is inoperable, the difference in operational cost to drive my GMC 4X4 with an 8.1L engine, etc.

Keep me informed on your situation.
 
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Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG
I have a 2011 TDI that I bought with a rebuilt title in early September last year. In March, the HPFP failed. I had it towed 60+ miles to my local dealer. They told me that the warranty covered it for 10 years/120K miles, gave me a loaner TDI and sent me on my way.

Several days later, they called me and said that VW is not covering it b/c I have a rebuilt title.

I was called out of town to work for most of that time and the car sat at the dealer until last week when I towed it out to a friend's house (he runs a mechanic shop out of his 4 bay outbuilding and lives a mile from another VW dealer).

I was planning on clearing the flakes from the common rail and injectors and driving it into the dealer with him filming it.

If and when VW denies me, I will inform them that my local News station and Attorney's office (Morgan & Morgan the name brand sue them for free lawyer is based in Orlando) and I will assure them that this bad publicity will cost their dealership more than $20K in lost profits.

My problem is with the operable statement. Just because it broke down and wasn't fixed to be operational on June 28, 2016, this should not let VW off of the hook, as any reasonable person is going to repair an investment in a car if they can afford it.

Further, any prudent customer who knows of the pending settlement due to emissions cheating is going to wait on the results of the settlement to see if fixing it with clean emissions parts is even an option and/or to see if they even need to do so to qualify for the settlement, where they might be eligible and might be able to buy one of the previously fixed buyback cars for far less than what VW is supposed to be offering for his vehicle.

This could well balloon up to way over a $20K settlement for them and a heck of a lot of bad publicity... The cost to register and insure a vehicle which is inoperable, the difference in operational cost to drive my GMC 4X4 with an 8.1L engine, etc.

Keep me informed on your situation.
1. IIRC (I don't have my booklet near) that salvage title cars are exempt from joining the class.
2. I'm not sure what VWoA stance on salvaged title cars and the full HPFP replacement was BUT seeing as if they could deny you for not having fuelguard, regardless of if you have gas/contaminated fuel or not, I bet they deny repair for salvage title as well.
 

MRO1791

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2015
Location
Western Washington
TDI
2015 Cruze TD (x2), 2009 Dodge Cummins
1. IIRC (I don't have my booklet near) that salvage title cars are exempt from joining the class.
2. I'm not sure what VWoA stance on salvaged title cars and the full HPFP replacement was BUT seeing as if they could deny you for not having fuelguard, regardless of if you have gas/contaminated fuel or not, I bet they deny repair for salvage title as well.
To summarize, VW will do all it can to avoid being responsible, and the culture has not changed, despite the exposure of the emissions cheat.

The mis-fuel guard was always a cover up for an inferior pump that had no business in the US ULSD fuel market, period. It is a ticking time bomb in these cars, and why I ditched mine (If I had to keep it, I'd be doing that CP3 conversion kit for SURE). I now have two, Chevrolet Cruze Diesels, the second I picked up used, and found in its service history that it had a misfuel. The dealer pumped the tank, cleaned out the fuel system, and all is well. There is NO reason one misfuel should cause such catastrophic failure, and the NHTSA investigation showed that VW miscalculated it's mis-fuel ratio by a factor of TEN. That CP4.1 pump is crap, and VW doesn't want to cover it. On mine they even charged me to look at the system with metal filings in the filter, and then do NOTHING, and tell me it was OK and normal.. NO it is NOT normal, 3 other diesel vehicles, and I've changed the fuel filter in all 3 now, NO METAL, like what was in the VW filter. It's sad they did this, many aspects of the car were great, but it is clear they cut corners to cut cost and drive profit, and it came at the expense of their customers in the end.
 

atc98002

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Location
Auburn WA
TDI
2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium (sold back), 2009 Jetta (sold back), 80 Rabbit diesel (long gone)
Well, a mis-fuel is not a guarantee of a failed pump. My daughter mis-fueled the Jetta once many years ago. Drove it 2 miles and parked. The restarted and drove home about 8 miles. Wouldn't start again. Towed it to the dealer, who drained the system and flushed everything. They took the top off the pump to look, and it was pristine. It's been driven probably 60K+ miles since then with no issues. I'm selling it back, but only because it has other issues (bad A/C, body damage, CEL on) and it's not worth the effort to keep.

Plus, the DSG in the 09 is far worse than the one in my 14 Passat. My wife hates driving the Jetta if she has to back up, because it is so rough. The Passat reverses like a normal auto transmission, without any jerking or other untoward behavior.
 
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ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT
Shoot, the NHTSA found that even with a misfueling the stock cp4.1 still worked just fine after flushing the fuel system of gas.
 

MRO1791

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2015
Location
Western Washington
TDI
2015 Cruze TD (x2), 2009 Dodge Cummins
Shoot, the NHTSA found that even with a misfueling the stock cp4.1 still worked just fine after flushing the fuel system of gas.
So then why does VW claim the failures are due to mis-fuel and require that ridiculous fuel guard? I don't think VW would admit the pump is sensitive to damage with a mis-fuel if is was robust, the basically admit it is easy to damage, and this is one area where I don't think they are lying, but they did overstate damage they claimed as by mis-fuel with analysis of fuel on failed cars, with data that was off by a factor of TEN! That suggests many failures happen WITHOUT a mis-fuel. I'm a Mechanical Engineer, and I looked at the design internals of this pump, it has several weaknesses, the idea of a cam-roller, lubricated by fuel, with the kind of extreme pressures and RPM is testing the metallurgical limits of that roller which rides on that camshaft. That is massive PSI on the small contact between the 2 parts. It was not done because it is better than the prior design that used a crank shaft, and 3 pistons vice one. It was changed because of cost, the cam roller is much simpler to manufacture, and thus much, much cheaper, about HALF the cost, saving $600 per car. Look, they cheated the emissions to save $330 per car, it should not surprise anyone they picked a cheaper pump for similar reasons. Thankfully, there is a fix, not by VW, but 2Mircron up in Canada. If I was going to keep and drive one of these cars, I'd be buying and installing that CP3 kit for sure.

Just because some have had a mis-fuel, and did not have a failure, is not proof the pump is a great design, even VW admits it is sensitive, thus the mis-fuel guard, and the extended warranty. They did not do that for a pump that us just fine as is.. let's not fool ourselves. To be fair, people have had similar problems with the CP4.x pumps on other vehicles by other OEMs, GM and Ford use the CP4.2 pumps, (2 piston version of what VW uses). You can go to their forums and see many complaints about those pumps failing as well, Cummins/Dodge stuck with the more expensive and proven CP3 pump, and that is not by accident.
 
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ericy

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Location
Rehoboth Beach, DE
TDI
2015 Golf TDI (wife's car)
It was not done because it is better than the prior design that used a crank shaft, and 3 pistons vice one. It was changed because of cost, the cam roller is much simpler to manufacture, and thus much, much cheaper, about HALF the cost, saving $600 per car. Look, they cheated the emissions to save $330 per car, it should not surprise anyone they picked a cheaper pump for similar reasons.
Automakers make these kinds of cost saving decisions all of the time. In many cases, things work out fine, but in some cases they push the limits too far, and then you have problems.

Even once the problem has been discovered, it is undoubtably cheaper to replace a few pumps under warranty that it would be to recall all cars with a CP4 and replace with a CP3.

My beef is that they keep playing games and insist that the problem is due to misfueling, when their engineers almost certainly know to be a lie.
 

JHMartin

Member
Joined
May 16, 2013
Location
Peralta, NM
TDI
Proud Owner: 2009 2.0 Jetta
I mis-fuelled mine out of sheer inattention.

The fuel pump were all green and just parked and picked up the nozzle w/o looking. After I FULLY fuelled the car I was amazed at the price ... and as I looked closer I said "AH S____". A $400 mistake that wakes me up a bit at the pump now.
 

jason_

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2014
Location
grand rapids michigan
TDI
2015 s wagon dsg
I mis-fuelled mine out of sheer inattention.

The fuel pump were all green and just parked and picked up the nozzle w/o looking. After I FULLY fuelled the car I was amazed at the price ... and as I looked closer I said "AH S____". A $400 mistake that wakes me up a bit at the pump now.
My buddy did the same thing.
Rolled it away from the pump, luckily he shuts the car off, as I never do when fueling.

Called me, used Ross Tech, took forever, but cycled the pump with the fuel canister disconnected until it ran dry pumping it into my truck, for free! Hooked up the fuel lines. Bought and added a gallon of supertec 2stroke to the tank from the gas station, rolled it back to the correct pump, pumped in the correct fuel, ran Ross again several times to be certain lubed fuel and any residual gasoline was flushed and mixed with diesel/oil.

Done. 190k later no issues still. Mis fuel is only a concern if it's made it to the pump housing. He was lucky twice, it wasn't running and had access to vcds.

Sent from my One using Tapatalk
 
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