New Member, New [to me] TDi B4

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
She's in rough condition, fellas... take it easy on me.







As of the time of this post, the rears are actually a pair of Orlandos I picked up as part of a set, but the tires are crap and I left the snows on the front for now.

Planned and upcoming work includes:
  • 5 lug swap
  • MK3 coilover set [should net 2'' drop with full spring preload]
  • basic maintenance/cleaning [lots of it]
  • full belly pan
  • cat delete, downpipe and full exhaust
  • 5th injector and cat temp sensor delete
  • probably some additional stuff I'm forgetting...

Moreover, I have a few questions.

Other than the obvious, are there any real benefits to installing a lift pump when I'm not really looking for much in the line of additional power?

Exhaust pipe sizing... I'm thinking 2.5'', cat delete, straight pipe is probably more than enough flow for a measly 90 horsepower, and should support any power level I'd be looking for in the future as well..

I feel like I read in the brake swapping FAQ somewhere on the internet that when doing the rears, it's really just a matter of bolting on the rear discs when you already have rear discs [the Passat has them] to get 5 lug, and that brake size and calipers are the same between VR6 [GLX] and TDi models... so using the Passat's rear calipers or the Jetta's [donor car] won't really matter, right?

...I think that's all for now. I think. Probably.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Your plans aren't bad, but they overlook more pressing needs. It would appear that this car has been neglected, and to get it back to anywhere near good running condition you probably have a lot of work to do. Here are some highlights:

  • Timing belt and water pump replacement
  • Intake cleaning
  • Vacuum line replacement
  • Make sure exhaust isn't leaking and fix if so
  • All new fluids (including brakes)
  • Replace control arm and rear axle bushings
  • Insect and replace tie rods or ends and ball joints if needed
  • Check shift linkage for wear and replace needed components
And you have to figure out how to get ahead of the rust. These cars do rust, and it's important to address any under the car and around the windshield and sunroof. Issues there can compromise the car's structural integrity.



Once you do that stuff you could look at suspension and 5-lug swaps. I'm not sure you A3 coils will work on a B4 since the cars weights and suspension mounting points are different, but if that's what you want go for it. The 5 lug conversion is popular here, but I've never seen the benefit. However, I don't tend to use my brakes much.


Last year I bought a B4 that had been well maintained since new and I still had a lot of work to do on it. However, once done the car has been efficient, reliable, and fun to drive. It's worth it.
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
The brakes are being addressed /with/ the 5 lug swap lol I'm doing it because I have a good set of VR6 parts that need to be used and the existing parts are fighting me every step of the way. I'd rather upgrade than try to rebuild existing parts, and it's really hard to find 16'' steel rims in 4x100, too [what I want]

The coilover kit I have is much heavier than stock parts, I originally had them on my Golf II and they rode hard as hell... on the MK3 Jetta they were somewhat more calm, but still pretty stiff unless at full preload, and the Passat is even heavier than the Jetta was so hopefully they'll run nicely without being bouncy.

The control arms are addressed by the VR6 swap, the rear bushings are checked and good so far, there is some rust that needs to be addressed but that'll get cleaned up when I get under the car to set up mount points for the belly pan and measure for the exhaust change.

Shift linkage is fairly loose, being replaced with O2J shifter and cables eventually, works OK for now, just has a bit of slop. Can't hit reverse unintentionally yet though lol

I do need to flush and clean the coolant system, the coolant is brown, and the timing belt was changed before the car was parked and looks decent, but I'll be changing it again come spring after I powerwash under the hood [booster hose loose while running = oil spewing everywhere]
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
I went ahead and ordered all the vac lines from Mc Master as well as getting a new dipstick boot also... they should all be here Fridayish.
 

Mcgink

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
South of Boston MA
TDI
I-Red,"The Passat formerly known as Harlequin" 97 B4, a non VW GTDI too
She's in rough condition, fellas... take it easy on me.
Maybe the pictures don't do it justice. It's hard to evaluate a car before clean-up. How bad is the rust under it, around the windshield etc? Doors, fenders, and other bolt on replaceable stuff isn't really a big deal. Just curious if you considered finding a decent VR6 shell and swapping the drivetrain instead of all of the swaps and maint. in addition to the body restoration on this one?
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
I had thought about finding a better shell, but this one isn't really all that bad.

There's only a little rust underneath, behind the control arm mount on the driver's side [hockey puck mount] that'll get taken care of when i get a chance. The windshield has some bubbling around it, but no serious rot yet.

Both doors need to be replaced on the pass side, as well as the front end sheet metal [I hit a deer a couple weeks ago on the way to work from lunch break].

For me, it's much harder to find the gumption to replace an engine and transmission than to do simple bolt-on suspension work, especially when some or all of those parts need to be replaced anyway.

In addition, the clean VR6 chassis I'll be getting soonish is a wagon, and I never /really/ liked the B3/B4 Passat chassis anyway, but the sedan is miles better than the wagon to me, so I'll hang onto this one for awhile, at least till I get my Festiva swap done and my F250 lowered and driving, then I'll probably sell the TDi on at a profit and move on from it.
 

Mcgink

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
South of Boston MA
TDI
I-Red,"The Passat formerly known as Harlequin" 97 B4, a non VW GTDI too
the clean VR6 chassis I'll be getting soonish is a wagon, and I never /really/ liked the B3/B4 Passat chassis anyway, but the sedan is miles better than the wagon to me, so I'll hang onto this one for awhile, at least till I get my Festiva swap done and my F250 lowered and driving, then I'll probably sell the TDi on at a profit and move on from it.
A swap would be no small job for sure. I wasn't a big fan of wagons either till I had one. Mine was handy for making runs to get lumber or mulch etc since I have no truck. The extra space was also great for road-trips.
IMO... If you'll only be in it for the short term, A B4V VR6 in good overall condition with a TDI swap "Done Right" Will fetch more money in resale all day long. Condition and maint. rules either way but the wagons fetch more $$ every day of the week.
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
Not around here, wagons hardly sell near me. There's been a guy with a super clean B4V with FK lights and full maintenance records and under 150k on it and it's been sitting for the whole year because he can't get an offer over $800 on it.

The one I'm getting needs a speed sensor and I'm getting it for $500 with 140k on it and full maintenance. Old people car from MD. Chances are, I'm gonna use it for parts because it won't sell for anything worth my time. The VR will go in my Jetta GLX, the doors and suspension/brakes will go on the TDi, along with the whole front end and interior as I have the time, with obvious exceptions to the pieces that just ain't gonna fit in a sedan.

I also have a '86 F250 6.9IDI 5 speed that won't have a lick of diesel fuel in it ever once I get it slammed and put it on the road. I've been running International engines on used motor oil ever since I bought my first one at 20 years old... they love the stuff, and I've never so much as had to replace an injection pump on one at a shorter interval than common service.

Besides, /any/ resale on the TDi will be more money than I have into it. I have already had offers of $1000 on it just because it's running and drivable [despite the brakes being crap], and that's with the grille missing and a broken headlight [deer damage] and needing sheet metal, two door handles not working and a rear window that doesn't go down.
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
SO my batt light came on the other day... it was intermittent, but now it's steady - and the battery isn't dying. I was playing around a bit checking things out for that and decided to move on to changing my headlight [deer damage]. Finished that up and remembered that I've been spraying oil everywhere under the hood for about 2 weeks now. I assumed it was from the dipstick tube since that seems to be where it accumulated the most, which would indicate a clogged CCV or leaking vacuum line, so I started checking the CCV first, since it's pretty easy to get out and clean. While removing the lower crankcase line from the breather/filter housing, I noticed it was moving a bit more than it really should have been... took a look, and sure enough, the plastic flange was broken in about 18 places and completely disconnected from the block, obviously the source of my oil... leak.

Supposedly the VR6 engine uses the same tube, so I'm gonna go check that out and see if it has it, if not, I guess I'll be ordering a $23 piece of plastic.

Once that's done, I'll be doing vacuum stuff... there's a line that runs over to the driver's side behind the headlight, appears to be a vacuum switch of some sort... anyone have a clue what that's for? My Bentley hasn't come in yet and I don't think there's a vacuum system diagram under the hood that's readable.
 

Mcgink

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
South of Boston MA
TDI
I-Red,"The Passat formerly known as Harlequin" 97 B4, a non VW GTDI too
Vac line/solenoid behind the DS headlight is for the recirculate function of the HVAC
 

crankme69

Veteran Member
Joined
May 16, 2011
Location
Ill.
TDI
1996 Passat
It's great to read about someone having positive results running used motor oil.

All that I ever read about on the net is negative replies from most that have never tried it but they are all certain the sky will cave in if you do...not to mention the friggin replies from the tree huggers arrrrg!

I had an old NA 7.3 that ran anything I had the balls to pour in it, always kept an extra fuel filter with me, for backup.

Good luck with your project.
 
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_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
It's great to read about someone having positive results running used motor oil.

All that I ever read about on the net is negative replies from most that have never tried it but they are all certain the sky will cave in if you do...not to mention the friggin replies from the tree huggers arrrrg!

I had an old NA 7.3 that ran anything I had the balls to pour in it, always kept an extra fuel filter with me, for backup.

Good luck with your project.
On the odd chance that I get air in the system and run the pump dry... I just fill the fuel filter up with some ATF or PS fluid and start it on ether after I disconnect the glow plugs lol

I probably won't run the motor oil in the TDi unless I can positively verify that it's been 'fuged and has nothing in the micron range for suspended particles. I'm not terribly concerned about colloidal or solute particles because even diesel fuel contains those.

Still, even at the 38-40 MPG I'm currently getting, I see not much need for cheaper fuel... I fill up about once or twice a month at $70-$80, much better places to save money without potentially risking an engine.

Also - the 'tree hugger' comment... I sort of /am/ one of those tree huggers. I'm just not unrealistic. When you take your used oil to collection stations, they sell it in bulk to the highest bidder. Less than 10% of oil gets recycled back into lubricant oils because the process is expensive and not totally reliable. The rest of it tends to be used as 'bunker fuel' in heavy oil engines such as those on cruise liners and freight/charter ships.

I'm saving the extra transportation steps if I burn it directly.
 

crankme69

Veteran Member
Joined
May 16, 2011
Location
Ill.
TDI
1996 Passat
LOL good comment on huggers though I still think folks making decisions that impact a nation for the good of the environment have their heads up their arse.

I don't liter nor do I think mother nature should be taken for granted.

I witnessed the company I work for fight with these arseholes to make a $10 billion dollar investment & after that battle I better understand why big business's are choosing to make investments somewhere other than the USA...dam shame!
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi


There used to be a hose running between the two red circles. Fixed the oil spray issue using stock block plate and a cap from a can of 'Start ya bastard' (actual brand name, not actually the brand I used) and a stock hose clamp. Later, Ill be plumbing a crankcase evac system and catch can.

No progress on vac lines as yet, nor brakes/suspension upgrades.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Welcome aboard. Looks like you're well on your way to fixing that thing up. :cool:
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
Yeah, trying... it's slow going due to financial and laziness constraints.

I actually really do like the car... I'm undecided whether I'll keep it after the other projects are finished or not, but I'm leaning toward keeping it, at least for a 'spare' car.

Believe it or not, my Festivae are comfortable enough to haul 2-3 adults on a long trip and roomy enough to accomodate a good bit of gear.

It's bigger on the inside. [Bonus points if you 'get it'.]
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
Well, the alt light has been on for about the last 6 days, the battey finally died today.. I charged it up at work so I could get home and get around tomorrow(today), amd will toss on the alt from the VR6 I blew up, which apparently is an upgrade. Ill also be wiring the field switching wire on a relay with manual activation and brake light activation, so that the alt can only charge during braking or when the manual switch is turned on.
 

TonyJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 15, 2005
Location
Tucson, Az
TDI
'15 Jetta TDI SE / '06 Jetta TDI DSG Pkg0 / '96 Passat TDI
Check the vr6 alt. I'll bet its a 90A unit, where as the TDI alt is 120A. The 90A will work...it may not recharge the battery enough on shorter commutes.

Having said that I do recall reading about some TDI cars that have 90A alts that replaced by the PO's. So yours may have a 90A that was previously replaced.

Tony
Sent from my e-diesel fleet
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
PN's -
028 903 025 S [0123 505 011] TDI
021 903 025 B [0123 510 005] VR6

Both show 14V > 120A, so it may not have been an upgrade but at least I don't have to borrow the battery charger at work again... lol

I changed my Alt out for a unit from my VR6 that I blew up, so now the battery light is off and she's charging again.

I didn't have a chance to wire in the manual charge and brake light circuits for the alt, I'll be doing that when I do some other wiring changes on the car, so that the alternator is only 'on' when either the brake lights are on, or the manual switch is closed. In addition, I'll be ordering a 13.6v DC/DC converter and a volt gauge so that I can monitor electrical system voltage and ensure proper electrical system operating voltage.

The theory and practice behind this is that it's inefficient to charge while attempting to accelerate, better to charge in 'bursts' while decelerating or otherwise 'wasting' fuel, such as when idling [it idles at like .10 gph... I don't bother shutting it down].
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
The 90A will work without a problem, but will take a little longer to recharge the battery. I know lots of people using it.

The 120A from the TDI charges at a lower RPM than the VR6 alternator but otherwise the capacity is the same.
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
Id have to see data charts verifying that, since the windings and main bodies of both alternators are the same in appearance. The only real differences could be the regulating/rectifier assemblies, amd the ECM's control software.
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
I will see what I can dig up, but it's been some years. The TDI doesn't rev as high as the gassers so the alternator has to produce the same output at a lower rpm.
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
Seems like a pulley change would be the culprit there. The alt pulleys appear the same size, VR6 has an extra rib. Maybe engine pulleys are different?
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
I'm going on general knowledge of alternators and motors... in order for one alternator to do that inherently, it would have to have differences in the winding. Anything else. would be control hardware or software, such as when the output winding is triggered by the excitation field, and how much voltage is fed to the rectifier, etc.
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi
Not saying that what you say is untrue, just that there's a reason for it, Id like to know what it is.
 

powerstrokeless

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Location
VA
TDI
B4V
TARDIS

Did a basement remodel a few months back- they asked me to install a Tardis door.
My kids love watching Dr. Who.
 

_Christ

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Location
Gillett, PA
TDI
1996 Passat TDi




Scored these, the clips I needed, and a pair of clean corner lamps at the yard. May also go back eventually and get both fenders and pass side doors, possibly also any good black interior pieces I can find, and the hood.

I won't be using the grille or emblems, I cleaned them in case anyone else needs them. Therre are a couple of the small tabs broken on the back, but the grille locks in perfectly fine. No damage to the emblem or circle trims except a small nick in the left side of the chrome. The VR6 emblem is worn nd will need refinished.
 
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