New camshaft, no codes but torsion value way out of range

wicklowtdi

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Just swapped a new colt stage 2 camshaft into my BRM using the mark & pray method (fairly confident the timing is right as I've owned the car for 15 years). The car starts up very well, runs extremely smoothly, but I was a bit disappointed by the throttle response. When checking the torsion value (which I've done before but years ago) it's jumping around anywhere between 15 & 60°KW. VCDS shows no codes.

The wiring from the ECU to the sensor shows 5V, 5V, and 0V. Resistance between pins 2 & 3 of the sensor is about 57K ohms; no continuity between pin 1 & the other two pins. Sender wheel appears to be fine. And the cam sprocket is pretty close to being centered on the pulley. Measuring block 51 indicates that the camshaft sensor is working. Any idea on what the issue could be?

 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
"I M&P'd the belt...

..any idea what the issue could be?"

Well I have one idea....

Seriously, the BRM is easily one of the simplest timing belts to do PROPERLY.... why???? Just why???
 

wicklowtdi

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"I M&P'd the belt...

..any idea what the issue could be?"

Well I have one idea....

Seriously, the BRM is easily one of the simplest timing belts to do PROPERLY.... why???? Just why???
Simple: when growing up in a different country, that was the method we used for decades because information and tools were simply not available. I marked the belt in three places on both the cam and the crank & verified with before and after photos. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, the only possibility of getting the timing incorrect is if my marks were misaligned or the original timing was incorrect?
 

burpod

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interesting to see an low idle, unless it's just a glitch from the snapshot and it's bouncing bad. must be a tune on there i would guess? pretty rare to see a lower idle. personally, i love ~800rpm idle assuming the rest of the car's hardware it is smooth. not always possible depending on mounts or pump/injector health and if tune is just right. i have done a number of cars where 800-850rpm is butter smooth tho. if it is, i prefer it lower.

doing the TB with the one simple lock-pin is so easy, i don't understand why one would go thru all the extra trouble of paint marks and problems
 

wicklowtdi

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Virginia
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interesting to see an low idle, unless it's just a glitch from the snapshot and it's bouncing bad. must be a tune on there i would guess? pretty rare to see a lower idle. personally, i love ~800rpm idle assuming the rest of the car's hardware it is smooth. not always possible depending on mounts or pump/injector health and if tune is just right. i have done a number of cars where 800-850rpm is butter smooth tho. if it is, i prefer it lower.

doing the TB with the one simple lock-pin is so easy, i don't understand why one would go thru all the extra trouble of paint marks and problems
Idle is 840, the second speed is from the camshaft sensor, which I believe is indicating that the sensor is working. No tune, and great idle. I just verified that my timing marks are correct, so everything is the exact same as it was before the new camshaft. Any thoughts about what else could cause the torsion value to be so far off?
 

Jbwoo

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15 GSW 06 Jetta BRM
Did you check the timing via VCDS before the cam? If not, it was off before you took it apart. A new belt will require the torsion to be adjusted. Adjust it and monitor via VCDS and move on with life.
 

burpod

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82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
afaik, the torsion value is showing the discrepancy between cam and crank sensors. if the sensors are reading correct, then it needs to be adjusted. i run my own BEW with +0.5
 

wicklowtdi

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Virginia
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Did you check the timing via VCDS before the cam? If not, it was off before you took it apart. A new belt will require the torsion to be adjusted. Adjust it and monitor via VCDS and move on with life.
I did not check it right before the change but have before a few years ago. Was running at 0.5. What’s really confusing me is that the value is jumping all over the place & with it going around 60, something is not right. Car appears to be running quite well. Weird throttle response might be a shift in the power band from a different cam profile.
 

wicklowtdi

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afaik, the torsion value is showing the discrepancy between cam and crank sensors. if the sensors are reading correct, then it needs to be adjusted. i run my own BEW with +0.5
That was my impression as well, but it’s already very close to center of the slot on the sprockets mechanical adjustment. It’s a weird one
 

Rx7145

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Bolts in the center of the slots is a good starting point but only if the crank and cam pulley are timed correctly together. Then fined tuned with the slots. I think you should verify with the timing tools that the engine is in TDC.
 

wicklowtdi

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Bolts in the center of the slots is a good starting point but only if the crank and cam pulley are timed correctly together. Then fined tuned with the slots. I think you should verify with the timing tools that the engine is in TDC.
That’s kind of where I’m at this point too. Also was wondering if the keyway on the colt cam is in a slightly different place than oem. If so, that’d have the same effect as the timing being off.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
So if you came from some other country where it's OK to marry a 10 year old girl, does that make it OK to do here???

I don't get why that has anything to do with being able to use the proper tools to set a timing belt. Very strange.
 

turbodieseldyke

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So if you came from some other country where it's OK to marry a 10 year old girl, does that make it OK to do here???
Those people are here now, so it's going to happen whether it's OK or not. We used to have a border patrol that didn't high-five the invaders after cutting holes in the fence for them.
 

wicklowtdi

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So if you came from some other country where it's OK to marry a 10 year old girl, does that make it OK to do here???

I don't get why that has anything to do with being able to use the proper tools to set a timing belt. Very strange.
You asked me why I did it the way I did and I answered you. Comparing that to child marriage is egregious, and remarkably immature.

If you’re able to provide a rational explanation on how timing could be off with my method considering the details I provided, I will concede.

For anyone else that’s reading this and interested in what’s causing the problem, I will provide an update when I figure out what’s going on. The car just went on a 200 mile test ride, performed very well, and got 51mpg per MFD.
 

braddies

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For anyone else that’s reading this and interested in what’s causing the problem, I will provide an update when I figure out what’s going on. The car just went on a 200 mile test ride, performed very well, and got 51mpg per MFD.
Awesome that it's running, still disappointed with the throttle response?
 

turbodieseldyke

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Have you considered just getting the tools to do it correctly? Chinese knockoffs are $20 or less. I'd hope it wouldn't make your forefathers roll over in their graves.
 

wicklowtdi

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Have you considered just getting the tools to do it correctly? Chinese knockoffs are $20 or less. I'd hope it wouldn't make your forefathers roll over in their graves.
Absolutely, but man honestly, not until there’s a logical explanation for how my timing could be out using the method I outlined.

I learned that lesson many years ago from repairing electronics; if youre taking a guess at what’s wrong rather than completely understanding the system, you’re very likely going down the wrong path.
 

burpod

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if torsion value is jumping a lot, i'd think it would be a sensor or electrical issue which im' sure you know. the simple lock tool just makes things easier. then it's just a matter of tweaking the cam gear after checking with vcds.
 

wicklowtdi

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Awesome that it's running, still disappointed with the throttle response?
Not after taking it on a nice highway trip. This was my first time switching to a different cam profile and I think what’s happened is it’s shifted the power band to a higher RPM. Quite nice when you’re in 5th gear doing 70 on the highway.
 

wicklowtdi

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if torsion value is jumping a lot, i'd think it would be a sensor or electrical issue which im' sure you know. the simple lock tool just makes things easier. then it's just a matter of tweaking the cam gear after checking with vcds.
Seems quite plausible, especially with how it ran after my roadtrip. And with other people’s reports about how the BRM likes to chafe wires.
 

Nuje

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The "paint marks" method will get you close, but obviously, not close enough. The old one you took off was stretched a little bit; the new one not.
The factory way of doing the change has you set the tension with the only other pulley that matters (camshaft) floating - so the tension is spread evenly. Put those two things together, and it's not surprising it's way off.

Like the others have said, I'd get it right (the right way, with the lock tools - again, cheap) to remove that as a possible contributing factor, then if torsion can't be set properly, start looking at other options.

Others have said the same thing I did; you can continue to say "not until I know why" but the amount of help here is going to be limited, not out of malice, but more out of "come on - help us help you". ;)
 

wicklowtdi

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I’ll definitely buy into following the correct procedure & using the tools as part of the process of elimination, especially when helping someone over a forum and not really knowing their experience level or what they have or haven’t done. Thanks for taking the time to write a good explanation; perhaps these are far more sensitive than what I’m used to.

I did reuse the old belt & my gut is telling me electrical, but I’ve definitely been wrong in the past. I think for only $50 worth of good tools (that’ll I’ll use again anyways), I’ll listen, and give a 100% definitive answer on whether this is a timing issue or not.
 

pedroYUL

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Did you break in the new cam, properly?
 

Will27

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How did you remove the cam sprocket hub from the old camshaft? Check for any damage to the sensor flags that face the cam sensor.
 

hutchman

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Not after taking it on a nice highway trip. This was my first time switching to a different cam profile and I think what’s happened is it’s shifted the power band to a higher RPM. Quite nice when you’re in 5th gear doing 70 on the highway.
Are you sure you got a cam for a BRM? I've gotten wrong parts before in boxes that had the right part number on the outside of the box. People just don't care these days.
 

hutchman

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I’ll definitely buy into following the correct procedure & using the tools as part of the process of elimination, especially when helping someone over a forum and not really knowing their experience level or what they have or haven’t done. Thanks for taking the time to write a good explanation; perhaps these are far more sensitive than what I’m used to.

I did reuse the old belt & my gut is telling me electrical, but I’ve definitely been wrong in the past. I think for only $50 worth of good tools (that’ll I’ll use again anyways), I’ll listen, and give a 100% definitive answer on whether this is a timing issue or not.
Dude, PM me where you are. I've got the BRM tools ... somewhere. I'd have to find them, haven't used them since I moved.
 

turbodieseldyke

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Are you sure you got a cam for a BRM? I've gotten wrong parts before in boxes that had the right part number on the outside of the box. People just don't care these days.
"Colt stage 2 BRM" is probably not the sort of thing that gets randomly shoved in the wrong box by Rock Auto or Amazon. I don't know how you could verify it, without mic'ing the lobes and calling the manufacturer.
 
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