New Cam break-in procedure with ZDDP.

Scorny

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Location
Barrie,Ontario.
TDI
2 ALH TDi's
Hey guys,just installed a stage II cam in my ALH and one of the recommended breaking procedure was to add ZDDP additive to the oil.
My question is,for anybody that knows or have done this before,when should the current oil with the ZDDP additive be changed ?
Is it hours,days or wait till the next oil change is due ?
Thanks for your help.
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
In the history of time I have never done any special break in on ANY camshaft, and in the history of time I have NEVER had any customer report back with a cam issue...

I install using the standard TDI oil (Mobil 1 5w40 Turbo Diesel Truck in all pre-DPF TDI's), lubricate the lifters liberally, drizzle a some oil on the bearings and cam lobes. Crank the motor to pre-lube everything (Dry fire by disconnecting the injector harness).

Start motor and drive!

First oil change is done at 10K, oil samples show NO abnormal wear.

The only time I do a post oil change is if the motor had shattered lifters from a complete failure, in which case I will run the motor to heat it up, then flush the oil and filter one time, then resume normal oil change intervals.

ZDDP is an outdated wear additive that has been surpassed in protection with newer DPF friendly additives in all the latest oils. Its kind of like adding lead to gasoline, just don't.
 

rkovacs

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Location
Cumming, GA
TDI
Black 2005 Jetta TDI Wagon
I had my original cam eat thru one of the lifters with severe wear on all lobes. Long story short, replaced it with a Colt 2 cam, flushed it with cheap oil (enough to warm it up) then drain and change. Filled again with little bit better oil, ran for a hundred or so miles, drained and changed again, both times with oil filters. Then put in the good Mobil 1 TDT oil.
100K + miles later I replaced the injectors and inspected the cam at that time and it still looked new, couldn't see any wear on them. I was very happy.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Goodness knows Pete and I have had our fair share of disagreements in the past, but I agree with him on this one.

I have installed more cam and lifter sets than I can count, on domestics, Euros and Japanese. Never needed to take any special precautions other than outlined above - make sure everything is lubed up prior to install, and crank the engine liberally with the ignition disconnected until oil pressure comes up. Never had one fail or come back prematurely.

On pd cams, I might do one additional oil change at the halfway point, but nothing more than that.
 

GOTADUB

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Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Location
calgary alberta
TDI
2002 golf
I have seen lots of cams get destroyed in 50-100km without propper break in. Why would you risk a $300-$400 cam over a 10 bottle of cam lube and and 20 min of run in time and then an oil change yes some people get lucky and don't have problems but is it worth the risk ?
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Not lucky. I worked as a mechanic in dealerships for more than a decade. I installed hundreds of cams.

I didn't follow any special break-in procedure other than proper installation and priming. Why? Because no manufacturer I ever worked for required it (nor did they do it at the factory).

Please tell me how that is lucky.
 

GOTADUB

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Joined
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Location
calgary alberta
TDI
2002 golf
Every aftermarket cam company I have used used always had a break in procedure including the cam that this post is about. Maybe the oem cams have a diffent finish on them then the aftermarket. And inhabe also been a licensed tech for 15 years and have seen oem cams fail. Last set done in our shop last 10000km the tech that installed them started the engine blipped the throttle to 3-4000 rpm and few time then drove the car all 4 cams and all 32 lifters were destroyed before the next oil change
 

GOTADUB

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Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Location
calgary alberta
TDI
2002 golf
When did I use the word lucky ? If the dealer you worked at had had 100s of cam needing replacment maybe that says something about not properly breaking in a cam and how it affects the life of the cam
 

Scorny

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Location
Barrie,Ontario.
TDI
2 ALH TDi's
Thanks for the response guys.I understand what Windex and everyone is saying.
But I seem to have the worst of luck when it comes to things like this,so I did in fact followed the break-in procedure that came with the CAM knowing it won't hurt,I figured a 20 minute or so sitting still in the car won't make me bored to death.
Or atleast I can have one thing in my favor should anything happen and I have to contact the manufacturer,knowing I did everything right.
It paid off,car runs very smooth and even pulls much better.I'm very happy.
Much appreciated.
 

Windex

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Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
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05 B5V 01E FRF
When did I use the word lucky ?
Here.

yes some people get lucky and don't have problems but is it worth the risk ?
Regardless of OEM new and replacement metallurgy, none of the OEMs I worked for specified special break in, and none of the cams I installed came back prematurely.

Saab, Isuzu, GM, Honda, VW and others. Cams wear out, some last longer than others.

Case hardening, heat treating, and cryo treatments have not changed, and if anything, metallurgy has got better, not worse.

You can keep your special oil, I'd rather have an experienced tech do the install to make sure it won't come back.
 

GOTADUB

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Location
calgary alberta
TDI
2002 golf
So your saying I'm not an experianced tech cuz I fallow the instruction that come with a cam ? If that what your saying you can (redacted). I have Been the trade for 15 years am a gm master tech vw master tech and now in line to be the shop Forman for one of the top Mercedes Benz dealers in Canada I'm a very ecperiancced tech
 
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Windex

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Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Never said you weren't - don't get your panties in a bunch because someone on the internet has a different opinion.

You want to use special oil for break-in - no problem, nobody is stopping you.
 

LNXGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
Not lucky. I worked as a mechanic in dealerships for more than a decade. I installed hundreds of cams.

I didn't follow any special break-in procedure other than proper installation and priming. Why? Because no manufacturer I ever worked for required it (nor did they do it at the factory).

Please tell me how that is lucky.
I'd probably listening to this guy.
 

GOTADUB

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Location
calgary alberta
TDI
2002 golf
You can keep your special oil, I'd rather have an experienced tech do the install to make sure it won't come back.


That sure sounds like your saying I'm not an experianced tech
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Cam break-in is not my invention. Flat tappet cams have known issues, particularly in high performance situations. Rather then listen to what I say, how about what the cam pros say?

http://www.cranecams.com/uploads/breakin/548e.pdf
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/training-center/guides/proper-cam-break-in-procedure/
http://www.compcams.com/Instructions/Files/COMP4-115.pdf
http://enginebuildermag.com/2011/04/flat-tappet-camshaft-break-in-procedure/

Is that enough? Because there are lots more...
 

Windex

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Location
Cambridge
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05 B5V 01E FRF
Listen - I said "keep your fancy oil", meaning I'm not going to use it.

You said "eat a dick" meaning that I should cast aside my monogamous heterosexual relationship for something a little more risqué.

If you're truly in line to be the next foreman at your shop, a few words of advice:

1) no personal attacks. Techs and apprentices will always question your judgment. You will lose their goodwill if you are always on the defensive - a good tech takes input from many sources and also allows their opinions to be changed based on new information.
2) grammar and spelling count - at the very least spell your city correctly.
3) best of luck and work hard at keeping your techs - I have three shops in Calgary, and keeping good people is difficult. Lead them, don't shout at them.
 

40X40

Experienced
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Feb 12, 2006
Location
Kansas City area, MO
TDI
2013 Passat SEL Premium
Listen - I said "keep your fancy oil", meaning I'm not going to use it.

You said "eat a dick" meaning that I should cast aside my monogamous heterosexual relationship for something a little more risqué.

If you're truly in line to be the next foreman at your shop, a few words of advice:

1) no personal attacks. Techs and apprentices will always question your judgment. You will lose their goodwill if you are always on the defensive - a good tech takes input from many sources and also allows their opinions to be changed based on new information.
2) grammar and spelling count - at the very least spell your city correctly.
3) best of luck and work hard at keeping your techs - I have three shops in Calgary, and keeping good people is difficult. Lead them, don't shout at them.

And THAT, folks, is what you call 'exercising RESTRAINT when posting'.

Well done.

Bill
 

GOTADUB

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Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Location
calgary alberta
TDI
2002 golf
Sorry if I misspelled something on my tiny keyboard on my phone .

I will have no problems keeping techs I'm the nicest guy in the world until some one attacks me personally. " I would rather have an experianced tech do the install" felt like a personal attack. So I responded to it.

Like Frank posted multipul cam comapanies all recommend a break. I feel like the people that make that parts prob know what they are doing and have reasons for there recomondations so I fallow them.
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Lets get back to basics here guys...

First, the owner has an ALH with a wide Cam Lobe (vs the PD cam lobe profile).

This means the total force on the lobe is less since there is a wider contact area.

The OEM Lifters (since he is using new ones...mandatory) have a superb finish and hardened surface.

The cam lobes will have a near perfect finish as well since these are not re-grinds.

The two surfaces on these TDI's rely on a certain amount of contact friction at first to spin the lifter in the bore to create a uniform contact area and prevent fatigue failure of the lifter, this rotational force comes from the displacement of the oil film on the top of the lifter, so there is still no direct contact of the two surfaces... ever.

Also, fatigue due to excess wear causes a deformation (Concave contact face of the lobe) on the cam lobe thus raising the total force on the lifter leading to a failure.

As long as you have a NEW cam and NEW lifter, and use a 5w40 oil a break-in is simply not going to occur no matter how much you run the motor.

Why?

The oil film thickness is thicker than the raised surfaces of the two parts so no matter what you do, there is simply no contact between those surfaces no matter how you rev the motor.

Frankly, you may as well do a rain dance and chant in front of the car because its going to accomplish just about as much.

What will kill these cams:
-Thin oil
-High Oil temperatures
-mixing New and USED parts....
-Using inferior parts with POOR QUAILITY (Bad hardening, convex/concave surfaces etc)

For the above mentioned reasons, I only suggest using high HT/HS oils in the PD's to insure the thickest layer of oil between the cam and the lifter.

That's just how it is with these motors, a break-in simply isn't doing anything provided you use the correct oil and install good quality parts with correct finishing and hardness.
 
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LNXGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
Sorry if I misspelled something on my tiny keyboard on my phone .

I will have no problems keeping techs I'm the nicest guy in the world until some one attacks me personally. " I would rather have an experianced tech do the install" felt like a personal attack. So I responded to it.

Like Frank posted multipul cam comapanies all recommend a break. I feel like the people that make that parts prob know what they are doing and have reasons for there recomondations so I fallow them.

Turn the spellcheck on, you come across as extremely uneducated.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Windex,

"Fancy oil"... You mean like the PD 505.01 ratings? Or the required 507 for the CRs? I hope you don't think this is personal, as it is simply a disagreement in technique. For the most part, I do not care if you break in the regular, stock grind, everyday, underpowered stock engine. You are right and you will most often be right. It is not GENERALLY necessary. And when I'm asked about stock ALH engine cams, that is what I tell them.

But going back to the days when big blocks were in my life, we would blow out cams is weeks, sometimes days. We learned flat tapped cams were potentially failure point, unless proper break-in was done. As a current example, the PD cams are problems.

Some cams are fussy. When I decide to build an engine, I consider it important to follow a more careful procedure to insure results. That is the technique we employ with the PD engines and any engine that is modified for substantial power increases.

When we decide that beak-in is important, we are talking about PROBLEM CAMS. I don't think you can make much issue that the PD is a problem cam, for many reasons.

In the long term, and that is the most often repeated statement, cam maker to cam maker.. The first 1/2 hr (some say 20 minutes) is the life of the cam. I beleive an improved cam break-in procedure allows increased life expectancy, I am all for it.

DBW is, as usual, subtle as a hammer. Your inference about cams is biased and typical of the your methods we have come to understand. If we are going to talk about rules, you are infringing, subtle but obvious. You haven't seen the finish, so you shouldn't comment on what you obviously do not know. And you also infringe on your own cam grinder, who we happen to know, makes many cams of the kind of which you to take me to task. That is hypocritical. Even there, you absolutely do not know what cams we use and that they are new.

You really want to go 'round again?
 
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Windex

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Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Hey Frank,

No, not 505.01 - I use it in my PD religiously, as I know the failprone design eats Cams. And yes, given that the OP has a run of the mill unstressed ALH cam, I would not do anything special other than ensuring prime, prelube and generally making sure that dry parts don't scrape across each other until the oil pump build pressure.

That or the low ash requirement for oil in the CR / DPF equipped engines.

See that's the neat thing when cooler heads prevail, we have a civil discourse instead recommending each other to begin munching phallus.

That said, the lobes in my BHW are perfect, but the bearings are noisy, despite backing off a little on the belt tension.

It has the typical cam bearing whine heard when a timing belt is too tight - when I take it out to get it redone, you're getting the work. I've been to lazy to check the journals to see if I could get away with just bearing shells.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Thank you Windex. When pushing the ALH cams over 165, we strongly recommend nitrided lifters. AND break-in. In my book, it is cheap insurance. Also, we have no problem using the higher rated oils for engines pushed for power. If the preferred oil is good for the PD problem, it will help the ALH cam last.

We developed yet another benefit for the PD engine's cam bearings, as they are a problem. We assemble the cylinder head cam caps and then bolt the rocker shafts in place and torqued to spec. The rocker shafts deform the cam caps, especially the #1 and #5 cap. When we cut the standard size bore with our align bore tool,, we can visibly see how much the caps are crushed out-of-round. The assembly of cam at that point, is remarkably easier and smoother in assembly and operation.. We get the proper clearances.

The PD engine prompted us to more extreme measures and is the basis of our cam break-in postings.

As for what does or doesn't work, our goal was efficiency and longevity. We see no reason to stop what we are doing, as it is undeniably successful.
 

outoften

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Location
Burnaby
TDI
2006 Jetta
Popped an exhaust lifter thru the top hat last year after 280,000k. Dealer changed out all the lifters and the cam. Drove out the dealer door and 1800kms to work. Added 40,000k since and was given no special instructions by the dealer
 

vanbcguy

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Feb 22, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC
TDI
'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
Most of the older American V8 engines had splash oiled cams. If you don't use tons of assembly lube plus break in oil they tend not to do so well. If you don't run the engine at a high enough RPM after startup the cam will be basically dry.

VW doesn't really have much of an issue getting oil to the cam. But really there's no reason NOT to follow the break in procedures used for inferior engine designs - the additives and lube just assure everything goes well.
 
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