Richptl
Vendor
I am seeing conflicts about "C" and "D" also. I think the "D" is for the BHM engine and the "C" is for the BEW. So be careful about this.
NEW 28F6/T9 Glow plug recall for 04-05 TDI
- Thread starter db252
- Start date
Richptl
Vendor
Ditto. I got a new Bosch "C" model glow plug control unit and the car starts crappy. I got a burst of 2 seconds at 7 volts then 18 seconds at 4 volts at the module output.
I have an ammeter used for testing alternators that I can put in series with the 50 amp fusible link feeding the glow plug control unit, then I can have a better idea of wattage I am generating.
My car supposedly has the 7 volt programming in the ECU but I put NGK plugs in it, and I strongly believe that the combo of the ECU and control unit with the NGK plugs is under-firing the glow plugs.
I don't think that there is a simple closed loop relationship between the ECU and glow plug unit whereby the ECU says "give me 7 volts" and the glow plug control unit regulates to that level.
I had mine updated yesterday with new plugs, controller and flashed ecm. It never had the original recall done. The car had been starting pretty poorly but this morning it popped off at about 30 Degrees F about how my 2010 would have started. (2005 Wagon with BEW engine @ 60k).
Fingers154
Active member
It appears that mine had the original recall done before I bought the car but as soon as the temps dropped it was horrible. They replaced the plugs, the controller and flashed the ECM. Now it starts like a dream even at much colder temps. No hassles at all from the dealer and it didn't cost me a penny, just a trip to Winnipeg.
technocrat
Well-known member
2 seconds at 7 volts followed by 4 volts seems to me like a profile for a 5 volt plug; initial over voltage followed by regulated power delivery. Did you do this test with the temp sensor unplugged to simulate cold start conditions?
If at some point you find yourself willing to cut open your old GP controller, I would be interested in knowing what's inside it. Based on the selling price, I can't imagine that there is any digital intellegence inside and suspect it is mostly capacitive and inductive pulse shaping components. I could be wrong though and admit that I haven't done my homework on the subject.
Richptl
Vendor
The controller costs $150, 3x as much as the simpler ones for other cars. I agree that the profile looks like a set-up for a 5 volt glow plug. The tuner at KermaTDI swears that I do not have the 5 volt duty cycle profile.
I am not so sure about unplugging the coolant sensor. From my other write-up, when I unplug the sensor the ECU substitutes the fuel temp for the coolant temp, and the glow plug light duration follows accordingly. I did the test with the car parked outside on a cold night.
bumblebeetdi
Well-known member
will they still do a recall on a VW out of the factory warranty? Just wondering. Mine just hit the 100k mark a month ago and was told by Bruce that they updated the previous recall and flash and is now working with the new flash they have.
Celerity
Well-known member
Yes, warranty doesn't matter with the recall, it's an EPA emissions issue so they have to fix it.
turbocharged798
Veteran Member
Just started my 04 in 5*F and it started up instantly, hardly any cranking at all. Sure was mean sounding engine though!
VW got it right this time.
VW got it right this time.
PDJetta
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2003
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- TDI
- '04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
How was the white smoke (unburned fuel) at this temperature?
--Nate
--Nate
turbocharged798
Veteran Member
Wasn't too bad although it still smokes on a cold startup. There was a decent puff of white/blue smoke but it seems to go away quick.Seems better than before the reflash. You should have seen this car when we first got it. It had ALH glow plugs. Talk about a smoke bomb when temps were below 32*F!
PDJetta
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2003
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- TDI
- '04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
Mine is a smoke bomb at anything below 35 degrees F, but I never had any of the recalls done. Smoked the same way and ran rough for a few seconds when brand new too.
--Nate
--Nate
mlemorie
Veteran Member
Mine is still smokey and a bit rough as well when it is cold out, but between the new plugs/flash and the crank sensor TSB, the car lights off really fast every time. I think mine was an early production date 04 though, so I could have the different injectors that have been mentioned elsewhere. If I plug in my frost heater I have no issues with smoke. My dealership finally realized that I was still in the system and had access to VW info and closed it off this week, so looks like I will have to wait like everyone else to see if anything new comes out lol.
turbocharged798
Veteran Member
From what I heard from Drivbiwire, he said that the early 04 injectors were the least likely to fail or have any issues. So, it seems like the 04 injectors run smokier, but are more robust.
This is just from the data I have gathered from on these forums. No idea if its true or not.
This is just from the data I have gathered from on these forums. No idea if its true or not.
QuickWrite
Veteran Member
Can anyone tell me exactly what part number is the preferred replacement glow plug at this point -- assuming your ECU has not been reflashed? What I'm gleaning is that it is NGK N10591609, which is the updated-but-still-ceramic-tipped 7V glow plug. But can somebody confirm that?
turbocharged798
Veteran Member
There is none, hence the recall. The original software was originally for Bosch ceramic ones, which are now NLA and for a good reason.
The original software *may* work OK with the NGK glow plugs, but I would highly recommend getting the latest software for it since its free and flawless from what I have experienced.
Jmac444
Active member
I just bought four new 7v ngk gps from id parts. They have said customers have reported goodluck with the originial software and with out the recall bieng done obviously. Is it possible the dealer is just reflashing with the original software or does someone know for a fact its a different program.
turbocharged798
Veteran Member
No, its different software. A chip tuner said the entire Glow plug file is different on the new software than the original software.
Whether or not the original software works with the NGK glow plugs on long term remains to be unknown.
Jmac444
Active member
Do you know if somebody like malone tuning has the new glowplug software id rather just get a tuner a dowload the new file on my ecu than deal with the stealer there pretty incompetent in my area.
Jmac444
Active member
I emailed malone tuning the 7v ngk software is available through him. Its another option for everybody trying to avoid the stealer.
Richptl
Vendor
Sorry for the delay but I had the 7 volt NGK plugs with the "C" version glow plug control unit and the original ECU tuning. I got the ECU reprogrammed today at the dealership. Look back and you will see that I did some thorough voltage and current tests for the glow plugs. Basically I got about a 2 second pulse at 6 volts then the remainder at 4 volts with the NGK plugs and stock program. So the plugs have not been getting very hot or effective.
Once we get a little colder again I will park outside and report back on how it starts and what sort of voltage/current/time behavior I see with the 28F6/T9 program, NGK plugs, and "C" control unit (my car had the "A" originally).
Once we get a little colder again I will park outside and report back on how it starts and what sort of voltage/current/time behavior I see with the 28F6/T9 program, NGK plugs, and "C" control unit (my car had the "A" originally).
Jmac444
Active member
Mhmm i guess i could roll the dice and see how my car starts with "A" gp control unit or get the "C" gp control unit any input on this im getting flashzilla and going to put the new 7v ngk gp software on it.Where can i get the "C" gp control unit, i didn't see it on id parts website.
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QuickWrite
Veteran Member
Thx for the replies. Was just wondering if I go ahead and swap in this newer NGK part number if it would work without a reflash. Sounds like it will work, but may not be flawless.
Hey 798: "flawless" is a pretty strong recommendation, given all the sordid history with this glow plug reflash problem (cruise control problems, mpg reductions, etc.). So I gotta ask. Did you really mean to use that word? Does VW finally have its sh*t together on this reflash?
Hey 798: "flawless" is a pretty strong recommendation, given all the sordid history with this glow plug reflash problem (cruise control problems, mpg reductions, etc.). So I gotta ask. Did you really mean to use that word?
Does VW finally have its sh*t together on this reflash? Jmac444
Active member
From what I have read and who I have talked to just replacing the bosch 7v plugs with the 7v ngk works. Replacing the glow plug control unit with "C" version and reflashing with new software while using the ngk glow plugs works the best which is what im doing i ordered the new gp control unit today.
turbocharged798
Veteran Member
Well, I can't find any bugs in the software so that to me would be flawless. Starts instantly hot or cold no matter what temp. I can pull 50+MPG highway and has great power.Thx for the replies. Was just wondering if I go ahead and swap in this newer NGK part number if it would work without a reflash. Sounds like it will work, but may not be flawless.
Hey 798: "flawless" is a pretty strong recommendation, given all the sordid history with this glow plug reflash problem (cruise control problems, mpg reductions, etc.). So I gotta ask. Did you really mean to use that word?
I say this ECU firmware is pretty dang good from what I have experienced.
TdiTaff
Veteran Member
I have a 'C' version of the GP relay for sale, with 15K miles on it;
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=339036
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=339036
Richptl
Vendor
See some of my earlier posts for more diagnostic info. I have the NGK 7 volt plugs, the "C" glow plug control unit, and this week I got the dealer to flash with the new software.
What I found is that the "Pre-Glow" voltage now is 9.5 volts instead of 6.5 volts. It appears that the post-glow voltage is about the same. This should about double the wattage, and heat, during the pre-glow period.
Alas I don't really trust my ammeter all that well. I measure 0.6 ohms from glow plug jack to ground, and 0.2 ohms with my leads. But I wouldn't use the 0.4 ohms as effective resistance. With the glow plug control unit sending high speed pulses to the glow plugs, inductance also comes into play.
My best guess is effective impedance of about 1 ohm, which means about 10 amps or 100 watts (volts x amps) for that first few seconds. Since the 50 amps fuse at 12 volts supports 600 watts, and I expect the glow plug control unit to be 80-90% efficient, this seems to make sense, 400 watts effective output from 600 watts maximum input.
So in answer to some questions, there is more heating being offered with the recall tuning vs. using new plugs, new control module but no reflash.
Kudos to Maquire VW in Ithaca, NY as they did not balk about doing the flash with me having done the plugs/module, and someone in the service dept. called to say that they will submit to VW of America to get me my reimbursement for the module and plugs.
DeliveryValve
Veteran Member
Why are some people using the "C" version of the glow plug control module?
The 28F6/T9 service action TSB states it uses the "D" version for BEW Golf, Jetta/Jetta Wagon, and New Beetle.
Copy of the TSB.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3608552&postcount=176
Actual TSB document.
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/PD_GlowPlugTechBul_12-2010.pdf
.
The 28F6/T9 service action TSB states it uses the "D" version for BEW Golf, Jetta/Jetta Wagon, and New Beetle.
Copy of the TSB.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3608552&postcount=176
Actual TSB document.
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/PD_GlowPlugTechBul_12-2010.pdf
.
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Jmac444
Active member
I was under the impression it was "C" before reading the actual tsb, i guess ill be ordering "D" now unless somebody else states otherwise?
DeliveryValve
Veteran Member
After further research, the confusion is on the idparts.com website in which it lists the "D" for only the BRM engine, which contradicts the 28F6/T9 service action TSB in which the "D" version can be used on the BEW.
And it lists the "C" for the BEW.
If the BRM engined vehicles came with the "D" version, then it would make sense to me the "D" version not the "C" version would be used with the NGK plugged BEW's, since the BRM originally came with NGK's.
.