NHSTA ends investigation...

Lightflyer1

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1 mile - 60 miles should be enough to get off the tracks, but history has shown that humans will not do the right thing in all cases.

Take the CHP officer who perished with his family when his floor mats caused their throttle to be stuck to the floor.

He could have held the Start/Stop button for three seconds to shut off the car, and much more intuitively, could have shifted the car to neutral.

But he didn't and tragically died. I work in a company that deals with many vehicles and drivers, and far too many of them figure out ways to ignore symptoms/lights/warnings until they are stranded.

Build a better mousetrap and the world will build better idiots. It will only be a matter of time before an HPFP does directly cause harm through a stall.
As you said, no amount of engineering will suffice to those who don't/won't do the right thing. I don't necessarily hold VW or any car maker responsible for that. The driver even had incorrect too long, wrong model floor mats in the car, which was deemed to have caused the accident in the first place Causing the accelerator to stick open. I don't fault the mfg in that instance either.

At least in the US, all but a few early ones were covered from my reading.
 

Smokin_Joe

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Sorry you were confused about what this investigation was responsible for. As stated before it is only to insure there isn't a defect that would cause death or great bodily harm to a significant number of people. It was never about holding VW responsible for anything but that. Sure a death may occur as it will with anything. But if it is statistically insignificant and not an intentional act, it will be hard to get anything else done. Unless someone sues or class action.
I think I am agreeing with you....
So the next time that VW refuses to pay to repair one of these cars with less than ?????..miles on it , after the pump destroys the fuel system, they should sue.
Armed with the report and whatever else is needed they should sue and set a president.
If they win great if they don't......cross that bridge when you come to it.
Personally this will probably turn into a class action situation.
The lawyers know a good thing when they see it and if an individual sues they settle out of court.
 

South Coast Guy

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Please don't do this. You are trying to make it worse than it actually is. One mile to 60 miles warning is enough to get off the tracks. If not get out of the car. You should never stop on a crossing any way. Very few have failed and the huge safety issue you try and bring up just isn't really there. You probably have a way better chance dying from something else driving than this to worry about. You are sensationalizing a made up event that in all likely hood won't happen.
Ditto.
 

IFRCFI

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Personally this will probably turn into a class action situation.
Which yields almost nothing for those participating in the class. Go back and research awards in class action suits regarding product warranty, suitability, longevity in situations where safety isn't a concern.

5 years later, you might, MIGHT get a token couple of hundred dollars or a discount on a new VW. It's likely you will get nothing at all.

Class action suits are great for lawyers, terrible for plaintiffs. That is a fact. VW is the 2nd largest auto maker in the world. This is trivial for them.

No one is going to sue directly (non-Class Action). How much money would it take in attorney's fees to recoup your $6,000?
 
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Roshermoore

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Huh?

Personally this will probably turn into a class action situation.
The lawyers know a good thing when they see it
No lawyer is going to take this case. There have been no damages suffered. VW has been covering the cost of repairs, except for a few cases way back in early 09. Even out of pocket expenses have been covered by the new car Road Service coverage during the first three years or 36 months if you were more that 100 miles away from home. (up to $500.00) And I got another $200 in a gift card since our expenses were more than $500.00.
 

Smokin_Joe

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Which yields almost nothing for those participating in the class. Go back and research awards in class action suits regarding product warranty, suitability, longevity in situations where safety isn't a concern.
5 years later, you might, MIGHT get a token couple of hundred dollars or a discount on a new VW. It's likely you will get nothing at all.
Class action suits are great for lawyers, terrible for plaintiffs. That is a fact. VW is the 2nd largest auto maker in the world. This is trivial for them.
No one is going to sue directly (non-Class Action). How much money would it take in attorney's fees to recoup your $6,000?
No lawyer is going to take this case. There have been no damages suffered. VW has been covering the cost of repairs, except for a few cases way back in early 09. Even out of pocket expenses have been covered by the new car Road Service coverage during the first three years or 36 months if you were more that 100 miles away from home. (up to $500.00) And I got another $200 in a gift card since our expenses were more than $500.00.
I totally agree with both of you, but possibly the only chance to keep vw repairing these is if a class action forces them to. Individuals have sued before they started repairing them and they always settled out of court.
They obviously thought it was worth the effort to sue.
(At least from the information I discovered when I had my first hpfp failure.)
If vw continues to upgrade the early cp4's and failures disappear, no need to sue.
Time will tell.
 
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Lightflyer1

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The question comes down to "How many are failing now?". If they have fixed the issue currently everything will just die off. They may continue to fix engines under some mileage.
 

truman

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Class action lawsuit will likely result in $500 coupon toward new car and millions in legal fees. Without a written warranty, there is no guarantee that the present good will repairs will continue.
 

waltzconmigo

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GTIDan---just wondering how you came to chose Power Service and if your are now using an additive for lubricity or to control water, some other reason? Sorry to hear about your failure but commend you sharing. good luck going forward.
 

Smokin_Joe

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turbovan+tdi

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You are sensationalizing a made up event that in all likely hood won't happen.
Until it happens and someone dies and a few have posted the car died suddenly, one man IIRC said his wife was driving it and it died in an intersection. Just a matter of time before someone dies. :(

1 mile - 60 miles should be enough to get off the tracks, but history has shown that humans will not do the right thing in all cases.

Take the CHP officer who perished with his family when his floor mats caused their throttle to be stuck to the floor.

He could have held the Start/Stop button for three seconds to shut off the car, and much more intuitively, could have shifted the car to neutral.

But he didn't and tragically died. I work in a company that deals with many vehicles and drivers, and far too many of them figure out ways to ignore symptoms/lights/warnings until they are stranded.

Build a better mousetrap and the world will build better idiots. It will only be a matter of time before an HPFP does directly cause harm through a stall.
Push button ignitions are assine, leave keys alone. I didn't know holding the button in for 3 sec's would shut the car off, maybe that should be printed above the button.
Evidence is still out it was the mats, and Toyota's coding for runaway is a logistic nightmare, they cut corners, period.
 

DPM

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Until it happens and someone dies and a few have posted the car died suddenly, one man IIRC said his wife was driving it and it died in an intersection. Just a matter of time before someone dies. :(

How does this issue differ from any other failure of any other vehicle? How did we survive whenever (eg) cars occasionally stalled when warming up on choke?
 

Lightflyer1

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People die every day from something. If you continually worry about some tiny made up chance of your dying, your life must not be very pleasant. There are many ways you could die and this is just one of the miniscule possibilities that exist. You could stay home and have an aircraft crash into your house and kill your family. Seen many of these on the news that really did happen, not just someone posting on a forum on the web that might of happened. Driving a car is a death defying act anyway. There is some small chance you will die every time you get behind the wheel. People accept that and drive anyway.
 

Blackheart

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Now that Direct Gas Ignition cars are achieving nearly 40 mpg without the complexity of a turbo and a DPF, I'm glad I got rid of my Jetta TDI last year. I hope VW keeps repairing these cars. But, "hope" is not a plan....
 

Marc_TDI

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OK so end to HPFP Conundrum.....
The NTSB says 'game over" and that's that.
I had my HPFP replaced 1 year ago during an unrelated mechanical issue...Dealership couldn't figure out the problem and it hadn't failed...so I have the latest revision HPFP.
I'll continue to use an additive.
Some may disagree, but I think this was mostly due to people miss-fueling the TDI, some poor manufacturing of the first version HPFP's and some bad fuel out there.
VWofA did OK after a long drawn out deal and replaced a lot of HPFP's, YES they should have jumped on it much quicker...but in the end it's pretty much resolved.

It's very unfortunate for those out there that went through hell, being the first ones effected by this and getting the shaft from VW, some having to fight the Dealership/VWofA until they "saw the light" and addressed this issue.
I'm now more concerned about the turbo in these 09-10 models as I've read they aren't that robust. The DPF on mine comes as a 2-peice unit so it won't be a big deal getting it replaced when that time comes around.

All-in-all I still like this model...being the last of the European styled sedans...the 2011s and after were "decanted" and decidedly not European styled and made more to attract the American market, these days a Jetta looks more like a Ford from the front and a Beemmer from the rear....I think it lost what character it had which is disappointing as from the MkIIIs to the MkV's had a look and feel that kind of stood out on the road amongst the other manufactures vehicles...it was clear you were driving a VW.

I only have 60K on mine so it has lots of life left, not even thinking about trading it in...unless VW comes up with a Hybrid diesel of some kind or a vehicle that has something to set it apart from the others on the road.
I love my TDI, but think that other makers are starting to catch up (not that quickly though) mileage-wise, the spread between diesel fuel price vs gas is almost gone so we aren't getting that much of an advantage as we did 10 years ago.

I'm not going to dump mine to run off and get some gasser anytime soon....we'll see what the future brings for the TDI.
Until then I'm gonna drive and be happy.
 
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nate0031

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Until it happens and someone dies and a few have posted the car died suddenly, one man IIRC said his wife was driving it and it died in an intersection. Just a matter of time before someone dies. :(
Lol. You keep preaching this, going on about all the death and blood that'll flood the streets because of HPFP failures. The fact is, it hasn't killed anyone. In fact, I haven't heard of it even coming close.

In most cases of power loss while driving, a car carries enough momentum for the driver to move out of the flow of traffic. If you don't have any momentum because you were stopped waiting to turn etc, then unless you stopped in the flow of traffic in the first place, you're generally fine staying put for a few minutes waiting for help.

I've seen a number of cars stalled in intersections. So far, everytime the other light turns green, people just sit and honk. After a moment, others will come up and help push it out of the way. I've broke down several times throughout the years, overheating, flat tires, dead fuel pumps etc. I'm still here.

Further, this inherent risk of being stopped on a road would extend to any cause on any car, not just HPFP failures on VW's. AAA brings fuel to over 100,000 customers that run out on the road in the three months of summer alone. This would be just as hazardous as stopping because your pump failed. Again, that's over 100,000 incidents in only THREE MONTHS reported by only one company. So we know the actual statistic is far higher. In our case, we're talking a couple thousand cars at most over the course of 5-6 years. On your logic, we should see droves of deaths resulting from every other cause of cars stalling on the road.

You keep touting all these failures that WILL happen, and all these deaths that WILL happen, but the fact is, they haven't. You are far more likely to find yourself stalled out on the road for 1000 other reasons, regardless of what kind of car you drive. Your claims are baseless, but such fear mongering and sensationalism finds root quickly because of the inherent expense of this failure and the unpredictability. You can keep up on your tires, you can be sure to never run low on fuel; but aside from modifying the fuel system, you really can't control the HPFP failure.

Don't get me wrong, any loss of human life is tragic. Of all the things that could kill you in a given day though, or any given vehicle, this is not the one to lose sleep at night over, it's just needless hype.
 
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Smokin_Joe

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Some may disagree, but I think this was mostly due to people miss-fueling the TDI, some poor manufacturing of the first version HPFP's and some bad fuel out there.
Mostly? NHTSA found that there was no evidence to support the excuse of misfueling. Cars tested and purposely fueled with gasoline never experienced a HPFP failure.
If you read the report there is a number of failures that are under the unknown category so feel free to think what you want, it is supposed to be a free country lol
Marc_TDI, I would love to see evidence that this issue is "resolved"......
I agree....
 

Victor Ward

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I dont know if this helps but perhaps it would be wise to hold on to your recipts after refuleing.

If these problems are due to misfuling or contamintated fuel this would be your evidence against your local fueling station of contaminated diesel or it would be evidence that you filled up with the wrong fuel if you have a failure to to contamination/misfuel.

It would probably also help to try going to the same station and paying with the same card to further document your fillups.
 

GTIDan

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GTIDan---just wondering how you came to chose Power Service and if your are now using an additive for lubricity or to control water, some other reason? Sorry to hear about your failure but commend you sharing. good luck going forward.
Hi there.......
I went with power service (silver bottle) mainly because it's been around a long time and seems to have proven itself. I add about 10 percent over the recommended amount........just for good measure. I'm sure there are other products out there but this one is avaliable at almost any auto parts outlet.

From reading the closing report it appears Bosch has made a number of changes to the HPFP. Hopefully with mine being a rebuit unit it has all the updates.......we'll see I guess. BTW: I use it for all the reasons you mentioned.

Thanks for the good wishes..........back at ya. :)
 

Marc_TDI

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.....I'll be holding onto my receipts.

I think "it's over"....not fixed, I bet we won't see any science.
The NTSB concluded their investigation, VWofA is now replacing HPFP's long after warranty.

I'd also go as far to say we won't see a resolution or explanation on the root cause.

Hello Microsoft...yes...my Outlook Express 4 has some problems...
what's that? oh you'll address that...and you'll do this how?
OK...so when will Outlook Express 5 be out then?
 

Marc_TDI

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It basically means Microsoft will "fix" the problem by releasing a new version, with it's own set of new problems rather that fix the old version.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a root cause, the NTSB and VWoA appear to have moved on...problem addressed, replace HPFPs and that's that.

They will just replace the HPFP and/or fuel systems that present themselves when they fail rather than completely redesign the HPFP.

Did we get a "Bastard Stepchild" of a HPFP while the European version is better?
From reading here on the Forum this whole debacle accounts for 1-2% of the vehicles sold in the US.
Our fuel has lubricity issues
Most of the TDI's don't respond well to Bio-diesel higher than B20, the result is oil dilution or injector wear/destruction.

An example of not fixing an issue by VWoA is the 2000-2003 TDI with the faulty rear brake switch...they never fixed the problem or design...they just replaced it with same on their dime.
I had 2 replaced on my 2002 all free-of-charge....this is their solution. No root cause. No fixed problem.
 
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Trooper81

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Surprised no one is cheering the fact that VWoA is extending certain year TDI's HPFP warranty's coverage on HPFP's to 10 years 120,000 miles. Partial victory?
 

GoFaster

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Not if you have a failure out of that stated warranty period. Previously, these were getting fixed because VW's feet were being held to the fire. Now, it's uncertain.
 

Borsig

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I traded in my 2011 with 116K on it Saturday. I got the letter Tuesday.

Only time will tell on how the new TDI engines in the 2015's fare. But I got a good 116K, and a good trade value and equity out of my wagon. Trust it to 250K? Nope. Cut and run before the timing belt, and fuel pump warranty expiration. I bought an extended warranty to 100K becasue of the HPFP alone. What a waste that turned out to be.
 

fede179070

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Surprised no one is cheering the fact that VWoA is extending certain year TDI's HPFP warranty's coverage on HPFP's to 10 years 120,000 miles. Partial victory?
Not al all. They left out numerous newer cars that have the same pump design they just admitted being faulty. They took forever to address the issue and have failed at it (in my opinion). A fuel pump failing while driving constitutes a serious safety hazard for the driver and passengers of the car, as well as other users of the road. Piss poor job VW, congrats!
 

Borsig

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The fuel pump isn't faulty. Our diesel sucks.

Shall I post the bosch powerpoint on wear scar and resulting internal damage to a pump?
 

fede179070

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The fuel pump isn't faulty. Our diesel sucks.

Shall I post the bosch powerpoint on wear scar and resulting internal damage to a pump?
If they sell cars with this pump on the american market that have some issues with diesel quality then the pump is faulty. They should have used a more robust design.
 
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turbovan+tdi

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Surprised no one is cheering the fact that VWoA is extending certain year TDI's HPFP warranty's coverage on HPFP's to 10 years 120,000 miles. Partial victory?
Nothing to cheer about, VW has basically kicked you CR owners in the nuts and are laughing ala Nelson on the Simpsons.


The fuel pump isn't faulty. Our diesel sucks.

Shall I post the bosch powerpoint on wear scar and resulting internal damage to a pump?
Our fuel isn't as good but its not the issue. If you read the failures, even owners using additives have had failures.
 

Lightflyer1

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It took so long for the NHTSA to do their job (yeah right) that the cars covered by the letter are almost all out of mileage already. Still to be seen what VW covers now.
 

YukonLT

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It took so long for the NHTSA to do their job (yeah right) that the cars covered by the letter are almost all out of mileage already. Still to be seen what VW covers now.
This. My 2010 has 149,000 on it...I laughed when I got the letter. VW has to know that people who buy these cars generally rack up a lot of miles, so it seems pretty lame to me that they only went to 120,000 miles on the extension.
 
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