New Alternative to the Balance Shaft Issue

tdiblair

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May 16, 2005
Location
CT Yankee
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Passat 2005 silver Passat Sedan & 2005 Wagon Stone Henge Gray
With 3 of these 2005 Passat Diesels in the family the timing belt time is approaching. Do I go with the gear set which is very expensive and still does not correct that ' key' in the oil pump drive shaft slot? Do I go with the "Delete Kit" which some seem to like and others claim noticeable vibration - others say they no vibration? Did this forum ever come to a majority consensus on The Delete Kit? I've been off the forum for a while and would love to know. My focus has always been on these 2 alternatives ( Gear Set or The Delete Kit) Between those two I'm was leaning on the Delete, but my local shop mentioned something I never considered. I'm not sure the forum has either.

I described the shoe that presses or puts tension against the chain coming apart and sending metal fragments though the engine oil. He said put enough miles and a lot of shoes and this can happen but what if you replace the chain and replace the ' shoe' every 80,000 miles when you have the timing belt done? he said, I doubt that many of these shoes destroy themselves before 80,000 miles. Perhaps the bulk of the problems happen after the 80,000 mile mark since most repair shops just do the Timing Belt and never consider replacing the chain and ' tensioning shoe' at 80,000 miles.

I know one member here had that tensioning shoe begin to come apart by 80,000 miles. Is this the only case where the shoe started to come apart before 80-K ? Another, in CT where I'm from, had his break at 150,000. I realize this is not a perfect solution, but the percentage of shoes that broke by 80,000 miles I'm ' guessing ' is a very small percentage. Guessing, is something non of us like to do on our cars so I want to toss this 3rd approach out to the forum. In short you are replacing the Balance Shaft Chain and the Shoe , with new VW stock chain and Shoe, keeping your balance shaft in the car and ' assuming' the odds are well in your favor that the NEW SHOE makes it 80K to the next Timing Belt change. For all I know, maybe VW beefed up or modified the tensioning shoe?

Your thoughts please,

TDIBlair
 

vwztips

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2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2011 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2005 Audi A4 Avant 6MQ TDI 2011 BMW X5 35d
What I have seen is the tensioner/bracket holding the shoe cracks and breaks between 150 and 200k, so that would need to be replaced as well. Also the teeth on the crank gear wear out as well as the chain stretching. Add the oil pump drive shaft replacement too. On top of that, I don't know if you can get the individual parts.

The "replacement" parts for the chain BSM probably cost as much or more than the delete kit, again if you can get them.

If you have 3 of these cars then why not install the delete on the next car due for TB and see for yourself? The kit isn't too expensive and the labor is going to be the same as replacing parts. I like the delete, plus the MPG is better and it has more pep.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
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05 B5V 01E FRF
You also have the potential of the hex key / keyway wearing out, and there have been a couple of instances of the crank gear cracking.

Not worth the risk, and as above there is a fair amount of labour (over and above the timing belt - the pan has to come down) to get to the tensioner and chain.

False economy not to do it right if you've gone that far.
 

johnboy00

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Bridgewater,Ma.,USA
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2005 Passat Wagon, 2004 Jetta, 2003 Jetta wagon
There's no consensus. The best solution is the BS replacement. The hex shaft wearing with a gear drive is not really a problem since a gear drive does not give the same type of forces that the chain drive system did. I could be wrong but the number of people who had a hex drive problem on a geared BS and talked about it here is 0 or maybe 1, to my best recollection.

The cheapest solution is the delete and there have not been any problems associated with it beyond some vibrations.

There was one shop who was doing chain replacements but there have not been many people who subscribed to their reasoning. They were also replacing the hex key.
 

Scubanero

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Calgary AB
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2005 Passat Wagon
I replaced my BSM at 112000 km (70,000 miles) and the tensioner was already not just cracked, but in pieces.
 

tdiblair

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Location
CT Yankee
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Passat 2005 silver Passat Sedan & 2005 Wagon Stone Henge Gray
VWZTIPS writes " What I have seen is the tensioner/bracket holding the shoe cracks and breaks between 150 and 200k, so that would need to be replaced as well. Also the teeth on the crank gear wear out as well as the chain stretching. Add the oil pump drive shaft replacement too. On top of that, I don't know if you can get the individual parts." Thanks VWZTIPS , I would have missed that the issue is mostly the bracket and left the flawed part (the bracket) in there as I ordered ' only ' a new Shoe. Thanks for the save.

QuickTD and VWZTIPs both mention parts availability is tough. Another point that is making me back off plus lots of labor labor in this stock parts replacement for a somewhat compromised set up and then I'm still left with that Key in the slot of the Oil Pump shaft that will develop play and I imagine the economics to replace that key gets costly with labor to get to that oil pump gear off to replace the key? So my scheme is full of false economics on the labor charges .

I think you guys have pushed me further to the Delete since the Gear set is approaching $1900 and still leaves me with that key in the oil pump drive shaft.


I remember there is a 'optional' oil pump one can get in the Delete Kit that gives you more oil pressure. Is that an advisable thing to do or is it just unnecessary pressure on my oil gaskets and seals? If you do advise the oil pump with more pressure, do you know which oil pump is the more desirable one to order and which Vendor should I go to buy The Delete Kit? I'm hoping for real Audi/VW parts and not Chinese made copies.

Last question is vibration on the Delete. Is there a RPM target zone where the vibration is noticed - like that out of balanced front tire that shakes the steering wheel at a certain speed but goes away if you go below or above that speed?

I guess I'm down to these questions:
1) Delete Kit Vibration - what RPM does it rear it's head and how bad when it does?
2) Do I go for the more powerful oil pump option if I go Delete & what is that Oil Pump Model or am I just adding unnecessary oil pressure to the seals?
3) What Vendor would you use to buy The Delete Kit & Complete Timing Belt Kit . I'd hate to end up with one of those water pumps with the plastic impeller that failed so often on some other models of VW's. I think the '02 Golfs had that failed Plastic Water Pump Impeller issue?

Regard

Blair
 

tdiblair

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Location
CT Yankee
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Passat 2005 silver Passat Sedan & 2005 Wagon Stone Henge Gray
" There's no consensus. The best solution is the BS replacement. The hex shaft wearing with a gear drive is not really a problem since a gear drive does not give the same type of forces that the chain drive system did. I could be wrong but the number of people who had a hex drive problem on a geared BS and talked about it here is 0 or maybe 1, to my best recollection." JohnBoy00 Sorry , I posted before I read your post and Scubanero's . I think you are right on the key. Although one guy found play - that key was still doing it's job of holding the gear in place on the shaft since the force is just one direction. I think that poster described that play as ' woddle' and his car had mileage on it I probably won't see.

Scubenaro writes " I replaced my BSM at 112000 km (70,000 miles) and the tensioner was already not just cracked, but in pieces. "

Scub, your post alone with the 70,000 miles officially changes my mind on trying to replace these parts at every T.B. interval with the hope they will hold up for 80K. Just a bad VWAG design from the get go.

thanks

Blair
 

Zambee500

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Jun 29, 2008
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2005 Passat TDI GLS, 2014 NMS Passat TDI SEL Premium
The hex shaft wearing with a gear drive is not really a problem since a gear drive does not give the same type of forces that the chain drive system did. I could be wrong but the number of people who had a hex drive problem on a geared BS and talked about it here is 0 or maybe 1, to my best recollection.
I went geared before I went delete. The hex shaft on my geared BSM wore off the corners and stopped turning, causing total loss of oil pressure. I posted about it, and I was by no means the first or only person to post this happening either. I also received a couple PMs of other folks who have experienced this as well who didn't want to post about it for whatever reason. My chain-driven BSM (107k) went farther than my gear driven (57k) before failing. Tensioner was cracked on my chain driven when I had it removed, but it was still functioning and maintaining oil pressure.

Delete is safest option. And cheapest. Vibrations are the trade-off. Risk analysis.
 

Zambee500

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Location
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2005 Passat TDI GLS, 2014 NMS Passat TDI SEL Premium
I remember there is a 'optional' oil pump one can get in the Delete Kit that gives you more oil pressure. Is that an advisable thing to do or is it just unnecessary pressure on my oil gaskets and seals? If you do advise the oil pump with more pressure, do you know which oil pump is the more desirable one to order and which Vendor should I go to buy The Delete Kit? I'm hoping for real Audi/VW parts and not Chinese made copies.
Others with more knowledge than me can chime in and correct, but I believe the pressure relief valve would equal out the oil pressure between the two. Unless the pressure relief valve fails, in which case you may be worse off with the higher pressure version. I think ALH oil pump is the lower pressure and BRM oil pump is higher pressure. No clue how or whether this affects the vibrations at all.
 

johnboy00

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Jun 15, 2000
Location
Bridgewater,Ma.,USA
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2005 Passat Wagon, 2004 Jetta, 2003 Jetta wagon
I went geared before I went delete. The hex shaft on my geared BSM wore off the corners and stopped turning, causing total loss of oil pressure. I posted about it, and I was by no means the first or only person to post this happening either. I also received a couple PMs of other folks who have experienced this as well who didn't want to post about it for whatever reason. My chain-driven BSM (107k) went farther than my gear driven (57k) before failing. Tensioner was cracked on my chain driven when I had it removed, but it was still functioning and maintaining oil pressure.

Delete is safest option. And cheapest. Vibrations are the trade-off. Risk analysis.
What do you think happened in your case? 57K is ridiculously low.

There certainly have not been many of these, but then again if it happened to you you are much more likely to remember when someone else has the same issue. I wonder why someone would have this problem and not post about it?

BTW, I don't profess to know anything about gear vs chain wear on the hex shaft but I know it was pretty well discussed that a gear drive should cause less wear than a chain drive.
 

tdiblair

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Others with more knowledge than me can chime in and correct, but I believe the pressure relief valve would equal out the oil pressure between the two. Unless the pressure relief valve fails, in which case you may be worse off with the higher pressure version. I think ALH oil pump is the lower pressure and BRM oil pump is higher pressure. No clue how or whether this affects the vibrations at all.
Zambee...thanks.....I did not consider an oil relief valve that might negate any benefit in going to a higher pressure pump. As to it contributing to more vibration - no - vibration was not my concern . My only concern with the higher pressure oil pump was if it was exerting unnecessary strain on my existing gaskets and seals since the original design of the engine was for the ALH pump's lower pressure.

thanks

Blair
 

vwztips

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2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2011 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2005 Audi A4 Avant 6MQ TDI 2011 BMW X5 35d
I have installed a oil PSI gauge on both setups and they both max out at around 65 PSI IIRC, so my experinece is that it doesn't matter which pump you use.

No two cars are the same but usually the main time you can notice vibration with the delete is at idle in gear. I have had a few geared BSM's with more vibrations.
 

tdiblair

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VWZTIPS , it sounds like you are a mechanic ? Or have done a few of these? You and others talked me down from my original idea of preplacing a flawed chain design with new parts hoping they , at least last, 80K. Seems the Delete is not perfect but if vibration - in gear at idle- is the main downfall it seems the best compromise and I will stay with the ALH oil pump. I assume changing out the motor mounts is advisable too along with the freewheel pulley on the Alternator? Since I will be purchasing the Deluxe Timing Belt Kit & The Delete Kit...where would you suggest I place my order to get the best quality. For example, I 'heard' water pumps alone can vary from internet vendor to another.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Cambridge
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05 B5V 01E FRF
For the oil pressure question,

The pump is the same, it's the size of the chain and pump sprocket. The chain and sprocket can be had from either an ALH or a BRM. The BRM sprocket is smaller, and will spin the oil pump faster. As above, when cold, the releif valve will limit the oil pressure.

I went with the BRM sprocket, as the PDs have marginal Cam bearing oiling. My desire for the BRM sprocket was/is oil pressure when hot, and the ability to keep the bearings and cam lobes lubed once up to temperature in the summer months.
 

Zambee500

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What do you think happened in your case? 57K is ridiculously low.

There certainly have not been many of these, but then again if it happened to you you are much more likely to remember when someone else has the same issue. I wonder why someone would have this problem and not post about it?
I have no idea. I did use the Total Quartz 5w30 for the first OCI after the geared unit was installed, but that was really when the 5w30 issue with cam-toasting was just starting to raise its head. And even then people said Total Quartz was a "heavy" 5w30 that was more like a 5w38. Other than that I ran 5w40 exclusively the entire time I had the geared BSM - either Pentosin HP2, M1 TDT, or Rotella T-6. I don't know that the oil weight on one OCI would affect the hex shaft anyway, or would it?

I fully accept that doo-doo occurs in life, and the possibility that I am in the 0.1% if there is a 0.1% failure rate on the parts. I guess it is also possible that it was installed wrong, but I have no reason to believe that and I fully trust the person who installed it from the "trusted" list here. He has done several other geared BSM conversions (as well as BSM deletes) on Passats, and no others have failed. He feels certain he followed the installation instructions posted here to a "T" when he did mine. I do not question the installation.

As to why others wouldn't post about it, it might be due to some folks not wanting to be the focal point of a lengthy discussion of hypotheticals. And also there is the inevitable questioning of the installation and calling into question someone's reputation who makes a living working on TDIs. The same reason I was reluctant to mention it publicly (although I am 99.99% certain it was not the install).
 

peiphil

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There is one part of the install that is hard to do and that is setting the lash on the idler gear
Took me several tries to get it right
The instructions on how to do it don't work.
They say to hold the gear up while you tighten the bolt that holds it.
Every time I tried that it resulted in backlash.
Had to tighten the bolt slightly and knock the gear sideways with a hardwood stick and hammer to get the mesh right and then finish torqueing the bolt.
I believe a gear with too much backlash would clatter enough to wear the hex drive of the oil pump much like the jumping chains done
 

tdiblair

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For the oil pressure question,

The pump is the same, it's the size of the chain and pump sprocket. The chain and sprocket can be had from either an ALH or a BRM. The BRM sprocket is smaller, and will spin the oil pump faster. As above, when cold, the releif valve will limit the oil pressure.

I went with the BRM sprocket, as the PDs have marginal Cam bearing oiling. My desire for the BRM sprocket was/is oil pressure when hot, and the ability to keep the bearings and cam lobes lubed once up to temperature in the summer months.
Windex, can you give me a source to buy The Delete Kit with the BRM pump/chain & sprocket.

Blair
 

bbexotics

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I went with the delete and engine is bulletproof now,some people have had problems with the gears.i got mine from Bora parts
 

tdiblair

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Thanks Windex and bbexotics for the Idparts BHW version. As you know, I'll be buying both the Delete (BHW) & TB kit at the same time. Do IDPARTS & BORA send out real Audi/VW replacement parts such as the oil pump & water-pump or are these generic parts , possibly made in China. Would Word Impex be a better place to source the parts....or ..... will all 3 of the above vendors ship out the same quality parts with Audi / VW stamped on the more critical parts?

Blair
 

vwztips

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2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2011 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2005 Audi A4 Avant 6MQ TDI 2011 BMW X5 35d
I have bought lots of parts and kits from Bora. Call Aaron at Bora Parts and ask him which pump will be in the kit. FWIW, there are VW OEM parts made in China.
 

Windex

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I have never received a bad part from either IDparts or Bora - both are stand up vendors with a good reputation on the club.
 

bbexotics

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Aaron got my parts ,they are oem,all my parts are from bora.Zero problems
 

RavRav

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balance shaft delete "How To"

Where is the link to doing the Balance Shaft Delete? I have been looking in here and can't find it. I know it is here some where because I've seen it before.
 

Montezuma

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Montezuma

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interesting. Well their unit seems to be working very well on my BHW. I have put 40,000 miles on it no problems. What engines are they running in the audis and vw in europe and what are differences between them?
 
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