NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

[Smokin_Joe]

Read here:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=433465

The standard isn't the same as the fuel quality actually being sold.

Thx
I will look that over

 

[Smokin_Joe]

All kidding aside

I am starting to think we may need to factor Stanadyne by the case for this fragile little creature.
That and lots of tlc.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

That's been a known issue for quite some time now. Happened to me once. Picked up a front grill block off from idparts last year and never had the problem again.

Hi ATR
Your filtration thread concerning the 2Micron protective setup also showed a kit to deal with this issue.
All good info.
Reminded me of a tow hook..lol.. or an air tank drain
(I wouldn't want anything, sticking out, for the wife to bang into or me for that matter)
Thx
I asked JS Performance to research the 2micron kit for me

 

[Smokin_Joe]

Come Dec 2017, when extended warranty runs out, and the car hasn't had another meltdown that we have had to deal with we would possibly...
Take the vehicle to JS Performance in Abbotsford and take a look at the lift pump in the tank.
If the rods aren't rusted:
1 Test metal for properties and if stainless or rust inhibiting reinstall and move to step 3.
2 If steel is found to be unsatisfactory replace with stainless steel kit I got from Dweisel then move to step 3

3 Install 2Micron protective kit

If rusted rods are found:
Buy new pump and install stainless kit then go to step 3.

 

[Brad95]

Now I received this message, along time ago, from my contact at the DOT.
When I followed his instructions and went there just now I find it lists 160 complaints and then it goes on to show that 120 or so were confirmed misfuelings???
This investigation, does it evolve, can we see the new complaint numbers.
Just curious...
The figures seem much smaller than I would have imagined.



[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Go to this website…
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues

Search for Engineering Analysis: EA11003

Regards,
Paul


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Paul Tiessen[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Motor Vehicle Defect Investigator[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Transport Canada, Motor Vehicle Safety Directorate[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Motor Vehicle Safety Investigations Laboratory[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]80 Noel Street, Gatineau, QC J8Z 0A1 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]tel.819.994.3168[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]paul.tiessen@tc.gc.ca[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Government of Canada[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Very good info! thanks for sharing!, VW response to NHTSA pdf file.
thanks

 

[nate0031]

The intercooler icing and HPFP are the only big issues I've heard of on the common rails. The Passats have had some turbo issues, but Jettas and Golfs have a different turbo.

There has been a HPFP failure on a car equipped with 2micron's kit, and the pump was the only thing that needed replaced. It was changed and they motored on.

Intercooler icing isn't an issue with my swap, and I installed the pureflow and (my version) of the containflow kit, so I'm not worried. If the HPFP does go, it'll be contained. I'll just try and get the CP3 kit and never worry about it again.

 

[atc98002]

Joe, I wonder if your fuel in BC generally comes from the same refineries we get ours from here in western WA. If that's the case, you likely have fuel that is overall reliable. While there certainly has been some HPFP failures here, the total count is quite low.

My daughter accidentally mis-fueled their '09 Jetta, and even drove it for about 10 miles before it would no longer start. I had it towed to the dealer, who drained and flushed the tank, and it's been going fine for almost three years since. The mechanic pulled the head off the HPFP and found no metal, so their opinion was no damage occurred. Since it's been so long, it appears that was an accurate diagnosis.

It does seem that the areas that have had a BioDiesel requirement in their fuel for quite a while (like WA has) haven't had the failures as often as others. I have nothing to back this up, simply my observation over the years, along with our one personal experience.

I bought my Passat last fall knowing full well the contents of this thread. I still chose the TDI over the gas engine, and based on my time with a loaner a could of weeks ago I feel I made the right choice. As nice as the new 1.8T is, it can't hold a candle to the TDI driving experience.

 

[DubFamily]

Thank you
I know statistically that isn't many based on total volume but looking at it realistically...659 lives were affected negatively in 2011 because they drove a TDI and 1784 were affected negatively in 2012 because they drove a TDI.

Compare that to the number of cars sold in those years and you see how small that number actually is. It's like saying we need to fire every scientist in the world because 2 people died from Mad Cow disease...

There are just as many, if not more, failures in other car models that cause issues and have not been recalled or even covered by the manufacturer. VW is still repairing these failures even on vehicles past warranty; so they have stepped up...

I am starting to think we may need to factor Stanadyne by the case for this fragile little creature.
That and lots of tlc.

They aren't very fragile; and your Canadian fuel generally meets or exceeds a higher standard than US fuel does. Drive more, worry less...

 

[wait4TDIPD]

1.8TSI vs. 2.0 TDI

....

.....I bought my Passat last fall knowing full well the contents of this thread. I still chose the TDI over the gas engine, and based on my time with a loaner a could of weeks ago I feel I made the right choice. As nice as the new 1.8T is, it can't hold a candle to the TDI driving experience.

question: what transmission did you have on the gasser?
I read many good comments on that new smaller 1.8TSI engine.
If it was a 6-auto "slushbox" it's harder to judge the difference.
I have yet to test drive one of the new 1.8s with a MANUAL to see how the improved torque feels on that engine vs. the TDI.
One of the reasons of being "on the fence" is the 'tune-ability' of the 1.8gasser - I would not dare to chip the diesel.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

I am starting to think we may need to factor Stanadyne by the case for this fragile little creature.
That and lots of tlc.

When my HPFP was replaced I asked the service writer to recommend an additive, which he did. He then left the employ of the dealer.

When the problem wasn't resolved (loss of power at WOT), and I took the car back, they saw the bottle of additive in the trunk and raised hell that I shouldn't be using an additive. I told them it was their employee that suggested it to improve lubricity (I forget which additive it was; it was quite concentrated). They said stop using it. I stopped. No change.

The level of technical know-how at the dealership continues to impress... by its absence.

 

[Matt927]

Nothing in the diesel fuel section of the manual that prohibits additives.

 

[atc98002]

question: what transmission did you have on the gasser?
I read many good comments on that new smaller 1.8TSI engine.
If it was a 6-auto "slushbox" it's harder to judge the difference.
I have yet to test drive one of the new 1.8s with a MANUAL to see how the improved torque feels on that engine vs. the TDI.
One of the reasons of being "on the fence" is the 'tune-ability' of the 1.8gasser - I would not dare to chip the diesel.

It was the auto. I didn't feel the 1.8 was lacking, but it didn't have the diesel pull. Of course, the TDI has more torque. But i still far preferred the overall feel of the diesel. Fuel economy was outstanding, within 10-15% of my diesel. just wasn't as much fun to drive.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

My discoveries so far....CP3...Awesome

The intercooler icing and HPFP are the only big issues I've heard of on the common rails. The Passats have had some turbo issues, but Jettas and Golfs have a different turbo.

There has been a HPFP failure on a car equipped with 2micron's kit, and the pump was the only thing that needed replaced. It was changed and they motored on.

Intercooler icing isn't an issue with my swap, and I installed the pureflow and (my version) of the containflow kit, so I'm not worried. If the HPFP does go, it'll be contained. I'll just try and get the CP3 kit and never worry about it again.

Thanks Nate
Just heard about the CP3 kit....
I stumbled upon some info I am trying to digest and finish
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=347581

Got side tracked over to this looking for info...
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=284441&page=12

Tripped over this looking for more understanding...brrr this one is scary lookin..lol
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=284441

Haven't finished any of them.....and...

What a poor design...in lots of peoples opinion....but I need to finish checkin this stuff out.

And thank you for the test results on the 2micron kit.

Nothing in the diesel fuel section of the manual that prohibits additives.

I think it actually recommends it.
I will check the Tdi's manual tonight.

Compare that to the number of cars sold in those years and you see how small that number actually is. It's like saying we need to fire every scientist in the world because 2 people died from Mad Cow disease...

There are just as many, if not more, failures in other car models that cause issues and have not been recalled or even covered by the manufacturer. VW is still repairing these failures even on vehicles past warranty; so they have stepped up...



They aren't very fragile; and your Canadian fuel generally meets or exceeds a higher standard than US fuel does. Drive more, worry less...

Okay
Don't want to BASH you or make you feel bad.
You aren't wrong!
From the prospective of business or government which is tied up in so much legal speak and excuses.
You are right!
They are trying to help the majority, of people benefit.
But!
Speaking as a person, a Canadian and a friend of the Americans who aren't afraid to speak their mind and scream about their rights....(just don't do it electronically... lol), one who is trying to survive and not make other peoples lives suffer so that we can enjoy life.

I am fragile and easily destroyed by the whim of big business and government.
The photos of the CP4, the internals, they really do look fragile and when you combine it with the lift pump in the tank which has a tendency to rust
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=410742
and combine that with the underhood return mumbo jumbo that VW has done with the filtration system, eliminating the drain on the water separator???
(Yes Virginia the 2011 fuel filter is designed to separate water)
All this has created a fragile combo!

Thx Everyone

 

[ATR]

question: what transmission did you have on the gasser?
I read many good comments on that new smaller 1.8TSI engine.
If it was a 6-auto "slushbox" it's harder to judge the difference.
I have yet to test drive one of the new 1.8s with a MANUAL to see how the improved torque feels on that engine vs. the TDI.
One of the reasons of being "on the fence" is the 'tune-ability' of the 1.8gasser - I would not dare to chip the diesel.

I had a mkvi jetta with a 1.8t & automatic transmission For a work trip out in California. Even drove down the Pacific Coast highway in it. While it did lack the low down umph of a turbo diesel it did have more than enough go power for most situations.

I wouldn't trade my TDI for it though

 

[Smokin_Joe]

.....
The level of technical know-how at the dealership continues to impress... by its absence.

Volkswagen doesn't have a monopoly on that.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

Joe, I wonder if your fuel in BC generally comes from the same refineries we get ours from here in western WA. If that's the case, you likely have fuel that is overall reliable. While there certainly has been some HPFP failures here, the total count is quite low.

My daughter accidentally mis-fueled their '09 Jetta, and even drove it for about 10 miles before it would no longer start. I had it towed to the dealer, who drained and flushed the tank, and it's been going fine for almost three years since. The mechanic pulled the head off the HPFP and found no metal, so their opinion was no damage occurred. Since it's been so long, it appears that was an accurate diagnosis.

It does seem that the areas that have had a BioDiesel requirement in their fuel for quite a while (like WA has) haven't had the failures as often as others. I have nothing to back this up, simply my observation over the years, along with our one personal experience.

I bought my Passat last fall knowing full well the contents of this thread. I still chose the TDI over the gas engine, and based on my time with a loaner a could of weeks ago I feel I made the right choice. As nice as the new 1.8T is, it can't hold a candle to the TDI driving experience.

That would have been scary.
I know I have suddenly looked down after doing what is routine and suddenly realizing I can't remember if I actually checked what I was doing.
You get something else going on, cell phone, that movie you watched yesterday, that nice looking girl or truck over there....lol...I'm a guy.
Something else going on in your head and boom life changing event.

Equipment designed to work in a lab under pristine conditions can be quite fragile in the day to day environment, mix that with humans and we get problems.
Drive Safe
Be happy
Glad you got lucky.

PS...I didn't see that many tankers crossing the border, when I was doing it, and I don't think we share the same refineries sources, that I know of.
(Opinion..Total ignorance on sources of fuel, I could be sooo wrong!)

Fuel is handled in bulk and like the failures being less than a certain % they look at the impurities the same way. Problem is a minute percentage of impurity gets to combine with a whole bunch of minute impurities and gets stirred up every time the tanker drops a load in the tank. Minute quantities of gas can contaminate large quantities of diesel, add to that the setiment and other particulates that accumulate and settle in the tank.
People say they only buy from high volume suppliers. That isn't going to protect you from the sediment that can accumulate, higher volume also means more fuel is being dumped more often stirring up more sediment.
I buy, and recommend buying, from large store front companies (National brands.. Company owned or look company owned. National card lock companies) that are chains and reputable. Ones that really change the filters on their pumps, replace their in ground tanks on a schedule and are constantly monitoring the quality, of their product.
Or at least I hope they are...
That is why we all should run separators and filters to look after our personal fuel supply.
Thx

 

[turbovan+tdi]

Compare that to the number of cars sold in those years and you see how small that number actually is. It's like saying we need to fire every scientist in the world because 2 people died from Mad Cow disease...

There are just as many, if not more, failures in other car models that cause issues and have not been recalled or even covered by the manufacturer. VW is still repairing these failures even on vehicles past warranty; so they have stepped up...



They aren't very fragile; and your Canadian fuel generally meets or exceeds a higher standard than US fuel does. Drive more, worry less...

Completely disagree. The number is probably a lot higher, but we'll never know the exact number plus the fact when it fails, it takes everything with it, ***?. The failure is unnacceptable, and it leaves a when will it happen to me feeling which is bs for a new car. Yes, cars have issues but this one WILL leave you stranded and its not a question of if, but when. If I owned one, taking a trip with kids would be a nerve racking experience. VW dropped the ball on this one big time.

 

[atc98002]

Joe,

With the refineries in Bellingham, it's possible they use gas lines rather than tankers if the ship cross border. I personally have no idea either.

 

[atc98002]

...Yes, cars have issues but this one WILL leave you stranded and its not a question of if, but when..

I have to disagree with this. I don't believe every single car will experience a HPFP failure, and that is what you are stating. Even if the total failures is double the reported number, it's still a tiny fraction of the total cars built. Yes, it's terrible to the person that it happens to, but don't claim it will happen to everyone.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

Joe,

With the refineries in Bellingham, it's possible they use gas lines rather than tankers if the ship cross border. I personally have no idea either.

Ditto

 

[Smokin_Joe]

Nothing in the diesel fuel section of the manual that prohibits additives.

Just checked and this is true. The gasoline section talks about additives and say they are used to improve quality. It says to only use Volkswagen approved additives.
The diesel section makes NO mention of additives approved or not.
No mention!

 

[Smokin_Joe]

I have to disagree with this. I don't believe every single car will experience a HPFP failure, and that is what you are stating. Even if the total failures is double the reported number, it's still a tiny fraction of the total cars built. Yes, it's terrible to the person that it happens to, but don't claim it will happen to everyone.

Everyone can disagree.
He said ..."and it leaves a when will it happen to me feeling which is bs for a new car. "
and this Feeling is carried forward when he says
"Yes, cars have issues but this one WILL leave you stranded and its not a question of if, but when. If I owned one, taking a trip with kids would be a nerve racking experience. VW dropped the ball on this one big time."

He isn't saying each and every car, he is saying it is like having a little cloud of doom over your head that could strike at any minute. The new car is supposed to give you that sunny feeling even when it is raining.
Give it another read and see if you understand how I interpret it.
I remember sitting in my Dodge when I come back to it after it has been sitting in the sun and just basking in the smell of warm leather.
Beautiful.
Our little Volks used to make us feel that way, right up till the time the dealer accused us of miss fueling and all that went with it and discovering the HPFP failures, that occured for no logical reason, random as uell.
Our feelings and confidence has been destroyed.
So disagree all you want he is talking about the feelings that we should have from buying a new car.
Safe secure, you know that sunny day thing I was talking about.
To have that taken away from you is bs.

 

[atc98002]

I can completely understand the feeling. It's just he made it as a statement of fact. Perhaps I'm just reading it too literally, but again, that's just my feeling.

I can understand your feelings, based on the treatment received at your dealer. For me, I have a great relationship with my dealer, and perhaps changes my perception on the issue. I don't drive my car feeling it's going to fail on me. In fact, if I had to head cross country tomorrow, I wouldn't think twice.

There seems to be a significant difference between the way VWoA and VWCanada are handling the issue. I just shake my head when I read the way they have been treating so many of you, and that's a shame. You'd think the two would be more in sync.

 

[Scratcher]

Yes, cars have issues but this one WILL leave you stranded and its not a question of if, but when.

That's a pretty broad sweeping statement. There are CR TDI'S with upwards of 200k without pump failures. There's some at 400k! Of course it is true if you keep a car for it's life something will fail. From the amount of cars sold the ratio of HPFP to cars running well into 100k plus miles with no failure is pretty low.

 

[DubFamily]

Okay
Don't want to BASH you or make you feel bad.
You aren't wrong!
From the prospective of business or government which is tied up in so much legal speak and excuses.
You are right!
They are trying to help the majority, of people benefit.
But!
Speaking as a person, a Canadian and a friend of the Americans who aren't afraid to speak their mind and scream about their rights....(just don't do it electronically... lol), one who is trying to survive and not make other peoples lives suffer so that we can enjoy life.

I am fragile and easily destroyed by the whim of big business and government.
The photos of the CP4, the internals, they really do look fragile and when you combine it with the lift pump in the tank which has a tendency to rust
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=410742
and combine that with the underhood return mumbo jumbo that VW has done with the filtration system, eliminating the drain on the water separator???
(Yes Virginia the 2011 fuel filter is designed to separate water)
All this has created a fragile combo!

Thx Everyone

(all of the above are my opinions and experiences)

OK, I will try to make this polite, please don't take it as something other than that, as it is hard to say this without sounding like I am attacking you (I am not...) BUT

You are reading a car forum; where the absolute worst of any model gets discussed ad nauseum (and this particular forum is worse than most for the chicken little mentality; to which you seem more than willing to contribute ) and taking every single point as gospel.

Stop.

No, seriously; stop.

Take a step back; take a couple deep breaths, and start over.

There are tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of CR TDIs driving all over the United States and Canada that have never experienced any of these horrible failures. Seriously. One guy here uses his car as a taxi, and has something like 250,000 or more on it. I drive 40,000 miles a year and haven't had any rusting, exploded pumps, destroyed engines from water, or any other world-shattering issue in ~110,000 miles to date.

People come to car forums to find out about problems they may be experiencing, or to complain about problems they have. You will automatically paint the worst picture possible of any car maker by visiting the forums surrounding their cars. That is not the normal operation of the vehicle for 95% to 99% of the owners...

My point is this: Yes, these cars have some issues. No they are not remotely as bad as this forum makes them appear. Is it bad if it happens to you? Sure is, I would hate it as I am sure everyone it has happened to has hated it. But at, realistically, less than 1% of the total CR TDIs sold to date I am willing to take my chances...

Completely disagree. The number is probably a lot higher, but we'll never know the exact number plus the fact when it fails, it takes everything with it, ***?. The failure is unnacceptable, and it leaves a when will it happen to me feeling which is bs for a new car. Yes, cars have issues but this one WILL leave you stranded and its not a question of if, but when. If I owned one, taking a trip with kids would be a nerve racking experience. VW dropped the ball on this one big time.

Your opinion is noted; and I completely disagree with just about everything you said.

No, the number is not "probably a lot higher;" it is probably a lot lower once you factor in unreported misfuels.

Yeah, it's a bad failure; but it's a man-made, mechanical device. THEY FAIL, sorry. IF you feel as if your car is going to explode, sell it and get a horse. All cars have problems; all of them. This one isn't even the worst one out there... How about your Ford bursting into flame from the cruise control module? Or maybe you'd prefer controlling your runaway Toyota/Lexus when the throttle sticks and you can't turn it off?

1-3%% failure rate is not even newsworthy, sorry to say.

No, it is not a question of when; it is barely even a question of if. Again, if you are that afraid of your car sell it.

I've driven mine all over the eastern seaboard from Maine to Florida without a second thought. Never stranded me, never caused me anything beyond savings with my 45-50mpg highway mileage...

Everyone can disagree.
"Yes, cars have issues but this one WILL leave you stranded and its not a question of if, but when.
He isn't saying each and every car, he is saying it is like having a little cloud of doom over your head that could strike at any minute.

Actually, that is exactly what he said: He said every one of them will fail; which is complete crap. That's what "this one WILL leave you stranded and its not a question of if, but when"means; literally...

Once again; drive more, worry less. If you are spending so much time trying to find problems with your car that you don't enjoy your car, then you are doing it wrong.

 

[carnotgas]

I agree

I had a 2002 TDI with an automatic transmission. Because of this forum I was convinced that my transmission was about fail. So I sold the car with 98000 miles on it. I recently met the person I sold it too and she now has over 250000 miles on it and the transmission is still fine. I almost traded in my 09 CR because of what I read on this forum about the fuel pump. I have 95000 miles on it now and it is the most reliable car I have ever owned. It's best to stay away from this forum unless you have a problem that you need more information on. But, I am addicted to this forum and I can't stop!

 

[ATR]

.......It's best to stay away from this forum unless you have a problem that you need more information on. But, I am addicted to this forum and I can't stop!

ha! Yes... welcome to the club!

I stop by this place several times a day

 

[Smokin_Joe]

......
Actually, that is exactly what he said: He said every one of them will fail; which is complete crap. That's what "this one WILL leave you stranded and its not a question of if, but when"means; literally...

Once again; drive more, worry less. If you are spending so much time trying to find problems with your car that you don't enjoy your car, then you are doing it wrong.

No offence taken...
So please read the following and maybe you will see the reason for the different feelings on the same subject

I can completely understand the feeling. It's just he made it as a statement of fact. Perhaps I'm just reading it too literally, but again, that's just my feeling.

I can understand your feelings, based on the treatment received at your dealer. For me, I have a great relationship with my dealer, and perhaps changes my perception on the issue. I don't drive my car feeling it's going to fail on me. In fact, if I had to head cross country tomorrow, I wouldn't think twice.

There seems to be a significant difference between the way VWoA and VWCanada are handling the issue. I just shake my head when I read the way they have been treating so many of you, and that's a shame. You'd think the two would be more in sync.

I agree
Good Answer
Probably the best one out there

 

[Smokin_Joe]

I had a 2002 TDI with an automatic transmission. Because of this forum I was convinced that my transmission was about fail. So I sold the car with 98000 miles on it. I recently met the person I sold it too and she now has over 250000 miles on it and the transmission is still fine. I almost traded in my 09 CR because of what I read on this forum about the fuel pump. I have 95000 miles on it now and it is the most reliable car I have ever owned. It's best to stay away from this forum unless you have a problem that you need more information on. But, I am addicted to this forum and I can't stop!

We almost sold our car after it crapped out the first time...Luckily VWoC stepped up when it let go a few months later, no fight just shock and awe as to everything that was gutted and replaced
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=410742
When our car was in the shop the second time for the same problem and only a few months later than the first one, we were test driving competitors cars and didn't like the competitors.
Cruze diesel good torque for slowing down on a hill but the dash was weird lookin
Volt didn't have the highway top end
And the general look and fit of the cars really didn't compare to our little vw.

But we are very concerned as to how long it will last

ha! Yes... welcome to the club!

I stop by this place several times a day

Hi my name is Joe and I too am addicted...lol

Oh
Side note
2Micron is developing a fix for that little cloud of doom I was talking about.
The baby cp3 similar to the Cummins and Duramax diesels.
I think he said they are available all over Europe ...
Running in his car since Oct 26000Kms.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=4764074#post4764074

 

[chucky2]

I think the point being made is that with the type of stranding that will go on, and the expense of the fix, anyone buying one of these is taking a pretty large risk. It'd be akin to a gas engined vehicle having a fuel issue that will junk the engine and transmission. What happens if VW stops with their CYA on the out of warranty failures? Someone is going to take their 2011 VW TDI with 150k, experience a failure, and then spend multiple thousands of dollars to fix it? At least in the gas engine + trans analogy, you'd have a new engine and trans. What you get with this VW failure is dropping that coin on nothing that will improve the drivability of the vehicle (other than having it actually work) and for all that expense, here's your payoff: The same thing could happen tomorrow (or a month or two after your new parts/labor warranty runs out).

If you can afford to take that chance, then these are great solutions. If you can't, then they're no solution at all (at least post warranty).

Chuck