NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

[Smokin_Joe]

Updates?

Now I received this message, along time ago, from my contact at the DOT.
When I followed his instructions and went there just now I find it lists 160 complaints and then it goes on to show that 120 or so were confirmed misfuelings???
This investigation, does it evolve, can we see the new complaint numbers.
Just curious...
The figures seem much smaller than I would have imagined.



[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Go to this website…
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues

Search for Engineering Analysis: EA11003

Regards,
Paul


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Paul Tiessen[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Motor Vehicle Defect Investigator[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Transport Canada, Motor Vehicle Safety Directorate[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Motor Vehicle Safety Investigations Laboratory[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]80 Noel Street, Gatineau, QC J8Z 0A1 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]tel.819.994.3168[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]paul.tiessen@tc.gc.ca[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Government of Canada[/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[kjclow]

It's stagnant. Has been any change in the postings since it went to the investigation stage.

 

[eb2143]

Unless you read something I didn't I can't agree with the above statement.
It said lots of things in the lead up. Removed fuel and replaced fuel tested fuel. Started up for the service technician and to "Stay Tuned"
Hasn't actually said what the problem is as far as I can see.
I don't believe the entire fuel system was replaced cause it didn't say what was done...yet.
http://www.edmunds.com/ram/1500/2014/long-term-road-test/
http://www.edmunds.com/ram/1500/201...1500-ecodiesel-abrupt-stall-while-moving.html

Give me a break smoky joe. I'm reading the same thing you've posted. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like one...

Findings: low rail pressure DTCs, low fuel flow rate, and at least some metallic particles in fuel system.

I said: Fuel was grossly okay. Edmunds said:

They ruled out the possibility of contaminants in the tank or the fuel after they drained and inspected the tank.

I said: They replaced the entire fuel system under warranty. Edmunds said:

So they decided to remove and inspect the entire fuel system...The inspection — more of a dissection, really — would occur in Detroit, so they ordered a laundry list of new replacement parts for our truck, all under warranty

Sure, we don't know the minutia of what happened. But that's why I said, "after what appears.."

 

[Smokin_Joe]

A Break ...Sure I am up for that

Give me a break smoky joe. I'm reading the same thing you've posted. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like one...

Findings: low rail pressure DTCs, low fuel flow rate, and at least some metallic particles in fuel system.

I said: Fuel was grossly okay. Edmunds said:

I said: They replaced the entire fuel system under warranty. Edmunds said:

Sure, we don't know the minutia of what happened. But that's why I said, "after what appears.."

Remember someone tipped the dealer and Ram this is a extended test drive vehicle.
Sounds like they are doing research.
I felt you posted something pretty definite.
They still hadn't decided what it was.

Do us a favor and let us know if they explain what caused it.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

It's stagnant. Has been any change in the postings since it went to the investigation stage.

Anyone have direct contact?
I read that there were "160" failures. That has to mean that is what started it.
It also mentions up to 2011 I think...
Anyone know what the total number of reported failures are?
I have read though this thread before and I know allot of guys are frustrated with the inactivity.
Like I said does anyone actually have a contact they can call and personally talk to at the NHTSA?
I haven't called Paul at the DOT in a while but he has been helpful and I have sent him my information.
I encourage anyone from Canada, having a problem which is safety related, to do the same.

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Paul Tiessen[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Motor Vehicle Defect Investigator[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Transport Canada, Motor Vehicle Safety Directorate[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Motor Vehicle Safety Investigations Laboratory[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]80 Noel Street, Gatineau, QC J8Z 0A1 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]tel.819.994.3168[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]paul.tiessen@tc.gc.ca[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Government of Canada[/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[kjclow]

I have tried to contact NHTSA and got back a generic form letter.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

I have tried to contact NHTSA and got back a generic form letter.

Damn
I get the feeling that the main reason that VW of America is "steppin up" and repairing these out of warranty is the fact they are currently under investigation.
The DOT is in a wait and see what the NHTSA does. After all why spend money when someone else will spend theirs.
Thx

 

[kjclow]

You got it Joe!

 

[GoFaster]

The number of VW common-rail HPFPs that have been replaced under warranty (for whatever reason) was in the thousands at the time that VW was last called upon to supply information to NHTSA, and that is getting on a couple of years ago. The link is in this thread ... somewhere.

At the time this came out, it was estimated (and we can do no better, with what we had on hand) that for any given VW common-rail Jetta/Golf TDI on the road in the USA, there was roughly a 1% chance of that vehicle having a HPFP failure in any given year.

This is at least first-order consistent with the number of people who had reported two HPFP failures on the same vehicle. If there are 100,000-ish common-rail TDI cars on the road, and 1% fail per year, there are going to be a small number of double failures - and there are. If the failure rate were an order of magnitude better (0.1% per year) then statistically this should only happen to (roughly) one vehicle every 10 years, and that's not the case, these vehicles have not even been out for 10 years and a number of repeated failures have been reported on this very forum. How many are out there but not reported on this forum, or whose dealer took care of the situation so that people had no reason to complain ... no one knows.

There's no way to know whether this has improved over time. One would hope that it has.

 

[Lightflyer1]

and no way of knowing if the repeated failures were caused by the same initial issue (whatever that was/is) or due to improper servicing/repair of the initial issue.

 

[STRANGETDI]

It is definitely more than 160 failures, more like 1600. There is an Excel spreadsheet that lists HPFP failures, by state and the dealers who serviced them. It is definitely in this thread somewhere or in the NHTSA link. I remember looking at it, it even might have complete by VW for the investigation.

I think my dealer did 11.

 

[STRANGETDI]

It is definitely more than 160 failures, more like 1600. There is an Excel spreadsheet that lists HPFP failures, by state and the dealers who serviced them. It is definitely in this thread somewhere or in the NHTSA link. I remember looking at it; it even might have completed by VW for the investigation.

I think my dealer did 11.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

Thank you Everyone
Question
Under normal driving conditions where a person doesn't daily beat on their vehicle...lol
After all ... normal is open to opinion.
Is the hpfp, and fuel pump sending unit the only weak point that is prone to failure under normal use?
I am trying to determine if I should install a 2 micron filter kit , when the vw extended warranty expires, so it would limit our expenses down the road if we keep the car.
Hate to throw equity away, through no fault of our own.
Joe

 

[GoFaster]

Given that you are in Canada and that VW has not been good about covering these under goodwill here, I would look into doing the 2micron kit once you are through warranty, unless you are planning to trade it in.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

Given that you are in Canada and that VW has not been good about covering these under goodwill here, I would look into doing the 2micron kit once you are through warranty, unless you are planning to trade it in.

I agree...in theory
Any other weak points I should consider ?

 

[turbovan+tdi]

As far as I can tell, every engine that uses the Bosch CP4 has a rate of fuel pump failure that is higher than it should be, although the failure rates seem to vary, and certainly the complaints rate varies depending on how the manufacturer handles their customers.

I won't buy anything that has a CP4 injection pump. Since that includes most modern diesels ... I'm back to gasoline engines. The Chevrolet Cruze diesel may have been a failure in the marketplace, but it doesn't use a CP4, and the vaporware-in-North-America Mazda diesels don't use it, either.

Ford are having a higher failure rate than GM. This was from my diesel forum-

I am Todd Form T&C Diesel, I've seen the CP3.4 last form 15K to 380K miles, The CP3.4 is just not the robust design of CP3s (over 30 different configuration's) The CP4 is used on many vehicles Ford, GM , Ram 3.0 and others.

Water is the big killer of all HPCR pumps, contaminates are 2nd, and Poor volume would be 3rd. Filter labels are so mis-leading I would get banned if I posted the truth on the procedures used to rate Filters ( Most re-badged filters are rock catchers only)
The CP4 has 3 main bushings Cam ,Tail and Front, the tail bushing takes a beating and eventually the trim will get out of spec and self destruct the pump.

You can add to the life of this pump (CP4) by keeping your fuel tank full in summer heat, the fuel cools this unit.

I forgot to add, depending on use ,Re-bushing the pump will extend its life, I know its a hassle to remove. If this pump is freshen up at 200K-250K it will last, The front seals leak at about this range also, The Ford version has more problems BC it does not have a GP (Gear pump) mounted on the rear, its internal lubrication is dependent on the external lift. The pump itself will meter more combustion fuel incorrectly (Ford) if the lift system is restricted or restrictive.

Whose CR?

It stands for Common Rail.

I agree...in theory
Any other weak points I should consider ?

Buy an ALH, that's the only known cure,

 

[GoFaster]

... or go back to spark ignition, which is what I've done.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

Really sorry everyone
Rough evening trying to talk the wife off the ledge...lol...she kept moving out of reach

I am trying to get my head around the idea of keeping the car.
The NHTSA investigation is a good thing in that it is helping everyone deal with a bad situation.
VW of America is stepping up, for whatever reason.
ATR showed us links to a 2Micron filtration system that will, possibly, limit the damage from a HPFP failure.
I asked JS Performance, in Abbotsford, to look into the system for me.

Question I was asking...


Under normal driving conditions where a person doesn't daily beat on their vehicle...lol
After all ... normal is open to opinion.
(These questions are directed to rest of the car.)

Is the hpfp, and fuel pump sending unit the only weak point that is prone to failure under normal use?

Are there hidden well known weakness's I should be made aware of?

Anything that will come as a surprise to me and you guys all know that it is going to fail.
Just an honest question from someone trying to enjoy their car.

 

[Scratchy101]

I downloaded the spreadsheets when they were first linked on this thread.
Here are some summarized specs from it.

Of 3,037 total records for repairs done in 22 months:
856 HPFP repairs done in 2011 - 197 due to misfuelling
2181 HPFP repairs done in 2012 - 397 due to misfuelling (Jan. - Oct.)

However looking at some of comments (after filtering out the misfuels) it appears there were more misfuelled vehicles than the ones counted with an X in the Misfuel column.
File name is INRD-EA11003-54335P.xlsx

 

[Smokin_Joe]

I downloaded the spreadsheets when they were first linked on this thread.
Here are some summarized specs from it.

Of 3,037 total records for repairs done in 22 months:
856 HPFP repairs done in 2011 - 197 due to misfuelling
2181 HPFP repairs done in 2012 - 397 due to misfuelling (Jan. - Oct.)

However looking at some of comments (after filtering out the misfuels) it appears there were more misfuelled vehicles than the ones counted with an X in the Misfuel column.

Thank you
I know statistically that isn't many based on total volume but looking at it realistically...659 lives were affected negatively in 2011 because they drove a TDI and 1784 were affected negatively in 2012 because they drove a TDI.
I think Bosch and Volkswagen should be held to a higher standard.
No.... I think manufacturers, in general, should try harder to set a better standard.
(My bias Old School Opinion)
Hope Volkswagen keeps trying to repair the damage that Bosch has done.

 

[Matt927]

Bosch recommends a wear scar for diesel fuel that is not guaranteed by ASTM D975 in the United States.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

Bosch recommends a wear scar for diesel fuel that is not guaranteed by ASTM D975 in the United States.

Okay...
Canadian grades of fuel meet the Bosch recommendations?

Next question that seems obvious to me..

Shouldn't any vehicle being exported to a country, be designed so it will run on the fuel available in that country?
(It might run better on additives, performance wise, but it shouldn't self destruct.)

I thought years ago they had to test vehicle designs for 50,000 miles in order to be accepted into a country. (Safety and emission testing) Wouldn't these failures have occurred? I guess statistically they would be protected.

 

[Matt927]

Posted before, but a good read.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/meeting/2003/022003bosch.pdf

 

[turbovan+tdi]

... or go back to spark ignition, which is what I've done.

True. Civics are a good example of a decent car that gets good MPG.

I've never owned a Jetta before but I really love my Mk4, the ALH is a wicked powerplant. My parents are borrowing it while they are in town and they commented on how nice it was to drive and how much power it has. If I could run waste oils on it, I'd be in heaven,

The newer diesels are too much money to own and too plugged up with emission crap plus they don't get the MPG they should, and with the price of diesel and the price of DPF's etc, its simply not worth it anymore.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

True. Civics are a good example of a decent car that gets good MPG.

I've never owned a Jetta before but I really love my Mk4, the ALH is a wicked powerplant. My parents are borrowing it while they are in town and they commented on how nice it was to drive and how much power it has. If I could run waste oils on it, I'd be in heaven,

The newer diesels are too much money to own and too plugged up with emission crap plus they don't get the MPG they should, and with the price of diesel and the price of DPF's etc, its simply not worth it anymore.

Regarding spark
I just prefer the Everready attitude of a diesel.
It keeps going and going and going...
(or it's supposed too lol)

Not knowing that the new TDI had a problem we bought it on the reputation of the ALH.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

Posted before, but a good read.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/meeting/2003/022003bosch.pdf

So this Bosch document says that fuel, sold in the United States, on average is unfit, when compared to European. Could be true.
Wonder what the rest of the world's fuel looks like?
Not a scientist...
I have always said that cars should be expected to run in real world conditions and if the fuel from a certain country isn't up to spec they shouldn't export it there.
I guess that is why we don't see as many diesel powered options that they have in other countries.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

The new TDI....Black Sheep of the Family no one wants to talk about

Geez
When were you guys goin to tell me about this little secret?

http://forums.tdiclub.com/announcement.php?f=43

 

[ATR]

Geez
When were you guys goin to tell me about this little secret?

http://forums.tdiclub.com/announcement.php?f=43

That's been a known issue for quite some time now. Happened to me once. Picked up a front grill block off from idparts last year and never had the problem again.

 

[Lightflyer1]

So this Bosch document says that fuel, sold in the United States, on average is unfit, when compared to European. Could be true.
Wonder what the rest of the world's fuel looks like?
Not a scientist...
I have always said that cars should be expected to run in real world conditions and if the fuel from a certain country isn't up to spec they shouldn't export it there.
I guess that is why we don't see as many diesel powered options that they have in other countries.

Read here:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=433465

The standard isn't the same as the fuel quality actually being sold.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

That's been a known issue for quite some time now. Happened to me once. Picked up a front grill block off from idparts last year and never had the problem again.

Hellooo...

Really sorry everyone
Rough evening trying to talk the wife off the ledge...lol...she kept moving out of reach

I am trying to get my head around the idea of keeping the car.
The NHTSA investigation is a good thing in that it is helping everyone deal with a bad situation.
VW of America is stepping up, for whatever reason.
ATR showed us links to a 2Micron filtration system that will, possibly, limit the damage from a HPFP failure.
I asked JS Performance, in Abbotsford, to look into the system for me.

Question I was asking...


Under normal driving conditions where a person doesn't daily beat on their vehicle...lol
After all ... normal is open to opinion.
(These questions are directed to rest of the car.)

Is the hpfp, and fuel pump sending unit the only weak point that is prone to failure under normal use?

Are there hidden well known weakness's I should be made aware of?

Anything that will come as a surprise to me and you guys all know that it is going to fail.
Just an honest question from someone trying to enjoy their car.

Wouldn't this qualify as a secret to me and a well known fact to everybody else...lol
I had asked earlier for any well known secrets to be divulged.
Good thing we have global warming and Vancouver is becoming the new California