NEW 28F6/T9 Glow plug recall for 04-05 TDI

[Lightflyer1]

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[turbocharged798]

These?

http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2178

 

[PDJetta]

Yes, that's them. They are back.

--Nate

 

[bjmarler]

Ughhh, I can't believe this is still going on. LOL

 

[PDJetta]

And winter has not begun yet. Just wait, the poor starting posts will really come in!

 

[where2]

Glow Plug Recalls Continue...

Ughhh, I can't believe this is still going on. LOL

Dropped my, new to me, 165k mile '04 Jetta_Wagon with a BEW engine off at Wallace VW in Stuart, FL yesterday morning for the "preventative" timing belt/water pump/tensioner replacement, along with a REAL TDI oil change. As an added bonus, courtesy of VWoA, I got 4 new glow plugs, a new relay (AKA control unit), a re-flash, and a new glow plug wiring harness with 4 new connectors! Plus a new brake light switch.

Not a bad way to start restoring the maintenance to this older VW I just picked up. When the service advisor told me what I was getting for free, I thought it was BOGO day at the service department. (two outstanding recalls was no big surprise, I don't think this VW has seen a dealership since '05. I got it from the original owner!).

Based on my service paperwork, it appears I got the latest replacement parts. We'll see what happens if we get a real cold spell in South Florida this year...





I'd noticed it took a few cranks from time to time to get it going, unlike the twin '06 TDI's my wife and I have.

 

[bjmarler]

Where2, congrats on getting all that done. My 04 also had the recall done, but last year so it has slightly different glowplugs.

Mine never has to crank a few times in warm weather, it fires up instantly. It did take SEVERAL cranks in cold weather before the recall. After the recall it fires instantly in normally cold weather, unless it's about 10F or colder. Even then it only turns over perhaps 2 times before firing up.

 

[TDIdragon]

Has anyone in San Antonio or Austin had this done to their BEW? I had some serious issues with starting while in Colorado over Thanksgiving, and I am now considering getting a dealership to do this.

 

[Lightflyer1]

I have not been able to get it done at either Austin dealers.

 

[TDIdragon]

I have not been able to get it done at either Austin dealers.

What reason did they give you for not doing it?

 

[Richptl]

I changed the glow plugs earlier to the NGK Steel sheath at my expense. But I did a test today and no voltage to all of them, probably a bad control unit.

I think some of you have said that the recall has been providing new unit injectors as well. That is a realy bonus if true.

Scary as it is for me to take my car to a dealer, looks like I have to. Don't mind spending $40 out of pocket for the glow plugs, but with more expensive parts I don't want to shell out the cash if the recall will cover them.

 

[turbocharged798]

I changed the glow plugs earlier to the NGK Steel sheath at my expense. But I did a test today and no voltage to all of them, probably a bad control unit.

I think some of you have said that the recall has been providing new unit injectors as well. That is a realy bonus if true.

Scary as it is for me to take my car to a dealer, looks like I have to. Don't mind spending $40 out of pocket for the glow plugs, but with more expensive parts I don't want to shell out the cash if the recall will cover them.

Disconnect the coolant temp sensor, then test. You will get several seconds of glow time then before the ECU shuts them off. Control unit failures are extremely rare. I have never heard of one failing.

The issue is that nobody seems to know if the original software is compatible with the NGK glow plugs.

 

[PDJetta]

"I think some of you have said that the recall has been providing new unit injectors as well. That is a realy bonus if true."

I believe the TSB for this has expired.

--Nate

 

[Richptl]

Disconnect the coolant temp sensor, then test. You will get several seconds of glow time then before the ECU shuts them off. Control unit failures are extremely rare. I have never heard of one failing.

The issue is that nobody seems to know if the original software is compatible with the NGK glow plugs.

I did disconnect the coolant temp sensor when I did the test. I pulled the connector off the back of the Glow Plug control unit and ohmed out the 4 pins to indivual plugs, about 1.3 ohms on each, so that proves a good connection from harness to each plug. I got +12 Volt steady on the red wire to the 50 amp fusible link, 12 volts on ignition on another pin. A pulsing 3.5 volts about on one of the wires going to the engine's ECU.

So it sure appears to me that I have a defective glow plug control module.

 

[technocrat]

I did disconnect the coolant temp sensor when I did the test. I pulled the connector off the back of the Glow Plug control unit and ohmed out the 4 pins to indivual plugs, about 1.3 ohms on each, so that proves a good connection from harness to each plug. I got +12 Volt steady on the red wire to the 50 amp fusible link, 12 volts on ignition on another pin. A pulsing 3.5 volts about on one of the wires going to the engine's ECU.

So it sure appears to me that I have a defective glow plug control module.

Do you think the newer NGK N10591609 plugs somehow overloaded the control module? I was thinking about installing them without a software update, but now I'm not so confident. Please report back what you learn.

 

[Richptl]

Do you think the newer NGK N10591609 plugs somehow overloaded the control module? I was thinking about installing them without a software update, but now I'm not so confident. Please report back what you learn.

I am going to order a newer C version module from ID parts and report back what I find. But intuitively I would think that the lower voltage plugs would put more strain on the control unit. To get as much heat with lower voltage requires more current since watts = volts x amps. So a 5 V glow plug would seem to draw more current than a 7 volt or 11 volt glow plug.

I suspect that the old 11 volt plugs needed just a basic relay to switch power to the plugs, but we see the fancier electronic controllers for the 5 volt and 7 volt plugs. Also the nature of transistors is that they also generate a lot of heat when operating as voltage drop devices instread of switching mode (research linear vs. switching mode DC power supplies). For as tiny as the glow plug controller is, and the fact that it is plastic, I tend to think that it rapidly switches battery voltage to produce an average of 5 or 7 volts at the plugs. I work with variable frequency drives in industry and these devices switch at 3 to 10 kiloherz to simulate 60 Hz sine wave power. That is 3,000 to 10,000 pulses per second, no big deal for transistors.

 

[turbocharged798]

If you get the latest GP recall done, VW will replace the module with a new updated one. They replaced mine, no idea why though. It was working fine.

 

[Richptl]

If you get the latest GP recall done, VW will replace the module with a new updated one. They replaced mine, no idea why though. It was working fine.

I have a Q-Loader tune and GT1749VB non-stock turbo which throws a curve ball into my taking it to a dealer. I'll buy the Glow plug controller and then send the invoice into VOA, maybe they will re-imburse me.

Look for me to put some detailed info on diagnosing the glow plug control unit in the next few days. Bentley provides a good start to the process.

 

[Richptl]

Here is a detailed procedure for troubleshooting, testing, diagnosing the glow plug system on a 1.9 L BEW PD engine, year 2004 to 2005.5. Some help from Bentley, see 82/3 drawing in Bentley.

In my opinion the testing procedure is best to start at the Glow Plug Control unit. This is an electronic controller, not a simple relay. It is about 2" long by 1" by 1" black plastic and is located to the driver's side under the windshield cowling, not in the direct center. I had a VW part 038 907 281 A which I replaced with the C model.

Remove the wiper arms. Use a screwdriver to pry off the black plastic caps; they are quite tight. A 13 mm socket on the nuts. A good trick to pull the arms is using either a 19 mm or 3/4" open end wrench with one side on the stud and the other under the bottom of the arm socket. This can give you good leverage to pull the wiper arms off.

Remove the rubber seal on the edge of the plastic plenum cover (the cover the wiper pins poke through). I also advise pulling the 4 phillips screws and removing the cabin filter access cover. Then carefully remove the plenum cover. It snaps in. Slide it up the windshield. Be careful as the plastic can be a bit brittle especially when cold.

Now find that Glow Plug Control unit. It has one connector with 9 wires. Pull the connector off.

Key off testing:
Pins G1 to G4 fire the glow plugs. Black/Gray stripe for cylinder 1. Black/green cylinder 2. Black/blue cylinder 3. Black/red for 4. Ohm each pin in the connector to ground. You should have low resistance, I got about 1.4 ohms, counting resistance in the meter leads. By testing here you are checking the glow plugs, harness, and wiring all the way to the controller. A high resistance means a problem either in the plug, connector, or wire. If you check pin to pin you should have 2 x pin to ground. If for some odd reason pin-to-pin is low and pin-to-ground is high, that would mean two wires in the harness are broke and touching each other.
The heavy red wire to terminal #30 is to S263 50 amp fusible link on the battery cover, so you should have + 12 VDC here all the time, key on or off.
The brown/red stripe to terminal 31 is ground. Ohm this to another ground on the car to make sure that is okay.

Key on testing:
If everything above checks out go to the next step. According to Bentley you can pull the coolant sensor connector off to simulate a stone cold engine to get the ECU to run a full 20 second post/preglow time period. I DON'T THINK THIS IS CORRECT. THE COOLANT SENSOR WAS SHOWING THE FUEL TEMP ON MY CAR. SO I THINK THE FUEL TEMP SENSOR WILL BE USED AS A BACK-UP AND IF THE CAR IS IN A WARM GARAGE, YOU WILL NOT GET FULL OUTPUT. IT APPEARS TO ME THAT THE FUEL SENSOR HAS TO BE COLD AS WELL FOR A TEST OF THE BEW ENGINE GLOW PLUG SYSTEM. Cold motor and no output trigger could mean a bad coolant sensor, or a bad control relay. Would need VCDS to know for sure in that case. To pull the coolant sensor I removed the plastic section between the filter housing and turbo inlet air pipe. An 8" vise grip works as well for me as a more expensive tool for those metal lock rings.
With key on you will get + 12 volt on terminal 87 which is a yellow/black stripe wire. Confirm this with module unplugged, meter on the pin switch key on/off.
Now finally come the ECU control pins. DI is a green/black wire and ST is a blue/black wire. I found a pulsing voltage on one of these. I suspect there is some intelligence on these wires meaning sort of communication signal between the ECU and unit, so a simple voltmeter won't say much.
Now plug the unit it, but have the 10 mm nut off so you can move the unit. It's plastic; no grounding needed to have it work. Give your self some room to get an inductive ammeter around the glow plug wires. How can an inductive ammeter work you may ask? This controller sends rapid DC pulses to the glow plugs, which means a building/collapsing magnetic field. An inductive ammeter will pick up on this. I use a Fluke 87 true RMS meter in my day job as an HVAC engineer, so it will measure a pretty accurate RMS amperage. I read about 4.5 amps per plug and I am using the new NGK 7 volt plugs, ceramic with steel jackets. That would mean about 30 watts per glow plug at 7 volts. I don't know what the transistor pulse rate is, but I suspect pretty fast as the meter seemed quite stable. I work with variable speed drives quite often and these devices typically use 3,000 to 12,000 pulses per second PWM (pulse width modulation) logic and high speed transistors to create a simulated sine wave to vary the speed of AC induction motors. This glow plug controller is no where near as complex but I suspect a similar strategy of rapid PWM pulsing to produce an effective 5 volt (steel glow plugs) or 7 volt (NGK ceramic) output. Rapid transitor switching is more energy efficient than using a transitor as a resistive device. In resistor mode, my glow plug unit would dissipate 90 watts (4 x (12-7) x 4.5 amps) of heat which would quickly cook the little plastic module. WHEN I STRIPPED INSULATION BACK ON G1, I MEASURED A BURST OF 7 VOLTS FOR 2 SECONDS THEN 18 SECONDS AT 4 VOLTS. I AM DOING ANOTHER TEST ON A SUB-ZERO NIGHT.

Feel free to PM me with any added info. I would be curious to hear what other people see for amperage, voltage, wattage. With 7 volts and 1.4 ohms that works out to 5 amps and I read 4.5, so I surmised a proper voltage. You can poke a thin needle into one of the glow plug wires to measure operating voltage. Another way to test if you don't have an inductive ammeter. If you don't use a true RMS meter, you will probably read a lower current than actual.

Hope this helps some of you out.

 

[technocrat]

Has anyone had success with just using the new 7v glow plugs without changing anything else? My 2004 BEW jetta has bad plug and I'm inclined to just replace them all and keep the original module. SE PA doesn't see many really cold days so I suspect it will work just fine.

 

[Richptl]

Has anyone had success with just using the new 7v glow plugs without changing anything else? My 2004 BEW jetta has bad plug and I'm inclined to just replace them all and keep the original module. SE PA doesn't see many really cold days so I suspect it will work just fine.

Good question. The lack of knowledge about this whole glow plug issue still amazes me. I asked ID Parts for a wattage on the NGK 7 volt plugs and they don't know what it is. The 4.5 amps I read with my true RMS ammeter for my NGK's is a true reading, but my car did not start well when I parked outside this week while I was staying at a hotel. So I have suspicion that I have a 5 volt duty cycle with 7 volt plugs, which would be about half power (5^2/7^2).

The glow plug contol unit uses rapid pulse width modulation to send an RMS average 5 volts to steel glow plugs or 7 volts to ceramic NGK plugs.

Opposite of what you are asking, I would suspect that a 7 volt PWM duty cycle sent to 5 volt plugs would overheat them and burn them out, or possibly blow the 50 amp fusible link.

Maybe by the end of this winter we'll all know a lot more about this issue. But now I feel like a guinea pig.

 

[technocrat]

Good question. The lack of knowledge about this whole glow plug issue still amazes me. I asked ID Parts for a wattage on the NGK 7 volt plugs and they don't know what it is. The 4.5 amps I read with my true RMS ammeter for my NGK's is a true reading, but my car did not start well when I parked outside this week while I was staying at a hotel. So I have suspicion that I have a 5 volt duty cycle with 7 volt plugs, which would be about half power (5^2/7^2).

The glow plug contol unit uses rapid pulse width modulation to send an RMS average 5 volts to steel glow plugs or 7 volts to ceramic NGK plugs.

Opposite of what you are asking, I would suspect that a 7 volt PWM duty cycle sent to 5 volt plugs would overheat them and burn them out, or possibly blow the 50 amp fusible link.

Maybe by the end of this winter we'll all know a lot more about this issue. But now I feel like a guinea pig.

I just replaced the glow plugs. Removed the older 7V plugs and installed the newer 7V plugs with the steel shoulder. I had always thought that the primary reason for the recall was due to the discontinuation of the ceramic plugs because of the tips breaking. The new plugs are longer. In theory, since both plugs are rated at 7 volts they will perform similarly. They are resistive heaters. No telling how good my multimeter is, but measuring the old ones showed ~0.6 ohms and the new plug measured ~0.5 ohms. Could be resistance rises slightly with use. For sure the resistance is a lot higher when they are energized. I think I have an old battery charger that has a 6 volt setting. Maybe I'll glow one up and see if I can measure the power without burning myself.

 

[turbocharged798]

Has anyone had success with just using the new 7v glow plugs without changing anything else? My 2004 BEW jetta has bad plug and I'm inclined to just replace them all and keep the original module. SE PA doesn't see many really cold days so I suspect it will work just fine.

Truth is that we don't know if the Bosch programming is compatible with the NGK glow plugs. I have asked this question several times over and nobody knows. That's why I got the latest glow plug recall done with the latest software. Car starts and runs great now.

 

[technocrat]

I just replaced the glow plugs. Removed the older 7V plugs and installed the newer 7V plugs with the steel shoulder. I had always thought that the primary reason for the recall was due to the discontinuation of the ceramic plugs because of the tips breaking. The new plugs are longer. In theory, since both plugs are rated at 7 volts they will perform similarly. They are resistive heaters. No telling how good my multimeter is, but measuring the old ones showed ~0.6 ohms and the new plug measured ~0.5 ohms. Could be resistance rises slightly with use. For sure the resistance is a lot higher when they are energized. I think I have an old battery charger that has a 6 volt setting. Maybe I'll glow one up and see if I can measure the power without burning myself.

Experimentation showed similar response. The voltage current relationship changes as it heats up so I picked a nominal current indication and measured the voltage drop after about 10 seconds of glow time. The older plugs showed 5.05 volts at ~5.5 amps. The newer plug showed 5.10 volts at same current.

I went a little further with one of the old plugs; tried to find a convergence point. After glowing for more than a minute, voltage drop settled at 5.26 volts @ ~ 4.7amps. Glow plug was heating ambient air ~64 degF. Not sure if one can interpolate anything from this info but overall the two devices seem to be similar enough. Heated resistance could be estimated at about 1 ohm.

One thing observed was that current starts out high and voltage starts out low. This is probably a combination of the plugs changing resistance and the performance capability of my 1960's era sears battery charger (6 amp).

It is very likely that the engine computer varies the duty cycle over time, as well as the glow time. There is probably a pre-programmed map that is a function of engine temperature. The longer plugs have a slightly larger glow pattern. I suspect that the map was changed to accomodate the small differences in heat transfer properties; more of an optimization than a necessity.

For now I'm going to proceed knowing the risks. If the initial duty cycle map is more agressive than needed I will be changing glow plugs more often than before. If it is less aggressive then I will be doing repeat glow cycles on cold days to get started. I'm fairly confident there is nothing to worry about.

 

[PDJetta]

I just replaced the glow plugs. Removed the older 7V plugs and installed the newer 7V plugs with the steel shoulder. I had always thought that the primary reason for the recall was due to the discontinuation of the ceramic plugs because of the tips breaking. The new plugs are longer. In theory, since both plugs are rated at 7 volts they will perform similarly. They are resistive heaters. No telling how good my multimeter is, but measuring the old ones showed ~0.6 ohms and the new plug measured ~0.5 ohms. Could be resistance rises slightly with use. For sure the resistance is a lot higher when they are energized. I think I have an old battery charger that has a 6 volt setting. Maybe I'll glow one up and see if I can measure the power without burning myself.

I have a couple of brand new in the box N 105 916 01 Bosch ceramic 7-volt glow plugs, bought as spares right after I read here that they were being discontinued (paid about $50 plus for each of them at the dealer), since I am still using them. At 140,000 miles I have never had one burn out. Anyway, I just measured one of the NOS ceramic plugs with my VOM and as per above, it measures 0.6 ohms.

Using Ohm's Law, V = I X R, solving for I (power), V/R = I in watts. For the NGKs, at 7 volt modulated, 7 volts/.5 ohms = 14 watts. For the Bosch ceramics, you have 7v/.6 ohms = 11.667 watts. So the NGKs should provide 14/11.667 X 100, or 20% more heat. But all of this may not apply as the plugs warm up (resistance may change at different rates for the two plug types) and due to the ECU programming.

--Nate

 

[PDJetta]

"For now I'm going to proceed knowing the risks. If the initial duty cycle map is more agressive than needed I will be changing glow plugs more often than before. If it is less aggressive then I will be doing repeat glow cycles on cold days to get started. I'm fairly confident there is nothing to worry about."

Please report on the performance of just replacing the GPs with the NGKs. I may like to do this too and get rid of the Bosch ceramics. I never had the recall done because I do not want to loose my chip tune.

There isn't any chance the old programming, along with the old style GP realy (controller) could damage the NGKs to the point of breaking is there? Along with the ECU reprogramming, the CP controller was changed to I believe the "D" suffix part number (from a "C"). So we now have two variables for the NGKs--new ECU coding and an upgraded glow plug controller/relay.

--Nate

 

[turbocharged798]

Give rocketchip a call and ask Jeff if his tune with the Bosch GPs are compatible with the NGKs.

 

[PDJetta]

As you may know, we aren't the only ones who suffered from a) Bosch using ceramic glow plugs, and b) Bosch discontinuing them. Does this sound familiar? (hint--Jeep Liberty CRD owners went through a similar fiasco):

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/open-discussion/289233-heads-up-jeep-liberty-crd-owners.html

The Jeep Liberty CRD owners are on their own. Chrysler does not have a recall for the CRD 7-volt Bosch Rapitherm ceramics (they use a different Bosch number than the ceramics used in the BEW TDIs. I think they are longer), but will install a "kit" with 5-volt steel plugs, new controller, and reflash the ECU for a bunch of $. Even though VW did not handle this well, at least they covered the cost through a recall. I actually thought it was a US EPA mandated recall, so I wonder why the Jeep CRD owners were left out in the cold, so to say.

It appears that since there is no dealer recall for Jeep CRDs, many of the owners are leaving the ceramics in unless one or more burns out. An Itallian company just began producing direct drop-in replacements. They look to be steel and they are 7 volts.

http://www.jeepkj.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50246

--Nate

 

[technocrat]

"For now I'm going to proceed knowing the risks. If the initial duty cycle map is more agressive than needed I will be changing glow plugs more often than before. If it is less aggressive then I will be doing repeat glow cycles on cold days to get started. I'm fairly confident there is nothing to worry about."

Please report on the performance of just replacing the GPs with the NGKs. I may like to do this too and get rid of the Bosch ceramics. I never had the recall done because I do not want to loose my chip tune.

There isn't any chance the old programming, along with the old style GP realy (controller) could damage the NGKs to the point of breaking is there? Along with the ECU reprogramming, the CP controller was changed to I believe the "D" suffix part number (from a "C"). So we now have two variables for the NGKs--new ECU coding and an upgraded glow plug controller/relay.

--Nate

I really don't think there is any chance of increased breakage. Somewhere on the web I saw a hand sketch that attributed the breakage to carbon build-up inside the engine wall sleeve and a shearing event during removal. The design of the new plug would extend the tip further away from the build-up area and any shear load would now be on the metal shoulder instead of the ceramic part. Here is the link.

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/glow-plug-recall-pd-tdi.htm

I think Jeff at Rocketchip could provide more detail if asked.

 

[Fingers154]

"Using Ohm's Law, V = I X R, solving for I (power), V/R = I in watts. For the NGKs, at 7 volt modulated, 7 volts/.5 ohms = 14 watts. For the Bosch ceramics, you have 7v/.6 ohms = 11.667 watts. So the NGKs should provide 14/11.667 X 100, or 20% more heat. But all of this may not apply as the plugs warm up (resistance may change at different rates for the two plug types) and due to the ECU programming."

I think you're a little confused, PDJetta. The I in ohm's law is current. The formula you want for power is voltage squared, divided by resistance. So that's 49/0.6 = 82 Watts or 49/0.5 = 98 Watts.