Newbies and Vets: Tips for better fuel economy!

BleachedBora

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Location
Gresham, Oregon
TDI
'81 DMC-12, '15 GL350 CDI 275 hp/448 tq - '81 Caddy ALH, '05 E320 CDI 250hp/450 tq
I've thought about doing a list like this for a long time. I remember when I first started driving my 1997 Jetta TDI I saw people claiming 50+ MPG. I figured they were off their rocker because I was only getting 36 if I was lucky. I fueled at Flying J (Now Loves) in Troutdale, Oregon, ran my tire pressure at 32, and drove like I stole the thing. Over the course of over 11 years and 500,000 miles of driving TDIs later I consider myself by no means an expert, but I'd like to consider myself a very well informed driver. The following is a list that people are welcome to add to. Rules and my top 10 list might be added to and changed as well as time goes on. The point is to get a discussion going so that those that are new to our community aren't intimidated with the fuel economy numbers they are getting, as well as meaningful ways on how to get better economy.

Some rules of thumb:

Rule #1: Never trust the computer--not even a $80,000+ avionics package in an aircraft is 100% accurate with regards to the computer. (For what it's worth, general aviation fuel gauges are required by law to be accurate at only one time--empty).
Rule #2: If you want to know your mileage, fill up completely to the top every time, this is after letting all the foam settle. Take miles driven and divide by x.xxx gallons (in the US) to get MPG. If you want to be very anal you must realize that if your wheels/tires are different than stock then your calculation can be off by 1-8%+. From the factory your speedo is off by ~3 MPH but your odometer is spot on. Remember that when putting on new tires, oversize tires will make your speedo more accurate, but your odometer will start to under report. My MK3 Jetta with 195/65/15 tires was perfect on the speedo, but the odometer was low by 6%.

I've been married since 29 Sept 2007. When I first met my wife she stated that her previous car got "X" MPG, which she always got off the computer display. She had a car without a computer and I had to teach her how to do MPG. She kept resetting the trip odometer when she went places to "see how far she goes." Point is that with her car which was supposed to get 28 MPG, she's had some tanks as low as 19.6 MPG. Since I first wrote this thread 6-years ago (update Oct 2014) she's had a Jetta Wagon and a Passat Wagon, she has become quite adept at calculating mileage too :).

This all brings us to:
BB's tips for higher mileage*, more or less in my order of easiness and cost effectiveness, and according to my own experience--I have multiple tanks in a row with over 60 MPG. I'm also one of the very few members to get over 900 miles in a tank WITH A MK3 (15 gallon tank when dry). Driving for mileage is hard to do unless you know what to do--again YMMV:
1) Run tire pressure at 90% of recommended max pressure as stated on side of tire. (Free)
2) Run a good quality fresh fuel with a high cetane number (see bottom of post for some stations cetane numbers). In the west Chevron seems to by far bring the best numbers. A poor quality fuel with low cetane will lower MPG by up to 5. Just because it's a truck stop it usually means you are putting crap in your tank (especially Flying J). In the Midwest BP/Amoco are great--both BP and Chevron have stated that they won't have Cetane under 49, which is what our cars need. If you're filling with crappy fuel run an additive. I personally like Lubromoly Super Diesel Additive. There are lots of writeups online of differing qualities of additives. Biodiesel up to B20 won't really have an effect on your mileage. B100 will lower it by ~5 MPG. Note that these numbers are taken with over 750,000 miles of careful calculations over the course of many years, different cars, and different seasons.
Example: If you get 40 MPG from Flying J at $4.25/gallon, and 45 MPG from Chevron/BP at $4.49/gallon, you are paying $.10625/mile with the J, and $.09978/mile with the higher quality fuel. (And if you find a quality station next to a truck stop often the difference in price is less than $.05/gallon!) You actually save $64 just in fuel over the course of 10,000 miles by buying the more expensive fuel. This says nothing for what you might save in maintenance (injection pump and the rest of the fuel system) over the course of time. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's good. I've called lots of corporate offices and have numbers on the following cetane levels*** (See end of post)

Most truck stops are going to be low numbers because most semi's run the same regardless of cetane number.
3) Have a good working Mass Air Flow sensor and clean filters/snow screen & non-restrictive intake. (Air filter ~$14-20 for cold region filter--run it regardless of location. $20-30 for a good fuel filter. A poorly working MAF will give you 5+ less MPG. If you are in doubt to if yours is working, unplug it and see if you have more power. If you do, your MAF is bad. If you are running a cone filter (like K&N) you don't even have to check it, it's probably bad already. A stock air filter flows better than a K&N and it won't kill your sensor. A new Bosch revision "C" MAF will run about $100 for a 1999-2003 car, and about $160 for a 2004+ car.
4) Go easy on the accelerator. Drive like you have an egg under your foot. Bear in mind that when you are coasting in gear you use no fuel until you decelerate to ~1200 RPM. You burn ~.5 quarts per HOUR with a warm engine at idle, turning your car off at lights to save fuel is generally ineffective. *I rented a BMW 520D in Germany in September of 2014. It had auto stop/start. My feelings are that when the computer controls the stop start it's going to be more effective in fuel savings then you will be doing it manually. ;) Be gentle on acceleration--if you have a boost gauge limit your boost to 5 lbs. while speeding up. There is a lot of talk about city vs highway driving. A lot of people seem to confuse city driving with slow driving - what they fail to realize is the effects on your MPG are totally different between the two. The reason city MPG is low is because you have lots of stop and go; when you are accelerating you are using a lot of fuel. A cold engine also is less efficient than a warm engine. Furthermore every time you hit the brakes you waste precious kinetic energy (speed) which cost you fuel to build up...unless you are an expert at timing lights. This cycle continues to repeat itself from stopping point to stopping point. Because of this you see low MPG. Slow (constant/rural road) driving is optimal, since you can cruise for a long time in a high gear (low RPM) without much throttle at all due to the lower amount of wind resistance (aerodynamic drag) from trying to slice through the air at a lower speed. The result is excellent MPG. Highway driving is the median MPG; you can cruise at a constant speed in the highest gear, but you are traveling faster so there is more aerodynamic drag, reducing your fuel mileage. (Free)
4a) Those in REALLY cold places (Canada and parts of US where sub-freezing temps are common) often get a bra/cover to limit air intake and/or get a Frostheater. These will help the car warm up faster and therefore be more efficient. That said, don't start the car and let it idle to warm up--it won't warm much without load on the engine and you blow any mileage improvement from a warmer engine by the fuel lost idling (and it's bad for the environment).
5) Don't go oversize on tires or wheels. If you do get larger wheels make sure they weigh the same or less than stock. I run the ENKEI RPF1 wheels which weigh 13.5 lbs (16"). The cost isn't worth it for fuel savings, but I like how they look! 18" R32 wheels are around 27 lbs and will kill your economy.
6) Get a performance chip--Malone tunes as well as TDTuning & Rocketchip are all great choices. They will give you performance when you want it, and fuel economy when you drive nicely. My experience was that Malone gave me a bit more economy over RC. You'll be happy with any that's for sure! (~$300-550 depending on car)
7) Nozzles! ('96-03) Bosch nozzles (the genuine VW T4's are excellent, not to be confused with "DLC 1019's" which are not Bosch) ~($300)
8) Downpipe --- Breathes better, gave me ~2 MPG, but it helped. (~$250-400 again depending on model). On the common rail 2009+ cars, as long as you are an off roader only (or decide to run for testing purposes) you'll find a DPF delete (roughly $550) and stage 2 tune will average a 5-8 MPG improvement.
9) Larger turbo--again better breathing leads to better economy. Hybrid turbos appear to do the best for economy. ($850-3,000+)
10) Have fun, you can be frugal and finesse the car without being a worry wart. It's great to get your first 50 MPG tank, and amazing to get your first 60 MPG tank. Be honest with yourself and others, and realistic as well. When a member goes from a 38 MPG average and then reports a 72 MPG tank no one will believe them. My gains were from 38-42, 42-48, 48-54, a ton of tanks in the 53-58 range, and then a few breaking 60. My personal record is 62.48 MPG. Not bad, especially in an MK3. Probably won't happen in an MK5 or MK6 though!

*Following this guide won't guarantee the same results, but it will guarantee better results than what you have now. I reserve the right to change this guide at any time :).
Cheers, and happy TDI'ing!
-BB


***Cetane levels by fuel company. To ensure accuracy if you have a level to add to the list please forward an email from a corporate office to me, and I will add it to the list. Please bear in mind that the current federal minimum from refiners in the USA is 40. Depending on the quality of the oil used as well as refining processes you'll find 40-42 from refiners in the US and Canada. Anything above that has to do with specific companies additive packages. When companies give a minimum value then it will be listed as a single number. When a company gives a range of numbers bear in mind that more often than not you'll probably find the lower number rather than the higher number. If 40 is listed then it generally means that fuel is bought as is from the refiner--if someone messes up and doesn't put in enough additive at the refinery then that can cause major problems for your fuel system. It's recommended therefore that if you get the inexpensive fuel with low cetane you use a cetane booster (PowerService, Lubromoly Cetane booster or Stanadyne are all great choices), or run a little biodiesel in the tank. If something higher than 42 is listed then the retailer adds their own additive package in addition to the standard refinery additive package. Generally speaking as long as 49 or higher is listed you do not need to worry about adding any additives yourself.

Worldwide published study on cetane levels.

All California Diesel: Minimum 53 Cetane (No wonder it's so expensive down there!)

Propel HPR, 75
Syndiesel, 60
BP (Amoco branded), 51;
Countrymark fuels Diesel-R, 50
Chevron, 49; or 51 with Techron D labels in select markets
ConocoPhillips through the 76 stations (California) 53
PetroCanada, 47-51
BP (Powerblend 47, Otherwise 40-42)
Shell, 46;
Sinclair, 46;
Sunoco Gold, 45 (often +1-5) Sunoco regular is usually 40.
Exxon/Mobile, 43-46
Holiday Stations, 40-43
HESS, 40-42, can be up to 45.
Husky, 40 + diesel Max additives raise another 1-3 from there (41-45 max)

Federal minimum of 40 (as per ASTM D975) - Alphabetical:
CITGO, Flying J/Loves, Pilot, Sheetz, Valero, Walmart, Wawa
 
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rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
The 1Z engine in a A3 or B4 is more than capable of hitting mid 50s tank after tank with a little effort . I've hit just over 64 mpg US twice in my 97 Passat TDI with high 50s tank after tank in city driving . I always get higher in city loops as compared to higher speed highway only loops . I always have .

Over size tires do help lower fuel consumption if you don't over accelerate . Over acceleration with taller gearing from over sized tires will use more fuel .

Only use the gears that are needed for a given acceleration . Like 1st 3rd 5th most of the time is more than adequate .

Speed shift whenever possible as this will save rpms between shifts in city driving improving fuel economy . Get into high gear and stay there as much as conditions will allow this will also save fuel .

Coasting in "N" while at lower speeds in city driving will allow you to go farther without throttle input saving fuel . Also killing the engine when coasting while the engine is still cold can save fuel using your momentum to restart the engine when acceleration is required . Killing the engine should be avoided once the engine is warmed up due to the extra heat in the turbo .

Always look far ahead in traffic to try to avoid ever coming to a complete stop . Avoid using the brakes as much as possible as every time you use the brakes you are wasting fuel .

If possible park on a hill to use gravity to start the engine the first start of the day as this will save energy lost with the first crank of the day . These engines use the most fuel while they are cold so anything you can do to reduce strain while cold will save fuel .

I have close to 8 years of records from my Passat the prove that if care is taken in city loops 52-55 mpg US is quite obtainable . And with a little effort 60 + mpg US is doable in a 1Z equipped A3 & B4 . The best I ever do on the highway is around 50 mpg US @ 65-85 mph .
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Coasting out of gear or in-gear depends entirely on the situation.

Umm..NEVER turn the engine off while driving, that's crazy.

Gravity starting a TDI....
 

zaeli

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2005
Location
North Carolina
TDI
99.5 golf 175k (totaled, sold) 2000 golf tdi 375k (Malone 1.5) 2002 green diesel bug
How did you learn your wife how to figure fuel economy?
I think that's why my ex and I broke up...Good artical!
Btw she got the 04 and I bought myself and 99.5.
 

sadi gaddi

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Location
SE detwa, michigan
TDI
00 jetta
With due respect, I thank all of you for your tips. Its always a good learning process. Never forget - its a hobby.
Secondly, a simple question. Having less weight helps increase average. Would it be advisable to fill up only up to half tank and drive....rather than full tank. Condisering 7-8 gallons weight up to 60+ pounds.
thanks. Appreciate advise/constructive criticism.
 

scooperhsd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Location
Kansas City KS
TDI
NB, 2000, RED(5 Speed conversion) 2015 Golf SE
Then how are you going to know how much you used ? How full is the tank ?

I'll stick to full tanks, thank you very much...
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
scooperhsd said:
Then how are you going to know how much you used ? How full is the tank ?

I'll stick to full tanks, thank you very much...
Talking about this:

Would it be advisable to fill up only up to half tank and drive....rather than full tank. Condisering 7-8 gallons weight up to 60+ pounds.
thanks.
It wouldn't matter. The mileage would be better, but it would impossible to get accurate fuel mileage readings unless the tank was filled every 2000 miles or so.

Is it advisable to run with a partial tank all the time? No because that just leaves more air in there to condensate water intot he fuel.
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Doesn't matter if you fill at half a tank or 1/4 tank, the accuracy is the same if you vent.
 

roadhard1960

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2004
Location
Covington, Ga.
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon GLS 5 speed
Bob, are you saying you have a Magnaflow catalytic converter? If so you wiped out a cat in less than 80,000 miles or you just wanted bigger from the turbo back?
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
roadhard1960 said:
Bob, are you saying you have a Magnaflow catalytic converter? If so you wiped out a cat in less than 80,000 miles or you just wanted bigger from the turbo back?
Yup, I wanted a higher-flow cat to go along with the other exhaust mod goodies in my sig. Bigger downpipe, high-flow cat, 2.5" straight pipe, no muffler, one resonator.
 

roadhard1960

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2004
Location
Covington, Ga.
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon GLS 5 speed
What did all the exhaust net you? Better mileage, more noise, more power? Did you attach everything at the same time? Gator before all of the exhaust work? Gator before the fancy nozzles? New Gator tune after the more free flowing exhaust?
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
roadhard1960 said:
What did all the exhaust net you? Better mileage, more noise, more power? Did you attach everything at the same time? Gator before all of the exhaust work? Gator before the fancy nozzles? New Gator tune after the more free flowing exhaust?
Better sound, more power in that the power band is wider (turbo spools MUCH quicker), and most important, lower EGTs. I don't know if my MPG got any better, but I did average 52 MPG driving to and from Florida driving 65 to 75 MPH immediatly after the exhaust work done. I still just had nozzles then.

I did the nozzles last April, did the exhaust all at the same time about 3 months ago, loaded my Gator tune about 2 weeks ago.
 

DFWDieselJet

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Location
Flower Mound TX
TDI
04 Jetta
BleachedBora said:
You burn ~.5 quarts per HOUR with a warm engine at idle, turning your car off at lights to save fuel is dumb and ineffective.
PD engines burn around .3 GALLONS per hour at idle once warmed up (a little less - yes LESS - until they are warmed up), so turning off the engine is (arguably) more beneficial than with a non-PD engine. Verified on an '04 Jetta, both with ScanGauge and VAG-COM.

I and others have seen a 5% increase in fuel economy by turning off the engine while driving or at long lights, so it can be effective. Whether it's dumb is debateable. (But not here please, this is a great thread!)
 
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SBAtdijetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Houston, TX
TDI
'10 Jetta Cup 6spd, '02 Jetta Auto
I try to remember to turn off the car if I can tell it will be a long wait at a light. Anything well over 30 sec of idle is more fuel than used at start up "normaly". Mine is a PD.

What about cruise control, use it! Maintain a even pace and watch the MPG's rise.
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
How hard is that on the starter? And think about safety.
 

dee_zell

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Location
Toronto, Ontario
TDI
Jetta Wagon 03 auto
BleachedBora said:
Tips for better fuel economy!

6) Get a performance chip[...](~$300-450 depending on car)
7) Nozzles! [...] ($315)
8) Downpipe[...](~$250-400 again depending on model).
9) Larger turbo[...] ($850-3,000+)
My personal advice. Don't go for the above upgrades and you instantly save lotsa, lotsa mulla to buy your fuel!!:D
 
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dee_zell

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Location
Toronto, Ontario
TDI
Jetta Wagon 03 auto
scooperhsd said:
Then how are you going to know how much you used ? How full is the tank ?

I'll stick to full tanks, thank you very much...
It doesn't matter how much fuel you add between vented tanks. Just record your starting mileage, fuel added and then do your mileage calculation at the next vented tank. That's what I do.
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
Bob_Fout said:
How hard is that on the starter? And think about safety.
In a manual trans car you pay more attention not less when cruising with then engine off which equals safer . If I see I'm going to need more acceleration I can have it running in about the same time it takes someone to get back on the throttle in a running car .

When you see you are going to have to stop or need extra acceleration just use your momentum in the highest gear possible to re crank the engine just as it is required saving battery power & starter life .

If this is done properly no more strain is put on the drive train than shifting gears up or down or accelerating & decelerating in gear . Just let the clutch out just enough to get the engine going no more then get into the required gear drive off .

In an automatic it does take more electricity which equals more fuel used less fuel saved to do this but there is a payoff if done with care . Plus the extra strain put on the starter .
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Actually rotarykid, you're wrong. It adds more wear to the clutch because you're dragging the engine from 0 rpms up to 2,000 or 3,000 rpms, depending on your current cruising speed. If you left the engine running with it in neutral, you could rev-match with the throttle to reduce clutch wear, or you could just cruise in gear and put absolutely no wear on the clutch.
 

SBAtdijetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Houston, TX
TDI
'10 Jetta Cup 6spd, '02 Jetta Auto
Bob_Fout said:
How hard is that on the starter? And think about safety.
It may give some extra wear on the starter sure, but safety? How is turning the motor off at long stop lights a safety issue? Please enlighten me on this...;)

Edit: In case you are thinking i turn the motor off while crusing or coasting no, I do not.
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
SBAtdijetta said:
It may give some extra wear on the starter sure, but safety? How is turning the motor off at long stop lights a safety issue? Please enlighten me on this...;)
If you need to move the car NOW.
 

SBAtdijetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Houston, TX
TDI
'10 Jetta Cup 6spd, '02 Jetta Auto
Clutch is depressed and car is in 1st gear, just turn the key and let up clutch. (.5 sec) no prob.

Edit: If your car has problems starting at all/ever then obviously I would not do this nor should you. Also you are at a stop light with many cars in front of you, where would you go anyway?
 
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Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
SBAtdijetta said:
Clutch is depressed and car is in 1st gear, just turn the key and let up clutch. (.5 sec) no prob.
Not fast enough in an "oh s***" situation. Most won't the presence of mind either. I won't gamble my life or those in my car for pennies.
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
VeeDubTDI said:
Actually rotarykid, you're wrong. It adds more wear to the clutch because you're dragging the engine from 0 rpms up to 2,000 or 3,000 rpms, depending on your current cruising speed. If you left the engine running with it in neutral, you could rev-match with the throttle to reduce clutch wear, or you could just cruise in gear and put absolutely no wear on the clutch.
RE-Read what I said , only let the clutch out far enough for long enough to spin the engine NO more !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course if you drop the clutch to crank the engine you will cause extra wear and dampening spring damage .

Last clutch in my 85 TD lasted 700,000 miles so if done correctly no extra wear is done . You don't ever need to let the clutch out completely to get the engine running , Only let it out just enough to spin the engine over to crank it over that's all . Never more !!!

Pay attention to what the point is at which the engine is at say 800-1,200 rpms at the speed you're going around with the engine killed . Use that gear to re crank the engine then shift into the higher gear needed to accelerate to the desired speed .

Had one last 900,000 mies on a 79 Celica without needing to be replaced hardly ever used the starter on that car . Got almost 600,000 miles on an 82 Celica the same . Got over 500,000 on a 80 Rabbit 1.5 LS without a clutch .
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
And killing engine while cruising at speeds without extra acceleration is perfectly fine safe as long as your aren't going into curves or more braking is required , repeated braking . There is plenty of vacuum in the reservoir for needed braking assist . The vacuum will last until you use it .

Kill the engine and then turn the key back on to have speedo & turn signals .

Watch what is going around you just as you should be anyway . When extra power is needed do as I described in the highest gear that matches the rpms that are just enough to restart the engine . Then off you go .

And I'm talking about doing this when you would already be in between gears on a long straight slight down grade or on low speed runs on strait city streets . So no extra cruising out of gear is what I'm talking about to see a gained benefit to city mpgs .
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
DFWDieselJet said:
PD engines burn around .3 GALLONS per hour at idle once warmed up (a little less - yes LESS - until they are warmed up), so turning off the engine is (arguably) more beneficial than with a non-PD engine. Verified on an '04 Jetta, both with ScanGauge and VAG-COM.

I and others have seen a 5% increase in fuel economy by turning off the engine while driving or at long lights, so it can be effective. Whether it's dumb is debateable. (But not here please, this is a great thread!)
There's no way that the PD burns 3 times as much fuel at idle as the VE. Maybe if you had every single accessory on full blast. But not in most circumstances.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
rotarykid said:
Had one last 900,000 mies on a 79 Celica without needing to be replaced hardly ever used the starter on that car .
What'd you do, tow it behind your RV for 500,000 miles?
 
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