new Turbo & DPF gone -

[scottcane]

I was uncertain where to post this question as the official turbo thread is for notifications.

My situation is a 2012 Passat TDI. Engine warning lights on, taken to dealership almost 4 weeks ago. They replaced sensors, (no oil in turbo and spinning correctly) replaced with new turbo anyways, new oil lines, new DPF etc etc. No oil residue in the intercooler, but dealership cleaned it out anyways.
They took it for a test ride after it was back together. Seemed fine. Second tech took it out for a 15 mile test run when dash lights lit up, smoke out the rear tailpipe, and turbo was literally RED hot (cooked) when he returned to dealership. The new DPF was cooked as well. They are uncertain as to what caused this and a corporate VW engineer is coming in on Weds. to inspect the car. The dealership was told not to touch it until he arrives. This is not the dealerships first Passat turbo failure or repair.

I told the service manager that I travel a great deal and am uncertain about the reliability of THAT Passat at this point. I would hate to be 15 hours away in Boston, rush hour traffic, 15 below and have it fail again.

I also asked the service manager how does he know he fixed everything AFTER it was cooked in that fashion? He admitted they could not guarantee but would do their best to make all repairs that were needed.

Any potential or reports of financial compensation from VW, they re-purchase the vehicle, and discount a new vehicle? After spending hours reading various turbo posts, it sounds like once there is a problem, they continue. I believe this problem is well documented with VW corporate.

Maybe dump the Passat and obtain a new sportwagen?

Uncertain of my options through VWOA at this point.

 

[psd1]

I was uncertain where to post this question as the official turbo thread is for notifications.

My situation is a 2012 Passat TDI. Engine warning lights on, taken to dealership almost 4 weeks ago. They replaced sensors, (no oil in turbo and spinning correctly) replaced with new turbo anyways, new oil lines, new DPF etc etc. No oil residue in the intercooler, but dealership cleaned it out anyways.
They took it for a test ride after it was back together. Seemed fine. Second tech took it out for a 15 mile test run when dash lights lit up, smoke out the rear tailpipe, and turbo was literally RED hot (cooked) when he returned to dealership. The new DPF was cooked as well. They are uncertain as to what caused this and a corporate VW engineer is coming in on Weds. to inspect the car. The dealership was told not to touch it until he arrives. This is not the dealerships first Passat turbo failure or repair.

I told the service manager that I travel a great deal and am uncertain about the reliability of THAT Passat at this point. I would hate to be 15 hours away in Boston, rush hour traffic, 15 below and have it fail again.

I also asked the service manager how does he know he fixed everything AFTER it was cooked in that fashion? He admitted they could not guarantee but would do their best to make all repairs that were needed.

Any potential or reports of financial compensation from VW, they re-purchase the vehicle, and discount a new vehicle? After spending hours reading various turbo posts, it sounds like once there is a problem, they continue. I believe this problem is well documented with VW corporate.

Maybe dump the Passat and obtain a new sportwagen?

Uncertain of my options through VWOA at this point.

How many miles on the car? Why did they change a turbo and DPF if it wasn't bad? Seems to me like they have some culpability with the turbo and possibly faulty repair job. Communicate with the top dog in service, then move up the chain. Keep notes of who you talked to and their response(s) to you. If you don't like the answer start the convo with VWOA.

 

[scottcane]

Mileage: over 100K
I had two warning lights go off in my dash. The engine warning and the glow plug light. I also felt a loss of power. I limped it to the VW dealership 2.5 miles away.
At Dealership - they replaced a sensor. Then retested and found another sensor bad. They replaced that one and tested. They still had a code issue so they contacted VW tech. VWOA (?) informed the dealership to go ahead and replace the turbo, DPF, oil lines etc. and clean out the intercooler. Once that completed, the test drive happened and turbo and DPF cooked. Dealership uncertain as to the cause. My original turbo did not have any oil, debris inside, or loose vanes, but was replaced anyways per VWOA.

I am not certain why they ended up replacing the DPF except I had a discussion with them stating that I thought it ought to be replaced to ensure a proper repair prior to new turbo being installed.

I was hoping someone has been through this and VW purchased their vehicle from them.

 

[meerschm]

See if you can get a new golf wagon, with the understanding it will never go into the service department, which seems to be staffed by some level of incompetence.

you can always ask.

where is this splendid dealer service department?

 

[psd1]

Well, if VWOA directed the turbo swap then they own that. My guess is that they will want to throw another turbo at it and push it out the door.

If I were in your shoes I would push for a fair market value trade in and send the Passat down the road.

 

[nord]

Just some thoughts...

As you may be aware, I sent my '13 back to VW because of a massive turbo failure. VW treated me right and I got a new '14 virtually at no cost. The experience, though, taught me some important lessons. Since I wasn't there to observe the symptoms in your vehicle I can only offer some comments:

A "red hot" turbo indicates to me that lubrication probably isn't (or wasn't) the issue. Usually a lack of lubrication is followed quickly by failed bearings and seals. These, in turn, cause massive smoke and usually the turbo shaft fails. This allows the vanes to contact the housing and things go downhill from there. The resulting damage usually contaminates the oil lines, the charge air tract, and the exhaust system. Most particularly the DPF but not confined entirely to just the DPF.

So back to the turbo. I suspect your turbo was unable to clear exhaust gasses properly. While it's possible that you have a fueling problem, I suspect otherwise. Unfortunately it's entirely possible that you now have damaged exhaust valves in addition to a cooked turbo because of the heat you described. In any case I tend to suspect that your dealer overlooked a blockage somewhere in the exhaust system. Whether pre or post DPF I can't say, but I believe you'll find an obstruction somewhere in the system. Bear in mind that catalysts could be an issue as could something downstream in the system. This to include a crushed exhaust pipe or even a faulty pollution control valve.

Your warranty has been extended to cover such a situation as you're aware. The question being whether you wish to keep the vehicle after a repair. Very frankly I'd always wonder if the "repair" covered everything that suffered damage.

If you decide to keep the car, then everything having to do with the exhaust and intake systems must be checked. This from the charge air tubing to the Intercooler and on to the head. Exhaust valves may have suffered as could pistons due to high temps. Then, of course, the entire exhaust system. In other words a very major overhaul at minimum.

My suggestion? Approach your dealer and VW politely and ask what they might be willing to do to place you in a new vehicle. Your dealer is going to make out well no matter what as VW will be paying and backing whatever needs to be done to your present vehicle. VW has both a reputation issue and a warranty problem which very well might cost them an entire power train. The number crunchers at corporate may ll see wisdom in transitioning you into a new vehicle under very favorable terms. If they make such an offer I'd take it in an instant.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Sounds like a classic case of improper diagnosis. Fortunately, things should move along nicely once the corporate technician arrives.

As for ridding yourself of the vehicle, your only option is to trade it in or sell it, as VW certainly won't be repurchasing a 2012 with 100,000+ miles.

 

[scottcane]

Update: I went back to the dealership yesterday afternoon. The VW "engineer" did not arrive to inspect my vehicle. Maybe he will be there today? The vehicle has not been touched since the failure of the turbo/DPF installed by the dealership.

With the service manager, I discussed having VW purchase my vehicle at over retail value and offering me substantial savings on a new Golf sportwagen explaining that I felt I was now forced to purchase another vehicle because of this apparent design flaw. I also emphasized to him that since I have been averaging 3000 miles a month, much of my driving 800+ miles away from home, that IF there was another failure, it would be while I was furthest from my home and in the dead of northeastern winter. Then he would be in a deplorable situation because I had previously informed him of my concerns opening up increased liability.

I implored him to be my advocate with VW to get this situation resolved. He understood. As stated previously, I like the dealership service department as I have been going to them for years with my various VW's.

I was hoping people on this board had experience with numbers offered by VW in situations such as this to help me base my proposal demands/request.

Previous poster: I agree...after cooking the turbo and DPF, what else has become weakened or failed in the engine or exhaust that will show up later? There is no way to predict. The service manager agreed with me when I discussed that with him.

I really want out of my Passat at this point. This car has been flawless prior to this problem and returning incredible fuel mileage.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I'm not sure if spinning up doom and gloom scenarios is necessary at this point. I would be very surprised if VW proper made any sort of offer to you other than a trade-in on a new vehicle.

I'm very curious to see what the VW engineer has to say whenever he or she shows up.

Is there any chance you can get them to tell you what the stored DTCs were?

 

[nord]

One more thought...

The VW tech will access the damage or potential damage to the vehicle. Even if only the turbo and exhaust system, the amount even at cost is not inconsiderable. His problem will be that he'll be aware of other potential damage that must be addressed.

I'm not suggesting that VW merely give you a new car. I am, however, suggesting that it might be in their best interest and yours to offer a replacement vehicle at considerable discount. Certainly I can't suggest the terms of such a deal but know that VW may be facing an almost five figure repair bill not counting the money already spent.

There are times when it's best to cut one's losses. VW knows the true cost of a new vehicle and may well look at the cost of a warranty repair already gone wrong and the cost to replace with a new unit. It would be reasonable to assume that your 100k miles won't be free but that's entirely expected and fair.

I'd politely ask both the district rep and your dealer for consideration in this matter. I'd share with them that I was aware of the potential problems and expenses associated with a correct and total repair of the present vehicle and ask if it might not be to the advantage of all concerned to permanently eliminate their liability in the matter. After all, at this point you have little to lose and VW potentially has a bag of very expensive of manure to deal with.

 

[scottcane]

The VW Engineer/Tech is suppose to be there this week verse last week.

The dealership is pulling off components like the manifold etc to take pictures and document everything. VW is planning to throw more parts at my car like a new exhaust manifold and other items once they figure out what went wrong. I met with the service manager on Friday and ended the discussion with having no confidence in my Passat after they attempt to fix it. Since I do frequently travel out of state, confidence is a greater concern. Stated I would prefer a buy out and discount towards a new vehicle. He has started the ball rolling with VW.

The unknown is whether or not this $10,000 (+/-?) fix will make this Passat a reliable longer term vehicle or not. How many sensors have been compromised but not throwing a code? No conclusive answer from them as they really do not know. They can only fix what they see is defective or shows up as a bad code. I am suspicious of the term "repair" in this situation because IF VW knew the problem & solution, they would have performed those repairs much earlier on customers vehicles saving them a ton of money.

Previously, my Passat has been a great vehicle!

 

[BPofMD]

What if they offer you a NEW engine instead of a buyout?

 

[nord]

Consider...

VW is going to be looking at their bottom line in this matter, and rightly so. You're going to be looking out for your best interests. Again, rightly so. In a perfect world theirs and yours will be the same. In any event the one party who won't lose is your dealer. Either way he'll smile all the way to the bank.

If VW for some reason insists on an engine replacement, I'd tend to not want the car back. This might be the time to sit down with your dealer and have an honest talk. The components will cost him nothing and he'll make money by doing the swap. I'd say that you might have a better than even shot at getting a very good deal on a replacement vehicle.

In my case this is exactly what happened. While I never knew the exact details, I'm sure that VW wanted my engine back for their own purposes. I shared with my dealer that I was uncomfortable with an engine replacement and continued ownership of the vehicle and he advocated for me. It went very smoothly.

Bottom line for me was a replacement car at virtually no cost. The dealer was paid to replace the engine on my '13 and then retailed it after the repair. How that went I have no idea nor do I care. VW shouldered the warranty issue and whatever expense (real expenses and not funny numbers) might have been involved in the replacement.

My guess is that as far as the expense of a car to car replacement, VW wasn't badly hurt. There's a lot of hidden margin involved in the manufacture and retailing of a vehicle. Somehow the numbers got juggled to the satisfaction of all. The dealer got a cake job for his service department and a virtually new vehicle to sell once the repair was complete, so he profited in the deal. VW would have had the same warranty issue and expense no matter what, so they actually made out about as well as could be expected and retained a happy customer at the same time.

Be polite. Sit down with management at your dealer. Ask that your dealer advocate for you. Don't expect miracles and don't expect a free ride. Do expect a bit of fairness and outreach on the part of your dealer and VW. Hopefully you'll come out of this and look back upon it as an unfortunate but overall good experience.

Make sure the both the dealer and VW know that this is how you'd like to see the outcome. Good words for VW and the dealer and a happy VW owner. With a bit of luck they'll see it the same way.

 

[scottcane]

"What if they offer you a NEW engine instead of a buyout? " : I think if this were a 1972 Camaro that would be acceptable. Since this is a newer, computer/multiple sensor controlled vehicle, that would not be acceptable. My understanding is that it is improbable they will find all the components that may have been compromised during this failure.

Update: The dealership's first thought is the Adblue injector valve failed causing the overheating of the turbo and other components. They are still taking pictures and waiting for VW engineer thoughts.

 

[scottcane]

I agree. I have had several discussions with the service manager and explained I needed him to be my advocate with VWOA. He seemed to understand a buyout of present vehicle and alternate vehicle replacement plus monies was my only interest at this point.

No word on engine replacement suggestions right now as they are still attempting to determine specific reason(s) for the initial failure. Presently, my Passat is not the only turbo failure on their dealership lot. Sadly, I suppose this is a good thing in my support.

Consider...

VW is going to be looking at their bottom line in this matter, and rightly so. You're going to be looking out for your best interests. Again, rightly so. In a perfect world theirs and yours will be the same. In any event the one party who won't lose is your dealer. Either way he'll smile all the way to the bank.

If VW for some reason insists on an engine replacement, I'd tend to not want the car back. This might be the time to sit down with your dealer and have an honest talk. The components will cost him nothing and he'll make money by doing the swap. I'd say that you might have a better than even shot at getting a very good deal on a replacement vehicle.

In my case this is exactly what happened. While I never knew the exact details, I'm sure that VW wanted my engine back for their own purposes. I shared with my dealer that I was uncomfortable with an engine replacement and continued ownership of the vehicle and he advocated for me. It went very smoothly.

Bottom line for me was a replacement car at virtually no cost. The dealer was paid to replace the engine on my '13 and then retailed it after the repair. How that went I have no idea nor do I care. VW shouldered the warranty issue and whatever expense (real expenses and not funny numbers) might have been involved in the replacement.

My guess is that as far as the expense of a car to car replacement, VW wasn't badly hurt. There's a lot of hidden margin involved in the manufacture and retailing of a vehicle. Somehow the numbers got juggled to the satisfaction of all. The dealer got a cake job for his service department and a virtually new vehicle to sell once the repair was complete, so he profited in the deal. VW would have had the same warranty issue and expense no matter what, so they actually made out about as well as could be expected and retained a happy customer at the same time.

Be polite. Sit down with management at your dealer. Ask that your dealer advocate for you. Don't expect miracles and don't expect a free ride. Do expect a bit of fairness and outreach on the part of your dealer and VW. Hopefully you'll come out of this and look back upon it as an unfortunate but overall good experience.

Make sure the both the dealer and VW know that this is how you'd like to see the outcome. Good words for VW and the dealer and a happy VW owner. With a bit of luck they'll see it the same way.

 

[Bobmws]

"What if they offer you a NEW engine instead of a buyout? " : I think if this were a 1972 Camaro that would be acceptable. Since this is a newer, computer/multiple sensor controlled vehicle, that would not be acceptable. My understanding is that it is improbable they will find all the components that may have been compromised during this failure.

Update: The dealership's first thought is the Adblue injector valve failed causing the overheating of the turbo and other components. They are still taking pictures and waiting for VW engineer thoughts.

This was a brand new turbo & DPF. Why would it be going through a regeneration after 15 miles?

 

[jjblbi]

Could this possibly be a stuck exhaust valve (near cats)? This would cause excessive back pressure and heat. There are known issues and I recently removed, cleaned and lubed mine.

 

[scottcane]

Update: received word from VWOA that there would be no "consideration" given under these circumstances.

More pictures and more testing before any new components are installed. Estimation is that we are looking at another 2 weeks at the dealership. Nobody appears to be able to offer any guarantee that other components have not been compromised.

Frustrating. Unfortunate for VW to take that stance. I will be in the market for two additional vehicles within the next 12 months. Might be 3 additional vehicles if I am forced to keep the current Passat.

"This was a brand new turbo & DPF. Why would it be going through a regeneration after 15 miles?" - I have no idea if it went through a cycle or not as only the service technicians at the dealership drove the vehicle when failure happened again.

"Could this possibly be a stuck exhaust valve (near cats)? This would cause excessive back pressure and heat." I can mention this.

The people at the dealership level have been very responsive and interested in determining exactly what caused the first and second failure. I have always been pleased with this VW service department.

This is not their first Passat turbo failure nor will it be their last.

 

[tdiatlast]

"What if they offer you a NEW engine instead of a buyout? " : I think if this were a 1972 Camaro that would be acceptable. Since this is a newer, computer/multiple sensor controlled vehicle, that would not be acceptable. My understanding is that it is improbable they will find all the components that may have been compromised during this failure.

Update: The dealership's first thought is the Adblue injector valve failed causing the overheating of the turbo and other components. They are still taking pictures and waiting for VW engineer thoughts.

Huh??? I don't understand. Are there others here that would dump this dealership as quickly as possible and run away?

The OP's experience here is scary, in spite of all the sage advice from several.

 

[JazzBeBop]

@scottcane: Well, the only thing I have to offer from my experience is when my early (green dash lights, not blue and red) 1998 1.8 turbo (gas) B5 Passat had 99,600 miles on it, the engine lights flashed twice out of the blue & the all the gauges went dead while I was on the highway. Fortunately, the car was under VW's 100K mile powertrain warranty because it was considered new tech of the time. The culprit was an idle tensioning arm that had play and allowed the timing chain to jump. I didn't know this when I took it in. Fortunately, the dealership was literally on the other side of the highway, so they hauled it for free. My biggest surprise was when I called about five days later and the service rep told me that, " Yeah, we're working on it, but we're waiting on the new engine to arrive from Germany." I responded with, "I didn't ok repairs on it, only checking the car." He said, "Don't worry. It's all under the 100K mile warranty and VW would pay for parts and service, but you're lucky you were not over 100K miles." I think that's been my best AND worst experience with VW all within 30 seconds. Ever since then, VWoA has gone to 3 years/36k mile bumper to bumper factory warranty and 5 year/60K mile powertrain

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I'd love to see a complete scan of this vehicle and all of its modules. Red hot turbo and smoke out the back after a 15 minute drive to me would indicate a sticking fuel injector that is overfueling after TDC and superheating the exhaust. Also, the smoke from that long duration post-injection (leak) will make it through the DPF and out the back, as someone in another thread posted recently.

Just my $0.02 based on the information that we've been provided.

 

[scottcane]

It has almost been about 6 weeks. I am not certain I can obtain a complete scan of the vehicle VeeDubTDI but can ask.

Does anybody know whether once a turbo (housing) is taken to "bright red glowing" state of the housing whether the inner bearings etc are compromised? I am being told that the veins are spinning freely, so the turbo is ok per VW corporate. I am of the belief that the turbo was not designed to operate at those temperatures and the (new) turbo itself is negatively compromised (life span). I understand that the manifold and exhaust from the turbo can turn red under heavy boost BUT the turbo itself?

Anybody disagree as I am not a turbo expert?

 

[TDIEQNY]

The turbo turning cherry red may mean nothing or it could mean something. Not the answer you want to hear but is the case.

And that "something" may take time to develop down the road.

As long as the work and the part is being warranty'd, I would'nt over-analyze it too much.

6 weeks is a fairly long time to be without your car. I'd start barking louder to VWOA to get it completed and to get you back on the road.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

The turbo will turn red any time it is regenerating or very high load. You can look up a color to temperature comparison online.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

6 weeks in the shop is unacceptable. Time to start applying more pressure to them.

 

[scottcane]

Pretty amazing almost 7 weeks in the shop .... VW engineers re-re-looked at it yesterday. No word on results.

 

[senez]

Alrighty, so two months without a car that I'm assuming you're making payments on is pretty absurd.

I hope you're not just twiddling your thumbs at this point and are applying pressure to VWoA.

 

[Itzed]

I might have missed it, but I didn't see mention of what kind of warranty you have that is taking care of this on a car that has over 100K miles?

 

[NSTDI]

Do you have a free loaner?I would be making a god awful amount of noise if my car was in the shop for 6 weeks?

Have they said why it is taking this long? Get on the phone to Customer Care.

Don

 

[r11]

Hmmm ... owners worst nightmare aint it . Mine is approaching 70K USM.

Yeah, we mostly read about serious problems here, folx tend not to post much about worry-free experiences.

Still, I ordered a jug of diesel-kleen. For JIC .