New products for B4 or why don't we have this?

john.jackson9213

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Location
Miramar, Ca. (Think Top Gun)
TDI
1996 B4V
We all complain about cheap C.R.A.P. parts and say we "wish" decent parts were available.

Recently, one member has responded by offering a billet aluminum coolant flange to replace the cheap, plastic coolant flange many of us have replaced more than one time.

To me, this is a great chance to see how many of us vote with our $$ to buy a quality made custom part or how many of us just stick with the C.R.A.P. because they are cheap.

I am in with my $$ for this part simply to support quality parts over C.R.A.P.

Anyone else have thought about paying the price for quality?
 

GTiTDi

TDIClub Enthusiast, Macht Schnell! Vendor , w/Busi
Joined
Oct 18, 2010
Location
3 Spruce st Wareham, gateway to Cape Cod Massachus
TDI
'91 GTI CJAA swap,'02 Jetta wagon ALH swap, '03 GTI 1.8T rally car, '03 Sprinter 3500
There is more than enough market here to justify farming out the production to someone who can deal with volume and get the price down rather than a handful of us doing a group buy...
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
Long time Poster, recent lurker.
Now that the salvage is underway, I can comment on this.
If the choochlyman is interested in saving his own vehicles demise, then we have someone who has skin in the game. These are items that he may or may not have noticed on his own b4. I guess the issue is always pricepoint John. But I'll play the game anyways to get the ball rolling.
Here is a list of items that I think the 18 year old cars could consider wear items.
Some of them would be made of rubber and could cause a problem unless he has ways of creating them.
My list.
Coolant Flange check
CCVDrain plate check
CCV grommets that actually seal and don't let oil dribble all over the valve cover>IM>head (this one I actually require, as my ccv puck is being used for blowby removal)
Window regulator gear that isn't ground down to hell making the gears replaceable on the regulator so each arm doesn't need to be refurbed and mailed making it cost prohibitive
B4V rear hatch release I know you horde as many as you can find John, I've done the same. If he could make the swing arm pivot in a way that didn't pop it out of the hinge, or make the arm wider so it contacted better, that would be amazing. I've broken enough trying to manipulate them to open the rear hatch.
That's all I got for now.
 

Bob S.

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Location
Central MD.
TDI
A B4V, some ALHs & BRMs
I already voted. CCV flange sitting just behind me on the shelf & PMed order for the coolant flange. As the other parts become available, I will continue to support.
 

TDIDaveNH

Left Lane Coal Roller at Large
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
North Conway, NH
TDI
'97 Passat x2
I thought Amazon had some window regulators at some point available from an aftermarket supplier not too long ago? Anyway that one is easy, I've thought about it...this would require a wire EDM machine to make replacement gear arches that could then get heat treated to a hardness much greater than the OEM, perhaps made from a slightly thicker material and then welded into place on the existing scissor mech after the entire section of old teeth have been machined out of the way.

This would not be something you could just buy and weld on, but a fixture would have to be made to hold the scissor mech to accommodate the removal of ALL of the old teeth, good or not on at least a 2 axis CNC miller to produce a nice machined arch in the arm the resulting area would precisely locate the replacement teeth and also serve as a welding fixture too.

A testing rig would also have to be made from a door to test the fix in lifting a window, but have as much stuff cut away as possible to speed the process of getting the mech into and out of the door X2 for driver and passenger door.

Whoever had the fixture could be the fix-it guy and someone else could just manufacture the replacement gear arches, ship them to fix-it guy and they have a collection of 10 cores for the driver and say 5 for the passenger from which good units were made then sold on an exchange basis only. Kind of like what (I can't think of his name right now) does with the B4 clusters, he's pretty much 'the man' for those.

Another part that breaks on the rear door window mechs is a little red plastic part that lends itself well to being produced in aluminum using only a lathe.
 

ketchupshirt88

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Location
waupaca, WI
TDI
1996 B4 (red death), 1997 B4V (black death)
ive got some ccv plates myself. that way i never need to worry about that plastic pipe breaking at the flange once ive repaired it once.

when i have to work on "the red death" i prefer repairing things in a way that makes it easier to fix (non proprietary/common hardware store parts) the next time it breaks or preventing breakage if possible by using more robust hardware/parts. i also re-route things that don't commonly fail so i can more easily get at things that do... etc etc

i like common fittings and hoses and hardware i can get at the local farm store. these AHU/1Z motors are only a step or 2 up from old diesel tractor engines so i figure if it holds up to abuse on the farm, it will hold up to abuse on the road.

im the kind of guy that buys stainless nuts and bolts at double the price when i replace ones that were heavily rusted or broke upon removal due to corrosion.
 

thechoochlyman

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2015
Location
Campbellsville, Kentucky
TDI
97 Passat
There is more than enough market here to justify farming out the production to someone who can deal with volume and get the price down rather than a handful of us doing a group buy...
Feel free to contact a machine shop of your choice and get another quote.

If the choochlyman is interested in saving his own vehicles demise, then we have someone who has skin in the game. These are items that he may or may not have noticed on his own b4.
^ This exactly. The coolant flange wasn't my idea, but I went along with it because I can see the utility of it.

I thought Amazon had some window regulators at some point available from an aftermarket supplier not too long ago? Anyway that one is easy, I've thought about it...this would require a wire EDM machine to make replacement gear arches that could then get heat treated to a hardness much greater than the OEM, perhaps made from a slightly thicker material and then welded into place on the existing scissor mech after the entire section of old teeth have been machined out of the way.

Another part that breaks on the rear door window mechs is a little red plastic part that lends itself well to being produced in aluminum using only a lathe.
You're right on with the wire EDM. Only thing I would do differently is make the entire arch assembly (circled in red) instead of trying to cut and weld a new component - or machine away old gear teeth. You could cut the old welds loose and replace the press-fit rod in the center with a bolt. Another thing I'd be concerned with is making a substantially harder plate. Right now the ring gear wears, with a hardness of about 30 Rockwell. But with harder teeth it would cause the motor gear to wear - and at a faster rate because of the fewer teeth. I'd say it would cost about $200 to make each regulator gear, assuming a blueprint was already available (perhaps less in bulk, and once machine time is figured out exactly). Then you would have to factor in shipping, installation, and core charges for whoever did the work. All in all, it sounds like an expensive option that would probably be viable only when all other options are completely exhausted. I'd love to do the work, but I don't think people will be jumping up and down to buy one.



Got a pic of the little red plastic part? That could be an inexpensive item to make.
 

TDIDaveNH

Left Lane Coal Roller at Large
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
North Conway, NH
TDI
'97 Passat x2
All great points, It's been a while since I looked at one and thought the gears were on a much bigger part. Had though about the distortion welding would do and it's not the best route to take. Doing the whole thing is the ticket, even in a stack of multiples in the wire machine. Yeah, $200 would buy a nice collection of good units from junk yards which is what most people do to have as spares on top of spares.

I have not had to deal with window issues but others have. This is why I keep my AC system on it's game, which now is really the best fix the B4 folks have- just don't even use the thing, lol.

Also another issue that pops up with these regulators is the formed boss that supports the gear shaft end cracks and even bends towards the camera in your picture. Another thought on the hardness issue, perhaps the hardness could be kept the same but the thickness increases slightly?
 

thechoochlyman

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2015
Location
Campbellsville, Kentucky
TDI
97 Passat
All great points, It's been a while since I looked at one and thought the gears were on a much bigger part. Had though about the distortion welding would do and it's not the best route to take. Doing the whole thing is the ticket, even in a stack of multiples in the wire machine. Yeah, $200 would buy a nice collection of good units from junk yards which is what most people do to have as spares on top of spares.

I have not had to deal with window issues but others have. This is why I keep my AC system on it's game, which now is really the best fix the B4 folks have- just don't even use the thing, lol.

Also another issue that pops up with these regulators is the formed boss that supports the gear shaft end cracks and even bends towards the camera in your picture. Another thought on the hardness issue, perhaps the hardness could be kept the same but the thickness increases slightly?
Yes, hopefully if this part ever came to fruition multiples could easily be cut at the same time. That would undoubtedly lower the final cost.

The formed boss problem sounds like something that could easily be addressed with a TIG welder.

The thickness could probably be increased a bit, but not enough to add much life. Increase it too much and it will throw off the clearances of the whole assembly. I'd also need to pull the motor off and see how wide the actual gear is. But since the thickness is determined by what size stock is used in the wire, it would be no trouble to try something thicker and see what happens.
 

TDIDaveNH

Left Lane Coal Roller at Large
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
North Conway, NH
TDI
'97 Passat x2
Even if a thicker part were out of the question, they've lasted a while and how much longer will these cars be around?
 

Yblocker

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Location
Oakland, CA
TDI
1997 Passat
As far as the regulator goes, I recently found one in a wrecking yard from a 1989 Passat. The motor and connector are different but the later motor can be swapped over directly. The regulator mechanism is identical. I don't know the whole range of years that these cars used that regulator style, but it's pretty wide.
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
...how much longer will these cars be around?
Forever if I can keep ahead of the rust.

The regulators are available on Amazon, I have two sitting at the house now waiting to go in.

If the teeth are stronger, Charlie is right saying the motor will wear, and the last I knew they are NLA.

I've welded them up before and ground them down with good success for anyone looking for a cheap way out.








But the boss does flex and crack, which is something to check and fix as well.






It may not be perfect but it works.
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
I like the flange, but I like the engine cover too, and since the two are not compatible I'll likely look for another alternative to the weak link plastic flange. At least one that allows me to keep the cover.

Steve
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
omg, of course you would choose the useless engine cover over a ****ty plastic flange :rolleyes:
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
cape cod, ma
TDI
82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
@john.jackson - will be buying a number of chochly's items. they all look good to me, all things i've wanted and never have seen for a good price. he's getting my dollars, no need for a group buy, if it's not plastic and it fits, buy it :)
 

TDIDaveNH

Left Lane Coal Roller at Large
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
North Conway, NH
TDI
'97 Passat x2
I call the engine cover a catastrophe enabler, all mine come off and go away, lol. Also heard it referred to as a customer deflector by a VW tech.

Looking at the regulator, it would not be hard to do. I would avoid trying to weld a whole piece onto where it is currently spot welded around the pin as well as cutting the pin in favor of a bolt. It's all best left alone. Doing so would only make it so you'd have to build a jig to precisely locate the gear arch relative to the arm it's spot welded to. I'd make the piece to be welded on right where both cuts would go:


Also a plastic disc would have to be made to replace the worn one that is designed to rotate against the inside of the arc under the circle thingee. That could stand an upgrade in material without too much detriment to function.

I think a pattern of where to cut would be helpful too for those that could do their own welding/grind/sanding. Just my $.02 on how I'd do it.
 
Last edited:

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
omg, of course you would choose the useless engine cover over a ****ty plastic flange :rolleyes:
I can appreciate that you like the flange, I do too, but let's not start chastising people (again) for something that's really none of your business.

Steve
 

john.jackson9213

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Location
Miramar, Ca. (Think Top Gun)
TDI
1996 B4V
@john.jackson - will be buying a number of chochly's items. they all look good to me, all things i've wanted and never have seen for a good price. he's getting my dollars, no need for a group buy, if it's not plastic and it fits, buy it :)
That is the real question I was trying to ask in this thread.

We have a guy who responded to a "need" expressed here for an improved product. It looks functional and durable, but costs 25 times more than the C.R.A.P. piece.

So far we have orders for 4 pieces. But it is only a short time, I am reasonably sure it will get better. Just not sure how much better it will get. The OP said he hoped for a run of 12 pieces. I can wait on delivery till he gets the order for a dozen.
 

Bob S.

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Location
Central MD.
TDI
A B4V, some ALHs & BRMs
I can wait for a bit, but am getting very slight seepage at current plastic one, so I know my need is on the horizon.

On a different thread, Windex offered an aluminum T-stat housing to Charlie as a sample to use for replication purposes. I would also be interested in that. To me, the less plastic & crap in those component systems, the happier I am.
 

thechoochlyman

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2015
Location
Campbellsville, Kentucky
TDI
97 Passat
So far we have orders for 4 pieces. But it is only a short time, I am reasonably sure it will get better. Just not sure how much better it will get. The OP said he hoped for a run of 12 pieces. I can wait on delivery till he gets the order for a dozen.
I'm up to about six now, I'll probably order material for a dozen around the 10 mark. If I can sell that many, I'm sure I'll at least two more.

I can wait for a bit, but am getting very slight seepage at current plastic one, so I know my need is on the horizon.

On a different thread, Windex offered an aluminum T-stat housing to Charlie as a sample to use for replication purposes. I would also be interested in that. To me, the less plastic & crap in those component systems, the happier I am.
I'm interested in pursuing that. Just waiting for some pics at the moment. Undoubtedly, that will be a much less complicated and expensive piece to make.
 

thechoochlyman

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2015
Location
Campbellsville, Kentucky
TDI
97 Passat
I like the flange, but I like the engine cover too, and since the two are not compatible I'll likely look for another alternative to the weak link plastic flange. At least one that allows me to keep the cover.

Steve
There's probably some way to make it work. I'm personally just not interested enough to try. :rolleyes:
 

TDIDaveNH

Left Lane Coal Roller at Large
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
North Conway, NH
TDI
'97 Passat x2
I'm interested in pursuing that. Just waiting for some pics at the moment. Undoubtedly, that will be a much less complicated and expensive piece to make.
Let's hope so....Here you go:











I would have taken it apart but it was probably last in two pieces in Brussels a long time ago. It's quite a durable piece, as long as it's genuine VW.
 
Last edited:

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
I would have taken it apart but it was probably last in two pieces in Brussels a long time ago. It's quite a durable piece, as long as it's genuine VW.
Yes, as long as you don't disturb it.

I've noticed on very old ones that the thermostat flange tends to warp at the mid-point between the two mounting holes. I haven't had one leak yet but I've seen them warp about 1/16" of an inch or better.

Steve
 

thechoochlyman

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2015
Location
Campbellsville, Kentucky
TDI
97 Passat
Ok, now that the coolant flange is out, I feel free to get back to the drawing board.

Lower flange - What does the connecting hose look like? Would a billet replacement have to be in two pieces like this one? How could this design be simplified for cost? I can't recall if it's already been posted elsewhere, but some pics of the flange attached to the engine would be handy, preferably with the hose. I seem to also recall seeing a stock cast aluminum elbow being used prior to the plastic one.

 

ketchupshirt88

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Location
waupaca, WI
TDI
1996 B4 (red death), 1997 B4V (black death)
yup the MK1 had an aluminum flange before the plastic one was made

black forest had them but lists them as "temporarily unavailable" now
http://store.blackforestindustries.com/mk8vallothho.html

they also show up on ebay from time to time.

i feel like that wouldnt be a fun time to machine, but thats not my field

im a laser/punch press guy, so all my parts are flat... lol
 

TDIDaveNH

Left Lane Coal Roller at Large
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
North Conway, NH
TDI
'97 Passat x2
The Bentley refers to this disconnect-able section as where coolant is most easily drained from the system. In practice however and after many years of being together the sections are very difficult to get apart and once separated never seem to seal with the same level of for lack of a better word, confidence. In a billet design, these sections could be made as one as long as there was some provision for draining coolant between the t-stat housing and the 90 degree bend, something such as a downward facing threaded port with straight threads using a cap such as this
or something along those lines. Space around the t-stat dome is tight as well due to PS pump bracket proximity. There is also a thread relief in the flange to accommodate the protrusion of the outboard PS pump bracket bolt though the engine block threaded padeye. Not much space to take design liberties close to the water pump housing at all. I'll try for some pictures today
 
Top