New Cam break-in procedure with ZDDP.

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Courier,

If you are running the ALH cam, our opinion is that cam needs additional attention only when it is powered up...not stock. The advantage of using non- detergent,non- synthetic oil is partly price of the product, but also what happens with synthetics is, in a manner, prevention of break-in...

1. Detergent oils are attempting to remove the break-in additives you are trying to get into the metals.
2. There are friction reducers in the synthetics which prevent/delay the break-in process.

Although this thread is specific about cam break-in, we produce many complete engines. The break-in procedure becomes mandatory, as proper ring, main and rod bearing seating is critical. Using proper break-in oils protect the engine at initial startup. The procedure equates to quicker seating and low oil consumption.

Heck, we had a discussion some while back about reusing rings and we stated our reasons for not risking a job like that. Our techniques are time-tested to eliminate potential of failure, not create it! Professionalism is to create an environment of repeatable success. We will continue that approach.
 

Yblocker

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Location
Oakland, CA
TDI
1997 Passat
I think also the procedure may need to be varied depending on the scenario. I recently completed an overhaul with standard bore and used pistons but a new camshaft and lifters. After a very brief leak check and coolant top off, I immediately drove the car about 30 miles, moderately hard under some healthy boost up some steep mile long grades we have around here. I did not sit in the driveway breaking in the new cam at 2,000 unloaded rpm for 30 minutes. I think the cam will get broken in one way or the other, and I felt that with my backyard overhaul with less than perfect bores, the new rings needed some pressure on them to seat quickly which was my priority. I used Rotella 15w-40.
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
in the past 25 years 7.5 million TDI's have been produced, other than the factory check out for systems, compression etc they have never followed any of these odd ball break in procedures for camshafts.

Just saying guys, It may make you feel good, but with properly finished parts of the correct specification its just not needed.

Good oil, Good parts, drive more and worry less (Yes I invented that quote).
 

BuzzKen

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 16, 2011
Location
Markham, Ontario
TDI
'10 Touareg TDI, '09 335D, '10 X5D
I personally prefer the 'drive it like I stole it' method. As said above, I'm fairly certain an alh with 3 miles on it brand new at the dealer hasn't been through any break-in except by a lot jockey.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Odd Balll is a disparaging way of disagreeing. But if odd ball is the term, with so many reasons for doing break-in, not to do so would be the oddity.

Assume everything about your new engine were absolutely perfect. I will agree, engine building has come a long way in just the last ten years... It still needs break-in. Many, like Porsche, Audi and VW are dynoed before the engine is installed. Many engines like Honda and Ford come with special break-in oils still in the vehicle. Most companies will not tell you their technique. Also, most motor companies give 10's of thousands of miles warranties. They need some assurance their is no issue. So they all perform some form of break-in and NOBODY buys a car and drives car that has not been given its initial break-in. The big question is what is necessary? Some say nothing special and good luck. Hot rod them like that is good for the engine... I don't think that is the answer and we don't use luck to build engines.

But Ford and Honda use break-in oils in their new cars. That is a lot of wasted break-in oil, if its not necessary.

Why would I do any less for my newly built engine?
 

mountain lion

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Location
Florida
TDI
04 Jetta TDI
Any opinions on cryo treating the cam and lifters? The science behind it is sound, but my guess is there is no quantitative data in a TDI application. I'll need a new cam sometime in the near future, for $50 I don't see how it could hurt having them treated prior to install.
 

Scorny

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Location
Barrie,Ontario.
TDI
2 ALH TDi's
Any opinions on cryo treating the cam and lifters? The science behind it is sound, but my guess is there is no quantitative data in a TDI application. I'll need a new cam sometime in the near future, for $50 I don't see how it could hurt having them treated prior to install.

I wondered the same thing especially for the not so tough ALH 5 speed tranny gears.
I know the 6 speed will be ideal but for what it's worth,anybody care to share some light on this ?
Thanks.
 

andy2

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Location
Bowmanville,Ontario,Canada
TDI
13 Jetta,94 Golf drag car 585bhp,Samurai buggy BHW 300bhp,97 Ram cummins
I wondered the same thing especially for the not so tough ALH 5 speed tranny gears.
I know the 6 speed will be ideal but for what it's worth,anybody care to share some light on this ?
Thanks.
I wouldn't bother with cryo treatment for anything.I had a 4th gearset failure on my 02j (5spd) and put the same stock gear ratio back in.I'm still working hard to try and break it again ;).My o2j had some bearing clearance issues and I have to wonder if that had somthing to do with this destruction.Every major bearing clearance has now been tightened up.

I use assembly lube on my engine that requires ether to start after rebuild :).Its really just extra insurance for the cam builder.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Assembly lube is so you don't dry start. Apply it to all journals, cam and followers, so you don't risk galling any mating parts prior to startup. It is not in lieu of break-in...at least, not for me.

We know of a lot of things engine builders get away with that we would never do.. Reuse piston rings, all sorts of single-use bolts are reused; rod, main caps, head bolt, flywheel...no break-in...don't check cylinder taper, crank size, thrust washer end play, etc, etc, etc.. Then put it together and say they don't have any problems. My BS meter is pegging. Gamblers only tell you when they are winning.

Then we do things that are called odd ball. Lets add another. We pressurize the oil galley prior to startup, so oil is immediately available. Necessary? That depends on your risk acceptance. But then, we consider balancing rods and pistons necessary, too. Odd? Yes, I guess so...

We build for 250,000 miles and we get results. The purpose in what we do is risk elimination, not risk taking. We follow what professional builders have been doing for the assurance of long term results.

If given a choice, who would you want building YOUR engine?
 

jason_

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2014
Location
michigan
TDI
2015 s wagon dsg
Kinda off topic, but kinda not,

I did a no no once. Took apart used 2 donor engines for the bottom half of rod bearings, to put in a 3rd for a full set.

Got 120k out of it. Tipping 60k# at the scales, 10 years everyday, foot to the floor, every gear. old 61 t750 tandem dually dump 10 yard truck. . The not really 'big' , big block 460.

Ended up cracking 6 pistons. Not really a heavy duty engine. :D

534s, that's another story.

The original 332 with sodium valves was a tuffy...

Sent from my rooted HTC Supersonic using Tapatalk 2 Pro
 

Scorny

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Location
Barrie,Ontario.
TDI
2 ALH TDi's
@...Franko6..
You've been very informative and a lot of sense was made in all the replies you've posted so far.
And that's not saying others that replied didn't make sense.The way I see it personal is,the person who made the CAM and sold it to me says,add a $10 bottle of this 'stuff' to the $300 or so CAM I just sold you to help break it in and or avoid pre-mature wear or damage,the choice or decision was not even slightly debatable.
Did it work ? Maybe,maybe not.Will find out someday but for now it's working beautifully.
If somebody that has had an experience has said adding the ZDDP will actually make things bad or worse,then it will have been a different story and something to think about.
 

vanbcguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC
TDI
'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
^^^ bingo. Is it necessary? Maybe, maybe not. Will it hurt anything? Nope. Is it cost prohibitive? Nope. Does it make any sense NOT to do it? Nope.
 

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Goodness knows Pete and I have had our fair share of disagreements in the past, but I agree with him on this one.

I have installed more cam and lifter sets than I can count, on domestics, Euros and Japanese. Never needed to take any special precautions other than outlined above - make sure everything is lubed up prior to install, and crank the engine liberally with the ignition disconnected until oil pressure comes up. Never had one fail or come back prematurely.

On pd cams, I might do one additional oil change at the halfway point, but nothing more than that.
As noted, V8's and others with similar flat tappet cams need to be broken in so I hope you did that if you fixed V8's. Otherwise, I agree with you on the ALH.

I personally prefer the 'drive it like I stole it' method. As said above, I'm fairly certain an alh with 3 miles on it brand new at the dealer hasn't been through any break-in except by a lot jockey.
Ditto, this loads up the rings and helps them seat, Hastings recommends this, read the back of their ring box, :p

Any opinions on cryo treating the cam and lifters? The science behind it is sound, but my guess is there is no quantitative data in a TDI application. I'll need a new cam sometime in the near future, for $50 I don't see how it could hurt having them treated prior to install.
Waste of money, I had some rocker shafts done in my DOHC Caravan engine, after a year, they were badly worn, whereas the stupid mileage ones I removed from the used engine looked brand new.

Kinda off topic, but kinda not,

I did a no no once. Took apart used 2 donor engines for the bottom half of rod bearings, to put in a 3rd for a full set.

Got 120k out of it. Tipping 60k# at the scales, 10 years everyday, foot to the floor, every gear. old 61 t750 tandem dually dump 10 yard truck. . The not really 'big' , big block 460.

Ended up cracking 6 pistons. Not really a heavy duty engine. :D

534s, that's another story.

The original 332 with sodium valves was a tuffy...

Sent from my rooted HTC Supersonic using Tapatalk 2 Pro
Nothing wrong with reusing bearings, they are a no wear item unless you've had oil issues or extreme detonation. If the silver coating is mostly intact, use away.
 

LNXGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
^^^ bingo. Is it necessary? Maybe, maybe not. Will it hurt anything? Nope. Is it cost prohibitive? Nope. Does it make any sense NOT to do it? Nope.
It makes perfect sense not to do it if you don't want to. Until it's proven detrimental to the cam, you're just doing it so you feel better. I think a lot of the responses in thread have proven there's more then one way to skin a cat.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
I get where a lot of you folks are coming from. Many mechanics build an engine and when it doesn't come back, that is good enough. We REGULARLY get comments of our rebuilt cylinder heads and engines topping 250,000 and we build with the intent of lasting that long. It is a different set of parameters and requires additional attention to detail.

Several of our engines are doubled hp from stock.. or more. The harder you push it, the more reasonable it is to protect your investment with break-in procedures. The harder you push it, the more reasonable it is to modify for improvements in cam design, rod strength, piston cooling and a myriad of improvements. I keep saying, it is not my idea for break-in methods, but a resoundingly repeated statement from just about everybody who ever got into their brains to engineer a cam, manufacture that cam and expect it to last. If the whole engine is built, break-in is even more important for proper ring seating.

For more years than I care to remember, we have been blowing up cams in flat tappet engines, rocker shaft engines, rocker roller engines... but the single easiest cam to destroy is a OHV flat tappet engine. The bigger the hp, the quicker the results. It is best to design for and use techniques to access longevity.

I will continue to build the best way I know how. The single result that prompts me to go 'anal' are the failures, which live very long in your memory. Push hard enough and you will cause them. As any engineer knows, failure is a cruel and wonderful teacher. The failures have caused me more study and understanding than my successes. And by learning what caused the failure, it has improved our overall skills.

I realize we aren't building a nuclear power plant, but a course of carefully designed steps that over the life of the build, show significantly improved reliability are always going to be installed in the procedure manual. Predictability for the product life-expectancy is always the goal. We will continue to build with no shortcuts.

N'uff said.
 

CourierGuy

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2014
Location
Canada
TDI
2002 Golf(Summer) 2003 Golf(Winter)
Hp... Occurs at high rpms... Just higher overall stress really. Anytime you run in high rpms, you get more wear. Stressing components for more power ain't gonna lengthen the life of your goodies! Valve floating get comes to mind. Low oil... Temperatures... Bogging engines.. A whole bunch of things can wreck stuff.

I still like Franks way of thinking. Not a pro engine builder here, but I've broken in a few motors.. And wrecked enough parts over 16 cars. Read horror stories.

You gotta pay to play. And sometimes, the Devil is in the details. Just like fuel conditioner. It all adds up.
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Hp... Occurs at high rpms...
Soooo....... If the valves are still turning at a maximum rpm of 5100 stock or Modified how exactly is stress higher?

Keep in mind that the same valve springs, valves etc are used in engines that rev to near 6500-7000 rpm.

Unless of course you are using larger springs, have a higher lift cam, increase the mass of the valves etc load will remain exactly the same. Of course air alone does not increase engine performance. In fact you can make the case that all things being equal, a modified cam (DIESEL engine) actually robs power thru higher valve train loads/losses.

Also, on a diesel engine as load (power) increases what happens to the fuel air ratio and the combustion temperature in the bowl of the piston as it relates to the peak temperatures being transferred to the valves, does it go up, or down?

Just fun banter, but also pointing out the obvious mis-conceptions that abound.
 
Last edited:

CourierGuy

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2014
Location
Canada
TDI
2002 Golf(Summer) 2003 Golf(Winter)
I'm not as educated as you are.. But what I perhaps meant to say.. The higher the rpms, the more wear and tear. Modifying our little TDIs for more balls, stresses parts out more. Add the two, and it just gets amplified. Not saying things will blow up, but longevity has to be shortened. Whether it'd be by 100k or 200k miles, it's still shorter.

Still won't stop me in molesting my cars :)
 

Scorny

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Location
Barrie,Ontario.
TDI
2 ALH TDi's
At what point in the HP/TORQUE range should one start worrying about the (alh)bottom end ?
I'm not planing on going on anymore with upgrades,just want to make sure I'm at a safe/sweet spot without compromising/weakening the bottom end.
Thanks.
 

BuzzKen

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 16, 2011
Location
Markham, Ontario
TDI
'10 Touareg TDI, '09 335D, '10 X5D
'In my opinion', so far 202whp 365tq is still in limits. Will post dyno #'s in the next few weeks with hopefully nicer numbers than that.

*assuming the car is set up properly*
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
As noted, V8's and others with similar flat tappet cams need to be broken in so I hope you did that if you fixed V8's. Otherwise, I agree with you on the ALH.
i'm curious about this and i wonder what difference the valvetrain mass, friction and spring seat pressure have on the need for break in.... remember pushrod motors have heavy lifters, pushrods, rocker arms with greater than 1 to 1 ratio, heavier valves and much much stronger valve springs to keep the sum of all this mass from floating at high rpms... our somewhat low rpm engines have relatively small valvetrain mass and low seat pressure when compared to a traditional V8.... add to that the proportional size difference between the lifter/lobe when comparing pushrod vs cam over follower designs .... the small lifter diameter in most pushrod engines forces the ramp of the lobe against the lifter edge (crazy it doesn't just wipe the lobe out instantly) ... so maybe break in is more critical in these high pressure pushrod applications ... just food for thought ;)
EDIT: i'd like to add that i do perform a break in on PD cams, but while staring at the tach during the procedure i always find myself thinking how completely unnecessary this is :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Top