NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

[South Coast Guy]

... from what I hear the pump is not designed for US spec fuel it has nothing to do with gasoline fueling prevention (cover up)... They need to do something about this. Some more 2013's and 2014's are going to bite the dust and someone is going to loose it and there will be a lawsuit. This needs to be addressed. 5 yrs of cars with bad fuel pumps?! They can't let this go on any longer. I'm going to print flyers up and start passing them out to everyone with 09-14 models. The mainstream public needs to be aware of the problem. Bad things happen to good people. Wake up the consumers! Who is getting paid to keep this quiet? VW made $28.6 billion profit on $254 billion in revenues in 2012, and its assets were worth $408 billion.

I wonder what the dealer cost is to fix this, the wholesale dealer cost for the parts and what they pay the tech for labor. They don't need to look at profits when fixing these issues, they simply need to look at it from a break even standpoint and keep these cars on the road for 400+k.

I know there have been several discussions but it seems very few tdi's have failed using opti-lube and b5 bio diesel.

What is your source for this?

 

[kjclow]

The only news out of the final report that I was happy to see was the actual (reported) failure numbers and percentage of about 1.6% based on reported sales.

A one mile warning for pump failure to me is not adequate warning. In some cases, it could take that long to reach a safe stopping point. It is ridiculous that we have to wait for blood on the highway before NHTSA will force a recall.

 

[kjclow]

... from what I hear the pump is not designed for US spec fuel it has nothing to do with gasoline fueling prevention

Yes, from some of the early posts citing Bosch internal presentations, the ASTM test for wear scar rating and the US fuel spec was higher than the design of the pump. IIRC, the US fuel spec is 560 and Bosch wants it at 420 (my numbers are probably off), however, testing of pump samples across the US showed that most product sold was at or below the recommended level from Bosch.

 

[Texas_sky]

460 I last read was the bosch spec, more reason for someone to do a diesel fuel test and go around and interview the oil companies to see which one has the most intensive training and requirements for handling the fuel and filtration/refining. If the fuel quality could improve here in the states, I'm guessing we'd see less hpfp incidents. Maybe we could get a "HPFP" tdi certified fuel where they beef up the quality/handling a little. B5 would for sure be required maybe mix a little opti-lube in there.

I don't currently own a CR tdi, but my question is if you get the blinking glow plug light and check engine light/chime and if you were to immediately kill the engine pull over and call triple a for a tow could you save anything from being damaged or is it pretty much a wrap once that happens?

 

[Smokin_Joe]

460 I last read was the bosch spec, more reason for someone to do a diesel fuel test and go around and interview the oil companies to see which one has the most intensive training and requirements for handling the fuel and filtration/refining. If the fuel quality could improve here in the states, I'm guessing we'd see less hpfp incidents. Maybe we could get a "HPFP" tdi certified fuel where they beef up the quality/handling a little. B5 would for sure be required maybe mix a little opti-lube in there.
I don't currently own a CR tdi, but my question is if you get the blinking glow plug light and check engine light/chime and if you were to immediately kill the engine pull over and call triple a for a tow could you save anything from being damaged or is it pretty much a wrap once that happens?

I think if you actually had the forethought to jump on the brakes, pull to the side avoiding possibly 3 lanes of high speed traffic.... shut it off .......right this sounds safe and normal driving....like when you see someone suddenly taking a phone call.....lol
Sorry couldn't resist.
It would depend on what has caused the malfunction. If it is a component failure I would guess it is already too late. If it is bad fuel or gas maybe.
Either way sounds dangerous and would depend on surroundings.
Personally I am not too concerned anymore. . It has happened to us twice and I hope it doesn't happen again. I plan on replacing the lift pump canister rods with stainless from dweisel, install a 2micron containment filter and when the pump goes again replace with a cp3
Life is too short to try and change the world according to VW.
Good Luck

 

[Matt927]

The pump was originally designed to be used with diesel fuel with a wear scar of 460 microns and below to achieve an acceptable service life. It is published in a Bosch document.

I do not know if the coating changes to the internals of the pump essentially made it "acceptable" for US diesel fuel.

 

[Scratchy101]

Examination of the data provided by Volkswagen
determined that the “average contamination of
8.5% gasoline” in the 37 vehicles with the highest
measured gasoline content was a miscalculation
and the actual average for those vehicles was 0.85%.

That does not inspire confidence and clearly shows VWs lack of concern over understanding the true cause of these failures.

Then they go on to say:

No performance problems were observed in 378
miles of test driving a vehicle with 5% gasoline
added to the diesel fuel and Volkswagen has
indicated that operation with small amounts of gasoline
contamination should have no effect on HPFP durability.
No damage to the HPFP’s were observed by Volkswagen after misfuel tests with
either low or high amounts of gasoline misfueling.

This is totally contradictory to what they have been touting as the cause of these HPFP failures.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

Thanks Scratchy

 

[tdiatlast]

The pump was originally designed to be used with diesel fuel with a wear scar of 460 microns and below to achieve an acceptable service life. It is published in a Bosch document.

I do not know if the coating changes to the internals of the pump essentially made it "acceptable" for US diesel fuel.

We keep regurgitating the same info over and over.

Yes, the pump was designed for a wear scar of 460microns. However, the then-current HFRR rating of North America diesel fuel was 520microns (lower number is better, smaller scar in HFRR tests)

Bosch (et al) requested that North America diesel fuel producers improve the lubricity of the diesel fuel, but IIRC, there was no change in fuel lubricity requirements during the early production of VW CR diesels.
The most recent fuel lubricity tests that have been posted here show some improvement of lubricity, but the levels still vary widely, with a few samples showing alarmingly poor lubricity.

 

[Texas_sky]

We keep regurgitating the same info over and over.

Yes, the pump was designed for a wear scar of 460microns. However, the then-current HFRR rating of North America diesel fuel was 520microns (lower number is better, smaller scar in HFRR tests)

Bosch (et al) requested that North America diesel fuel producers improve the lubricity of the diesel fuel, but IIRC, there was no change in fuel lubricity requirements during the early production of VW CR diesels.
The most recent fuel lubricity tests that have been posted here show some improvement of lubricity, but the levels still vary widely, with a few samples showing alarmingly poor lubricity.

Can you post up a link of the lubricity test so we can be informed of fuel venders that are not up to proper spec?

 

[tditom]

Can you post up a link of the lubricity test so we can be informed of fuel venders that are not up to proper spec?

The random samples taken during the Infineum fuel survey does not list the name of the fuel stations.
http://www.infineuminsight.com/expertise/fuels/infineum-worldwide-2014-winter-diesel-fuel-survey

 

[StayPuff]

Can you post up a link of the lubricity test so we can be informed of fuel venders that are not up to proper spec?

Hello everyone.... I don't post often, but read a LOT of the great information on this site. Since this is something I deal with in my career, I thought I would chime in.

I know there are a lot of enviro-conscious people on this site, and I'm not trying to cause a riot or anything, but the real problem with low lubricity in our diesel fuel has nothing to do with vendors and/or transport companies. This all started when the U.S. EPA forced refineries to reduce the sulfur content of LSD (sold up until 2007, if I remember) from 500 parts per million to 15 parts per million, creating what is referred to as ULSD. Sulfur, which is naturally part of crude, acted as a lubricant in the piston cylinders during combustion of the engine, which most people on this site is probably very aware of. However, what some may not be aware of, is that the process needed to eliminate that much sulfur from the fuel, also GREATLY reduces the amount of natural lubricant that diesel fuel used to posses. I clearly remember, that when we began to transport, blend, and sell the new ULSD, it was immediately obvious to us that this new diesel was very dry (not nearly as oily as the diesel of old), and we began to aggressively increase our efforts to add biodiesel into our customer's orders. Although I have mixed feelings about biodiesel (because of it's HIGHLY corrosive nature due to the methanol), it definitely does help in the area of lubricity. And for us, we really haven't found anything, including highly advanced additives, that comes close to providing the level of lubricity that the old diesel used to provide. We create anything between B1 and B30 for customers, with B11 being the most used blend, and so far haven't experienced or heard of any problems from our customers yet.

If it makes anyone feel better, VW isn't the only manufacturer that has experienced major problems due to the aggressive nature of the newer ULSD forced onto us by the EPA.

 

[jason_]

Has vw ever denied anyone of a pump failure? Denied honoring all fuel components to be replaced?

I'm over 200k on the 09, and I'm debating whether to o 2micron kit or gamble if vw will cover everything in case it does let go...

Opinions? $450 and void warranty, or do nothing and hope for warranty? Or go $450, if it does Grenade, remove mods and then call dealer? Heh....

 

[Lightflyer1]

Hello everyone.... I don't post often, but read a LOT of the great information on this site. Since this is something I deal with in my career, I thought I would chime in.

I know there are a lot of enviro-conscious people on this site, and I'm not trying to cause a riot or anything, but the real problem with low lubricity in our diesel fuel has nothing to do with vendors and/or transport companies. This all started when the U.S. EPA forced refineries to reduce the sulfur content of LSD (sold up until 2007, if I remember) from 500 parts per million to 15 parts per million, creating what is referred to as ULSD. Sulfur, which is naturally part of crude, acted as a lubricant in the piston cylinders during combustion of the engine, which most people on this site is probably very aware of. However, what some may not be aware of, is that the process needed to eliminate that much sulfur from the fuel, also GREATLY reduces the amount of natural lubricant that diesel fuel used to posses. I clearly remember, that when we began to transport, blend, and sell the new ULSD, it was immediately obvious to us that this new diesel was very dry (not nearly as oily as the diesel of old), and we began to aggressively increase our efforts to add biodiesel into our customer's orders. Although I have mixed feelings about biodiesel (because of it's HIGHLY corrosive nature due to the methanol), it definitely does help in the area of lubricity. And for us, we really haven't found anything, including highly advanced additives, that comes close to providing the level of lubricity that the old diesel used to provide. We create anything between B1 and B30 for customers, with B11 being the most used blend, and so far haven't experienced or heard of any problems from our customers yet.

If it makes anyone feel better, VW isn't the only manufacturer that has experienced major problems due to the aggressive nature of the newer ULSD forced onto us by the EPA.

Pretty much known at this point. This has been posted many times. Properly made bio though will have no methanol or other corrosives left in it. Small doses of bio have been suggested both here and other sites to enhance lubricity. B11 is probably the most used blend due to the tax incentives in your state.

 

[kjclow]

Has vw ever denied anyone of a pump failure? Denied honoring all fuel components to be replaced?

I'm over 200k on the 09, and I'm debating whether to o 2micron kit or gamble if vw will cover everything in case it does let go...

Opinions? $450 and void warranty, or do nothing and hope for warranty? Or go $450, if it does Grenade, remove mods and then call dealer? Heh....

IIRC, there were a few failures very early on the VWoA did not cover. Since then, even the admitted misfuelings have been covered. That has not been the case in Canada. Again, from memory, there has only been one person who posted that had his system replaced free of charge.

 

[jason_]

IIRC, there were a few failures very early on the VWoA did not cover. Since then, even the admitted misfuelings have been covered. That has not been the case in Canada. Again, from memory, there has only been one person who posted that had his system replaced free of charge.

Honestly that still doesn't help me decide. Still seems flaky.... I guess I don't know like taking chances when it involves my own wallet.

I'm from the states too.

 

[kjclow]

Nothing on here is really going to make the decision for you. You either like the car well enough to buy it and hope you don't get bit, or you buy something else and hope you don't get bit. I knew of this issue when we bought our second CR TDI and we bought it anyway. Nothing else that we had looked at had the same feel, fit, and finish, and still got great mileage.

Remember this is a forum of VW diesel fanatics and some issues can get blown out of proportion. The overall failure rate appears to be around 1%.

 

[DubFamily]

Has vw ever denied anyone of a pump failure? Denied honoring all fuel components to be replaced?

I'm over 200k on the 09, and I'm debating whether to o 2micron kit or gamble if vw will cover everything in case it does let go...

Opinions? $450 and void warranty, or do nothing and hope for warranty? Or go $450, if it does Grenade, remove mods and then call dealer? Heh....

You are over 200,000 miles... I think you can honestly say the effective service life has been met regardless; so expecting a warranty on the part by now is a bit foolish.

Have you ever heard of any other car company warranting a 200,000 mile car?

Get the 2 Micron kit if you are worried about it and keep on driving...

 

[kjclow]

You are over 200,000 miles...

I missed that part when I first read his post. At that point, I would be thinking of replacing the pump with the next timing belt service. The pump is a wear item that should probably be added to a service interval.

 

[jason_]

Guess I'll order the catch can and replumb kit, when it pops change a filter and install a new pump.

Although I see no pumps on idparts.com. Dealer?

 

[DubFamily]

I missed that part when I first read his post. At that point, I would be thinking of replacing the pump with the next timing belt service. The pump is a wear item that should probably be added to a service interval.

Theoretically this would sound like a smart move; however, since the pump failures have no correlation at all to mileage or service time you are just as likely to put a pump on your car that will grenade in 10,000 miles as you are to replace a "worn" one and keep going another 200k...

You are better off isolating it and replacing it if it goes...

Guess I'll order the catch can and replumb kit, when it pops change a filter and install a new pump.

Although I see no pumps on idparts.com. Dealer?

ID parts can probably get it; just hasn't been a high demand on them I'm sure (since most were warrantied).

 

[jason_]

Theoretically this would sound like a smart move; however, since the pump failures have no correlation at all to mileage or service time you are just as likely to put a pump on your car that will grenade in 10,000 miles as you are to replace a "worn" one and keep going another 200k...

You are better off isolating it and replacing it if it goes...



ID parts can probably get it; just hasn't been a high demand on them I'm sure (since most were warrantied).

Exactly what I was thinking. Let it pump until no more, in the meantime tease it with an ounce of lubricity on every fill. No reason to replace it if it still pumps.

 

[Marc_TDI]

Nothing on here is really going to make the decision for you. You either like the car well enough to buy it and hope you don't get bit, or you buy something else and hope you don't get bit. I knew of this issue when we bought our second CR TDI and we bought it anyway. Nothing else that we had looked at had the same feel, fit, and finish, and still got great mileage.

Remember this is a forum of VW diesel fanatics and some issues can get blown out of proportion. The overall failure rate appears to be around 1%.

This Forum is a microcosm of TDI enthusiasts/owners/lovers, etc. lots of great folks, info, entertainment and knowledge. It's a great place.

The HPFP issue amounts to 2%.....I'll say it again 2%.
That comprises the multitude of new buyers, inept Dealerships Staff (misfueling) and manufacturing failures that have contributed to the HPFP failure issue with our beloved CR TDI's.

There are loads of Chicken Little's, Nervous Nellie's and other Doom-Sayers here telling folks to bail now or it's a ticking time bomb.

I'll be keeping mine, plenty are lasting to high mileage without problems.
If it bothers someone that much...sell it...trade it...push it off a cliff and go get a Prius, Leaf, Cruz or gasser.

The turbo on the CR concerns me...maybe I'll dodge that bullet...that's a risk
but I'm good with it. I use a fuel additive, monitor the inter-cooler pipe and other stuff that might be an issue....so far so good.

MOST passenger cars have re-calls, manufacturing defects and little issues that make them less that perfect...it's a fact.

So deal with it......or take the bus, taxi or ride a mountain goat to work.
But then I suppose it's easier to kick a dead horse that try and ride it.

 

[StayPuff]

.....or ride a mountain goat to work.

Yeah, I looked into one of those, but couldn't find one in Platinum Gray......or with Bluetooth

 

[DubFamily]

I've seen Bluetooth enabled models, but they only came with leatherette, so I passed...

 

[StayPuff]

Pretty much known at this point. This has been posted many times. Properly made bio though will have no methanol or other corrosives left in it. Small doses of bio have been suggested both here and other sites to enhance lubricity. B11 is probably the most used blend due to the tax incentives in your state.

Sorry about the delay.... Just now seen this

Yes, that is correct for sure. There is no "residual methanol" left, and I should have been more clear. I was referring to the methyl esters that break down and create hydrogen sulfide.....which is extremely corrosive. It's there because of the methanol used to replace the glycerin. According to a lab tech I spoke to several years ago, ethanol can be used too, but contains more water and increases the overall cloud point of the finished product....if I remember his words correctly. But I can tell you without a doubt, bio eats up our hoses and gaskets like crazy, and no biocide can stop it...we tried it the first few years, and stopped because it was a waste of money. I have pictures of how biodiesel corrodes our equipment that I can post over in the biofuels section, if any of you want to see it.

About the 11% and tax credit. Right again! The 11% is the 'happy medium', I guess you could say, for tax credits and blend strength of the bio. And believe me...If it weren't for the tax credits (read: subsidies), biodiesel would have been dropped like a hot potato years ago. The wholesale price of commercial bio is hovering around $2.95/gallon right now, BUT just a couple years ago it was around $5/gallon. Just depends on the commodity prices of beans and such....as everyone knows.

 

[kjclow]

A biocide won't do any thing because your issue are not caused by bacteria. For the corrosion, you would need to add an anti corrosive additive like sodium nitrite or ammonium benzoate. I have no idea what they would do to the engine though. As for the hoses and gaskets, to stop issues there, you would need to replace all the natural rubber with synthetic. Not sure which type of synthetic would be needed but it's fairly easy to test. Just put a small piece of the hose into a sample of the biodiesel and monitor for changes.

 

[StayPuff]

Thanks kjclow.... We tried the biocide because the corrosion is caused by microbes creating hydrogen sulfide. I found this article that can explain it much better than I can. http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/en...sion-could-cause-leaks-in-fuel-infrastructure

As for the hoses and gaskets, we don't use natural rubber on anything. That wouldn't last a WEEK with biodiesel, LOL! We use synthetic nitrile gaskets and hoses, and I've even seen it eat Viton parts over a 2 to 3 year period....depending on how much contact, pressure, and use it gets. We have to replace transfer hoses and gaskets about once a year. With regular diesel or gasoline, the hoses last years until they wear out from the external environment.

The hoses used for bio, disintegrates from the inside out....creating what we call "The Black Goo". Again, I can show pictures of it if anyone is interested. If anyone here has used B100, or a high percentage of bio made with methanol in their vehicles for a long period of time (2-4 years or more), I have no doubt you've experienced "The Black Goo" That's your parts being disintegrated.

The biodiesel we buy, comes from a large national company that (I think) produces most, or close to most, of the nation's biodiesel used in the U.S. So....this isn't 'Mom & Pop' Bio I'm talking about either. It's the Big League stuff.

This is actually a problem that is very well known within the fuel industry, but I really don't think most of the public is very aware of it. The link I posted above is around 5 years old, and nothing has changed. And it doesn't just eat the hoses and gaskets either. It strips paint, eats brass and bronze gate valves, and if any ferrous metal is in contact with it and doesn't get washed off, it will corrode it.

About 10 years ago, we purchased our first TDI....a 2005.5 Jetta. We were having the dealership do all of the PMs until the warranty expired (will NEVER do that again), and during one of the scheduled fuel filter changes, the tech installed the wrong gasket on the housing cap...a black round O-ring instead of the green double O-ring type gasket. Needless to say, when my wife came home with the car she complained of diesel smell. It was pretty easy to figure out why, as diesel was pouring out of the front and rear side of the skid plate. We were using B-11 at the time (from my own 600 gallon gravity tank that I used to blend my own fuel from work). I knew about the corrosive properties of Bio then, and I chewed out the dealership's manager loudly, and aggressively inside the shop so that everyone could hear...and explained to them why a thorough washing of the engine compartment was needed. Of course, I think they thought I was bonkers, as they had no idea what the hell I was talking about. LOL! They washed everything though, and did a good job. I Did have a few rust spots start to show on the fuel filter bracket, but took care of it as it appeared.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Who is the bio mfg you are referring to? The bio spec for methanol content is .2% max by volume according to EN14110. The study you quoted also used sea water in the testing they did. Not very relevant to most using bio really. Do you really think B11 ate the oring in the time it took your wife to get home from the dealer service? That seems unlikely to happen to me. Hydrogen sulfide occurs naturally in crude (sour) oil and is also created in some processing of the oil as well. Sounds like there was/is a greater chance your diesel was contaminated rather than the bio.

 

[StayPuff]

Hello Lightflyer!!

Who is the bio mfg you are referring to?

Cargill

The bio spec for methanol content is .2% max by volume according to EN14110.

The residual methanol (if any) isn't the problem. It's the microbes eating the methyl esters (we think). The reason we tried the biocide years ago.

The study you quoted also used sea water in the testing they did. Not very relevant to most using bio really.

That was just one example. The author was only telling us that seawater speeds up the degradation. But seawater isn't needed.

Do you really think B11 ate the oring in the time it took your wife to get home from the dealer service? That seems unlikely to happen to me. Hydrogen sulfide occurs naturally in crude (sour) oil and is also created in some processing of the oil as well. Sounds like there was/is a greater chance your diesel was contaminated rather than the bio.

The dealership tech installed the wrong O-ring, causing fuel to spray and pour out of the filter housing. Had nothing to do with the diesel. I just wanted the engine compartment completely cleaned, to protect the paint inside the engine compartment, and prevent rusting.

I think this discussion has hijacked this thread long enough.... LOL!!

I'm going to create a new thread over in the alternative fuels section of the forum. I will come back and edit this post to include a link to it, for anyone that might want to talk further about it. What I am bringing to you guys is nothing new to our industry....but it might be new to some of you. Would be nice discuss this further for sure! I will also post pictures and a copy of Cargill's C of A on the bio.

EDIT: For further discussion, please join in at the new and appropriate location for this topic....located here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=439207