New VW diesel engine

[ssamalin]

http://www.dw.com/en/vw-says-new-diesel-engines-are-clean/a-40420382

 

[showdown 42]

Any timeline when this gets approved for use in VW cars? I fear they will slow walk this for years,effectively eliminating diesel cars for yrs.

 

[turbobrick240]

Oh good, the emissions are just some inert dust and hot air.

 

[nomorotors]

"Findings published in the respected scientific journal Nature earlier this year revealed that a minimum of 38,000 people around the world die early every year as a result of the failure of diesel vehicles to meet official emissions limits in real driving conditions."

Give me a break!
-Jason

 

[kjclow]

I wonder how all of this will shake out with the new board at VWAG. Muller is out and many are wondering who will grab on to his parachute.

 

[listerone]

"Findings published in the respected scientific journal Nature earlier this year revealed that a minimum of 38,000 people around the world die early every year as a result of the failure of diesel vehicles to meet official emissions limits in real driving conditions."
Give me a break!
-Jason

And a minimum of 38,000,000 die every year as the result of toenail fungus.

 

[flee]

"Findings published in the respected scientific journal Nature earlier this year revealed that a minimum of 38,000 people around the world die early every year as a result of the failure of diesel vehicles to meet official emissions limits in real driving conditions."

Give me a break!
-Jason

And a minimum of 38,000,000 die every year as the result of toenail fungus.

Maybe there is a way to have it only afflict the incurious and derisive commenters.

 

[GEFP]

Maybe there is a way to have it only afflict the incurious and derisive commenters.

I think it would be more useful to have it infect useless politicians!

 

[NSTDI]

I wonder how many of these who die are in 3rd world countries where diesels are ancient and spew clouds of black smoke?

 

[turbobrick240]

Those numbers are just based on one statistical analysis, and can't be considered all that reliable or accurate. You can be pretty sure that breathing large amounts of NOx isn't going to help you become a centenarian though.

 

[oilhammer]

My grandfather told me once that the death rate is 100%... exactly one per person.

I always get a kick out of that. We (humans) choose poorly quite often, and it is funny in an objective manner to think about the fact that in this country we'll gladly crush thousands of 50 MPG cars because "OMG they are going to kill so many people" yet the tobacco industry is allowed to exist.

If there are aliens watching us, I hope they are laughing... at least someone should get some entertainment.

 

[1854sailor]

My grandfather told me once that the death rate is 100%... exactly one per person.

I always get a kick out of that. We (humans) choose poorly quite often, and it is funny in an objective manner to think about the fact that in this country we'll gladly crush thousands of 50 MPG cars because "OMG they are going to kill so many people" yet the tobacco industry is allowed to exist.

If there are aliens watching us, I hope they are laughing... at least someone should get some entertainment.

Where's that LIKE button?

 

[vwdsmguy]

NOX polution

I have heard it said that 50 of these container ships make more polution than all the world's cars. They burn a fuel 1 step up from crude [bunker fuel]. At least most of this is at sea, not on our roads or in our cities.

 

[jackbombay]

They burn a fuel 1 step up from crude [bunker fuel]. At least most of this is at sea, not on our roads or in our cities.

Their fuel is the left overs after gasoline and diesel have been distilled from crude oil, its almost tar, and has to be heated so it will actually flow through the injectors and the fuel system. This "fuel" is super dirty, and cheap, getting ships to switch to anything resembling diesel fuel will be a tough battle.

 

[oilhammer]

Many ships switch from HFO (heavy fuel oil) to MGO (marine gas oil) when in port or within a certain distance from a populated area anyway. Some only run the more refined MGO exclusively now, which is not quite the same as #2 diesel, but much closer than HFO and the emissions reduction is significant.

From EPA release:

"Emission measurements were taken on one test vessel while steaming between, approaching,
and hotelling at the Ports of Houston, Veracruz and Alta Mira. It was found that switching from
HFO (with a 3.79 % sulfur content) to MGO (with a 0.01% sulfur content) achieved significant
reductions in emissions of SOx and PM (2.5 micron in size) and small reductions in NOx – 89,
80 and 5 percent respectively – at a 2 percent increase in vessel operating costs, due to the
higher cost of lower-sulfur fuel."

 

[jackbombay]

at a 2 percent increase in vessel operating costs, due to the
higher cost of lower-sulfur fuel."

That's encouraging to hear, I got the impression that running cleaner fuel hit their bottom line much harder than that.

 

[oilhammer]

Well that 2% could still be millions of dollars a year for a large shipping company.

 

[tikal]

"Findings published in the respected scientific journal Nature earlier this year revealed that a minimum of 38,000 people around the world die early every year as a result of the failure of diesel vehicles to meet official emissions limits in real driving conditions."

Give me a break!
-Jason

And how many people die when the potential consumer reads the above statement and instead of buying a potentially 'non-clean' diesel that in real driving conditions averages 37 MPG (combined) and goes and purchases an equivalent size vehicle with a gasoline engine that does not have a GPF (gas particulate filter), that gets 25 MPG (combined) and emits volatile organic compounds (VOC) known to contribute to smog an hazardous air quality in major cities?

The cost/benefit is not that straightforward in favor of gasoline cars.

 

[JONZDOG]

Will this survive real world testing outside of a development lab? Dieselgate sure sunk the "truth in engineering" marketing slogan VW/Audi had

 

[GreenLantern_TDI]

From the sounds of that article everyone is going towards electric anyway. Battery production is so muvh cleaner.

 

[tikal]

From the sounds of that article everyone is going towards electric anyway. Battery production is so muvh cleaner.

Good for urban driving for now. Not so good for road trips in which Americans prefer large cars driving long distances. A not so good combination for electrical cars for long distance driving: converting 'dinosaur' size cars to EV going 75 MPH for hundreds of miles.

Now take a look at the size of cars and the distances in Europe, Japan and Korea. Now you have a fertile ground for electrical vehicles.

Are Americans willing to downsize their vehicles so they can be electrified? Unlikely for many generations to come in my view.

 

[GEFP]

From the sounds of that article everyone is going towards electric anyway. Battery production is so muvh cleaner.

Now either you are being sarcastic or are a bit clueless. Battery production cleaner?

Also I don't foresee in the reasonable future battery power being a viable option in colder climates or for rural people that need to travel long distances.

 

[turbobrick240]

EV's won't suit everyone's needs immediately, but I'll wager that they will have a larger market share of new car sales in N. America than diesel cars ever had within 2 years. Shoot, they are probably already selling considerably more.

 

[oilhammer]

EV's won't suit everyone's needs immediately, but I'll wager that they will have a larger market share of new car sales in N. America than diesel cars ever had within 2 years. Shoot, they are probably already selling considerably more.

I am inclined to say "not even close", however I suppose it would help if you qualified that statement. What years are we talking about? Volkswagen's diesels were so successful in the late '70s when they debuted that there was a waiting list to get one.... and was largely instrumental in them building a plant here to start building Rabbits in 1979. In 1981, the diesel was the ONLY way you could have purchased a Dasher here, because the previous year the gas versions sat and gathered dust on dealer lots. Same for the 1981 W123 MB (although they may have dropped the gas 123 sedan after 1979... can't remember). Electric cars, which DID exist then, were few and far between, and it wasn't from lack of trying, as the oil embargo was fertile ground and CARB was just starting to get into full swing.

The EV sales have not even, as of yet, hit the gov't figure that helps give the manufacturers credits for them. That and the current subsidies are right now fueling (no pun intended) their growth. Which while it looks impressive if you simply look at the numbers of EVs, it is dwarfed by the overall sales of ICE vehicles, and EVs still continue to be a tiny percentage of the overall new car sales.

If they do hit this magical number, and if the subsidies are removed, and they are forced to stand on their own merits, THEN we'll see what Americans really think of them. I am still not convinced they will be embraced in any great numbers any time soon, even if the current offerings DO meet the requirements of a LOT of consumers. Again, they are not buying up Versas and Sentras in huge numbers, so why would they make the leap to a more expensive Leaf?

I know we (the folks that frequent this site and are reading this) have largely made a decision to drive less thirsty vehicles, but we are an outspoken minority. And we'd be more likely to embrace a small EV than Jethro Knuckledragger in his new lifted 12 MPG F150 complete with $3k worth of Chinese wheels and tires and a $700/mo 8% interest payment.

 

[turbobrick240]

I am inclined to say "not even close", however I suppose it would help if you qualified that statement. What years are we talking about? Volkswagen's diesels were so successful in the late '70s when they debuted that there was a waiting list to get one.... and was largely instrumental in them building a plant here to start building Rabbits in 1979. In 1981, the diesel was the ONLY way you could have purchased a Dasher here, because the previous year the gas versions sat and gathered dust on dealer lots. Same for the 1981 W123 MB (although they may have dropped the gas 123 sedan after 1979... can't remember). Electric cars, which DID exist then, were few and far between, and it wasn't from lack of trying, as the oil embargo was fertile ground and CARB was just starting to get into full swing.
The EV sales have not even, as of yet, hit the gov't figure that helps give the manufacturers credits for them. That and the current subsidies are right now fueling (no pun intended) their growth. Which while it looks impressive if you simply look at the numbers of EVs, it is dwarfed by the overall sales of ICE vehicles, and EVs still continue to be a tiny percentage of the overall new car sales.
If they do hit this magical number, and if the subsidies are removed, and they are forced to stand on their own merits, THEN we'll see what Americans really think of them. I am still not convinced they will be embraced in any great numbers any time soon, even if the current offerings DO meet the requirements of a LOT of consumers. Again, they are not buying up Versas and Sentras in huge numbers, so why would they make the leap to a more expensive Leaf?
I know we (the folks that frequent this site and are reading this) have largely made a decision to drive less thirsty vehicles, but we are an outspoken minority. And we'd be more likely to embrace a small EV than Jethro Knuckledragger in his new lifted 12 MPG F150 complete with $3k worth of Chinese wheels and tires and a $700/mo 8% interest payment.

Even during the period of peak fuel prices during the OPEC embargo, I don't think diesel car sales made up more than 2 or 3% of new car sales. I could be wrong.

The waiting lists for EV's today dwarfs whatever the diesel wait lists were back then. Battery tech just wasn't mature enough in the 70's/80's to make the EV viable for most people at the time. That has all changed in the last decade or so. Tesla alone is now selling over 2000 EV's a week and increasing rapidly. And there are other manufacturers coming in fast. Despite having lousy batteries/thermal management, the new LEAF will probably sell well. And despite the god-awful looks of the Bolt, they'll sell quite a few.

Yeah, it'll be a few years before EV sales overtake all ICE passenger car sales here, but I think they've already overtaken diesel car sales. VW' s dieselgate blunder just sped that transition up.

 

[oilhammer]

Chevrolet sold almost 23k Bolts last year.... Volkswagen sold almost 69k Golfs (none of which were diesels, obviously).

So it is again quite difficult to say what/how diesel sales specifically fall into things now. I know from 2009 onward, Volkswagen sales of every model offered with a diesel engine rose substantially through 2014, and a substantial chunk of that was courtesy of the TDI engine option, even though they obviously were not all diesels. Our local dealer here said that gasoline sales were flatlined on Jettas and Passats, which prompted a bunch of them getting blown out to fleet sales like Enterprise.

So one could say, VAG's self-inflicted and now self-perpetuating Dieselgate issue has "fueled" some of the recent EV sales, ironically. The only other bread-and-butter diesel passenger car you can even buy today in this country is the Cruze, and they do not advertise them (I doubt most people, even flag waving GM fans, even know they exist). So it isn't exactly like EVs, collectively, have much of a competition.

And just remember, for every ONE Bolt Chevrolet sold last year, TWENTY FIVE Silverados found their way off the dealer lots.

Diesel passenger car sales during the late 1970s were low because there were not much available. The Volkswagen Rabbit, Dasher, the MB 123 and 116, and a couple big GM bombs. It was not until the early/mid '80s that Toyota, Nissan, Isuzu, Mazda, Ford, BMW started selling them here... and by that time, the 1980s boom of excess had caused Americans to quickly forget about fuel economy, so they all went away.... even Volkswagen's offerings, even Mercedes-Benz... the decades long stable of the genre... sold no diesel passenger cars here for a few years.

 

[wxman]

Here is a forecast that LD diesels will grow faster than EV over the next few years:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/41...grow-168-percent-2018-another-86-percent-2019

Of course, market forecasts are inherently dubious propositions.

 

[kjclow]

The waiting lists for EV's today dwarfs whatever the diesel wait lists were back then. Battery tech just wasn't mature enough in the 70's/80's to make the EV viable for most people at the time. That has all changed in the last decade or so. Tesla alone is now selling over 2000 EV's a week and increasing rapidly.

Other then Tesla, I don’t know where this list of people waiting for EVs comes from. I can drive on most any new car lot in Charlotte and find EVs. If they didn’t wash them every day, they all be buried in the sickly green pine pollen that covers everything this time of year. The Tesla line keeps getting longer since they’ve shut the plant down trying to get the computers and robots to do at least as good of job as humans.

Good for urban driving for now. Not so good for road trips in which Americans prefer large cars driving long distances. A not so good combination for electrical cars for long distance driving: converting 'dinosaur' size cars to EV going 75 MPH for hundreds of miles.
Now take a look at the size of cars and the distances in Europe, Japan and Korea. Now you have a fertile ground for electrical vehicles.
Are Americans willing to downsize their vehicles so they can be electrified? Unlikely for many generations to come in my view.

When I moved to Charlotte, my first boss was a German National. He couldn’t understand why Americans didn’t have passports. We explained to him that we could go 4 to 24+ hours in any direction without needing anything other than a drivers license. 4 hours is the quickest route to the ocean. Even going to Canada at the time required nothing more than a birth certificate. From where he grew up 3-4 hours could have put him in at least 3 different countries. It is really a much different world to drive in, if you even owned a car. Most of my coworkers in Germany commuted by rail.

 

[turbobrick240]

Other then Tesla, I don’t know where this list of people waiting for EVs comes from. I can drive on most any new car lot in Charlotte and find EVs. If they didn’t wash them every day, they all be buried in the sickly green pine pollen that covers everything this time of year. The Tesla line keeps getting longer since they’ve shut the plant down trying to get the computers and robots to do at least as good of humans.

Yeah, it's pretty much just the Teslas people are lining up for. Still, over half a million people are plunking down a grand to get on the list. They'll dominate the EV market here for at least a few more years. The wait list (not necessarily wait time)will probably just get longer as more people see the model 3 on the road and realize what a great car it is.

Every auto production line gets shut down from time to time, especially in early production. It's only when Tesla does it that all the naysayers come out of the woodwork claiming the sky is falling. There are powerful forces opposing a quick transition to the EV. But Tesla has the right stuff to put them in the past.

 

[oilhammer]

Tesla is plagued with production problems, the "list" looks to me to be a nifty way to raise a bunch of capital to slow down the company's money bleeding problems, and does not necessarily mean all those people are actually wanting to buy them. Right now, there are a BUNCH of brand new 3s on the auction lots that were purchased by speculators... these people have no interest in the cars beyond trying to make a buck. They did the same thing with a bunch of other cars, too (the New Beetle was one of them).

And now the Elon Musk zealots have raised a bunch of cash to buy His Highness a new couch for his long days at work. Seriously. The guy just launched a car into space. The whole organization looks more and more like a ponzi scheme to me, and as someone else here said, he's one step away from a Bond villain.

I would have FAR more faith in a REAL car company designing, building, and selling an EV, but since there is not any strong urge to do so, they'll do it half hearted and/or right alongside the pump suckers that everyone else will actually buy.

Oh, and the "every man's Tesla", that was supposed to start at under $30k (already pretty pricey for me), quickly shot past that, and all the ones at auction are ones that sold new for nearly twice that. It will probably be another year before an entry level one is actually built and sold at an entry level price. But there are truckloads of them for sale all over for $55k+ that are barely used. So there is no need to "wait", you can have your choice of 100+ of them with less than 500 miles on them, LOL.