New 2014 Cars

[greengeeker]

.....correct me if I have misread

The Mazda will be the first Asian diesel to be sold in the U.S., and also the first diesel used in a passenger car that does not require a urea-treatment system to comply with nitrous-oxide emission standards. Mazda credits the unprecedentedly low 14:1 compression ratio with the low emissions.

My 2010 JSW does not use urea.

In any case I am happy to see new additions to the diesel choices.

Good catch. the article is wrong on that point.

They were wrong on other points as well. Passenger vehicle are not regulated for nitrous oxide (N2O) emissions....NOx refers to nitric oxide (NO)and nitrogen dioxide (NO2).

 

[UTAH]

"The Mazda will be the first Asian diesel to be sold in the U.S."

Guess they forgot about the Toyota and Isuzu pickups in the 70's.

A family member had one of the Toyotas - gutless and it smoked bad. But that engine was still running when the rest of the truck rusted out around it.

Bill

 

[atc98002]

"The Mazda will be the first Asian diesel to be sold in the U.S."

Guess they forgot about the Toyota and Isuzu pickups in the 70's.

A family member had one of the Toyotas - gutless and it smoked bad. But that engine was still running when the rest of the truck rusted out around it.

Bill

Mitsubishi had one as well. Was sold as a Mitsu and a Dodge.

 

[jbright]

Ford Fiesta diesel (not going to be available in US):
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/ford/2013-ford-fiesta-econetic-ar127033.html

 

[FordGuy100]

Its awesome to see more options available for the US market.

Personally, the Mazda is something I'm going to follow closely. Although with that low of compression I wonder what the torque curve looks like.

VW better step up.

I really want to see a Jeep Wrangler diesel.

 

[birkie]

the first diesel used in a passenger car that does not require a urea-treatment system to comply with nitrous-oxide emission standards. Mazda credits the unprecedentedly low 14:1 compression ratio with the low emissions.

My 2010 JSW does not use urea.

Ah, the article doesn't give the Mazda enough credit. It is the first diesel passenger car that doesn't require any special NOx after-treatment of any kind! The Jetta/Golf uses an NOx adsorption catalyst which does not require urea, but does require frequent brief regeneration periods of rich (oxygen deprived) exhaust in order to catalyze away the NOx that it continually stores during normal operation. This method costs fuel, which is why urea-based catalysts on the Passat are more efficient. The Mazda does one better by requiring neither. Way cool!

 

[kjclow]

Ah, the article doesn't give the Mazda enough credit. It is the first diesel passenger car that doesn't require any special NOx after-treatment of any kind! The Jetta/Golf uses an NOx adsorption catalyst which does not require urea, but does require frequent brief regeneration periods of rich (oxygen deprived) exhaust in order to catalyze away the NOx that it continually stores during normal operation. This method costs fuel, which is why urea-based catalysts on the Passat are more efficient. The Mazda does one better by requiring neither. Way cool!

Article states that it doesn't require urea. Says nothing about not having a NOx trap or a dpf.

 

[birkie]

Article states that it doesn't require urea. Says nothing about not having a NOx trap or a dpf.

That's the part that the article misses. Mazda says it needs neither NOx technology. Don't know about DPF, though. NOx reduction is the impressive part, as I see it.
http://www.mazda.com/csr/environment/making_car/

This new-generation clean diesel engine achieves the world's lowest*1 compression ratio (14.0:1) for a diesel engine for a mass production vehicle and will comply with exhaust gas emissions regulations globally without the use of expensive NOx aftertreatment systems, such as urea SCR and NOx adsorption catalyst (LNT).

 

[tditom]

That is impressive, but it will have a DPF.

 

[RNDDUDE]

Note that the quote says the car "will comply with exhaust gas emissions regulations globally..". remember that NOx level requirements are lower everywhere than in the US, so it might not get to the US without additional aftertreatment hardware.

 

[GaGolfSup]

They're all vaporware until they show up on the lots. Is there a way to check which manufacturers have actually submitted their engines to be tested by the EPA?

 

[TomB]

Sounds like the 2014 A4 with the 2.0L TDI will be the Passat SEL Premium killer.

 

[TomB]

It's too bad the EPA have their heads up their asses. Honda, among others, has great clean diesel options available to the rest of the world:

http://efficientautomobile.com/2013-honda-accord-diesel-usa/

This tired old story again. The EPA regulations DO HELP our air. Anyone who has ever lived or been through CA knows this.

It is funny how when challenged the auto industry has found solutions to the issue of pollution. Look at the new generation Passats getting a ULEV II rating. A DIESEL getting an ultra low emissions rating would have been thought impossible without these EPA mandates.

 

[TomB]

True, but isn't it getting those other 'clean diesel' engines in compliance with our very strict standards that keep Honda, Toyota, Ford, GM, etc. from offering a diesel option here (as someone above said, there are engines made here in NA)? When I bought my TDI three years ago I was paying 1.99 for diesel and there were even fewer diesel options available then. I know all the hoops VW had to jump through between '06 and '09 just to sell them here again. Wasn't that the EPA?

Hahahaha. It is not the standard that keeps it out. It is the TESTING and CERTIFICATION to prove they meet the standard.

Just ask AMSOIL about why they don't go through the normal industry testing standards. It costs them precious profit $$$$'s.

 

[TomB]

Ah, the article doesn't give the Mazda enough credit. It is the first diesel passenger car that doesn't require any special NOx after-treatment of any kind! The Jetta/Golf uses an NOx adsorption catalyst which does not require urea, but does require frequent brief regeneration periods of rich (oxygen deprived) exhaust in order to catalyze away the NOx that it continually stores during normal operation. This method costs fuel, which is why urea-based catalysts on the Passat are more efficient. The Mazda does one better by requiring neither. Way cool!

The regen is for the DPF which captures the particulate matter. NOx is handled by retarded ignition and extensive EGR usage. The oxidizing catalyst processes the exhaust, it does not store it up, including NOx.

 

[HarleyGuy]

That Chevy Cruze Diesel looks pretty cool. I think the cruze is a nice-looking car, and I am fascinated by the Gasoline version that gets 42mpg. It uses the same engine as the Volt.

I wonder what MPG the diesel will get. Will it be worth paying an extra $4000 is the diesel only gets the same MPG as the gasoline?

 

[HarleyGuy]

This tired old story again. The EPA regulations DO HELP our air. Anyone who has ever lived or been through CA knows this.

Sometimes though the EPA makes dumb decisions. Their obessession with lowering NOx has eliminated lean burn in gasoline cars, and forced richer burns in diesel cars. The result in both cases is lower MPG which means burning more oil, and greater pollution overall (from drilling, refining, and transport). The cars' exhausts are cleaner but overall well-to-wheel pollution has gone up.

What the EPA should do is raise NOx 0.5 and lower CO 0.5 grams per mile. That would drive MPGs higher and be better overall for the planet's atmosphere.

 

[HarleyGuy]

Toyota has never made a penny on their hybrid tech to date, they have been writing it off as advertising costs and bought FAKE good will from CARB regulators...

Citation please. After the Prius was only on its 7th year of existence (3rd for the U.S.) Toyota said they were no longer losing money on its sale. The car had become profitable. That was 2003.

 

[birkie]

The regen is for the DPF which captures the particulate matter. NOx is handled by retarded ignition and extensive EGR usage. The oxidizing catalyst processes the exhaust, it does not store it up, including NOx.

Think of it this way: The Jetta/Golf contains three catalysts, and uses no consumables except fuel. Here are the three catalysts:

• Oxidation (situated directly in front of the DPF, packaged together in a single unit. DPF filter medium itself doesn't have any catalyzing elements in it)
• NOx Adsorbtion (situated after the Oxy+DPF unit)
• H2S (situated after the NOx unit)

Unfortunately, needs three different kinds of regeneration cycles to manage everything:

• DPF regen cycle to burn off the soot. Uses the oxidation catalyst and unburned fuel in exhaust stream to generate enough heat to burn off (oxidize) trapped carbon. This is the longest and most noticeable.
• NOx regen cycle to allow stored NOx to be reduced into N2. NOx reduction requires exhaust stream to be hot and rich. Diesel exhaust is usually lean, and doesn't support NOx reduction under normal operating conditions. That's why this catalyst absorbs NOx throughout operation, and cyclically reduces it away in a regen cycle. Rich operation in a diesel produces lots of soot, but thankfully there's a DPF for that.
• SOx regen. The NOx adsorber also latches on to SOx, which decreases its ability to handle NOx. A separate regen cycle is needed to release the SOx. This produces nasty H2S, which thankfully there's another catalyst to convert to SO2 before exiting the tailpipe

That is very complex! The Passat makes an improvement by replacing NOx adsorbtion technology with SCR technology. SCR technology operates continuously on the normal exhaust stream, with the help of urea. It doesn't need a rich regen cycle, and the problem of trapped SOx goes away. So we get rid of two regen cycles (NOx, SOx), and reduce the number of catalysts in the system by one (no H2S catalyst needed).

The Mazda improves on the Passat by removing the need for specific NOx treatment devices at all, so we can remove another catalyst from the exhaust stream!. This gives us lower cost and complexity. What's left is an just oxidative catalyst, and a DPF. Unless the DPF is disposable, there is one regen cycle associated with it for burning off soot. This is what makes Mazda's approach different from the others, and very intriguing.

 

[rotarykid]

This tired old story again. The EPA regulations DO HELP our air. Anyone who has ever lived or been through CA knows this.

It is funny how when challenged the auto industry has found solutions to the issue of pollution. Look at the new generation Passats getting a ULEV II rating. A DIESEL getting an ultra low emissions rating would have been thought impossible without these EPA mandates.

Give me a break, there really isn't any clean air to be gotten by over regulating vehicles that make up less than 1 % of what is on the road today. The over regulating by CARB of vehicles that have not been sold in CA since 1986 has not made the air any cleaner. If we still had the same regs that were in effect in the late 1990s we could increase the fleet size of ultra fuel efficient diesels to the point of making a real impact in consumption and have a negligible impact on air quality.

Enough with the singing of praises of our stupid overburdening emissions rules that have done nothing to clean up any air. All the current regs have done is block the most fuel efficient diesel powered cars from the US market.

 

[rotarykid]

Citation please. After the Prius was only on its 7th year of existence (3rd for the U.S.) Toyota said they were no longer losing money on its sale. The car had become profitable. That was 2003.

Yeah it has been so profitable that they have kept world wide production so low, below 6 % of world wide production of Toyota vehicles........ So profitable that they can't give hybrids away in countries where diesels are sold side by side...

Toyota uses of the hybrid tech as a ploy to make CARB happy, to bring up CAFE numbers to meet requirements, used as a advertising device a mark down for the losses per unit to get people in the showrooms to buy something else and for a fake feel good agent....

Something that Toyota has documented from experiences around the world that have shown that they could not continue to offer their "feel good" hybrid tech widely if they had to compete on their lots with diesel powered vehicles. Toyota has kept production low because the hybrid tech is a money looser never producing any more unit than are required to meet their goals. Producing just enough units to meet CARB and CAFE regulations, not one unit more! That is the plain and simple of it......

 

[DPM]

source?

 

[kjclow]

Give me a break, there really isn't any clean air to be gotten by over regulating vehicles that make up less than 1 % of what is on the road today. The over regulating by CARB of vehicles that have not been sold in CA since 1986 has not made the air any cleaner. If we still had the same regs that were in effect in the late 1990s we could increase the fleet size of ultra fuel efficient diesels to the point of making a real impact in consumption and have a negligible impact on air quality.

Enough with the singing of praises of our stupid overburdening emissions rules that have done nothing to clean up any air. All the current regs have done is block the most fuel efficient diesel powered cars from the US market.

Not wanting to hijack another thread, but CARB has done more harm than good to the industries in California, especially those in the LA basin. I call on paint companies that are trying to figure out how to keep the doors open with all the "fees" they have to pay. Those fees break down as: A fee on solvent they purchase for making paint. A fee for using that same solvent. Then a fee for selling paint that contains the solvent they already paid for twice. Sure some of this gets passed on to the consumer but look at the price of a gallon of paint. It really hasn't changed much over the last 30 years.

 

[wxman]

This tired old story again. The EPA regulations DO HELP our air. Anyone who has ever lived or been through CA knows this....

That may be true, but it's mostly because of lower NMHC/VOC emissions from gasoline vehicles that have been mandated by stricter emission standards. On-road diesel emissions really aren't as great as has been implied in Southern California even in 2000, which predated Tier 2/LEV II...

Lawson, D. R. "The Weekend Effect--the Weekly Ambient Emissions Control Experiment." Environmental Manager, p. 19 (July 2003).


(ROG = reactive organic gases (i.e., NMHC/NMOG/VOC))


Highway Diesel contribution to anthropogenic emission inventory...

ROG - 12.5/1115.3 = 1.12%
NOx - 227/1164.9 = 19.5%
CO - 62.3/7063.6 = 0.88%
PM10 - 8.1/360.2 = 2.25%


Highway non-diesel contribution to anthropogenic emission inventory...

ROG - 529/1115.3 = 47.4%
NOx - 495/1164.9 = 42.5%
CO - 5508/7063.6 = 78.0%
PM10 - 23.3/360.2 = 6.49%


Even normalizing for approximately equal fuel consumption (based on the CARB publication "Proposed Regulation to Implement the Low Carbon Fuel Standard." Volume I, Staff Report: Initial Statement of Reasons, Release Date: March 5, 2009)...


ROG = 59.5 tons/day (Diesel Vehicles); 529 tons/day (Gasoline Vehicles)
NOx = 1081 tons/day (DV); 495 tons/day (GV)
CO = 297 tons/day (DV); 5508 tons/day (GV)
PM10 = 39 tons/day (DV); 23 tons/day (GV)


NOx is really the only criteria pollutant that diesel would have significantly increased under this scenario, but ROG emissions would have significantly decreased. ROG is the pollutant most responsible for ground-level ozone accumulation (i.e., "smog").

All urban areas have been in attainment with the NO2 (nitrogen dioxide) NAAQS (ambient standard) since 1998 (i.e., under Tier 1 standards), so further reductions in the NOx standards beyond expected increase in traffic was unnecessary in that regard (even Euro 5 would reduce NOx emissions by about 67% below Tier 1). IMHO, CARB and EPA would have been better served to just permit diesel vehicles that were Euro 5 compliant.

Also agree with rotarykid that we're approaching diminishing returns from any further reductions in diesel emissions, based on EPA data...


EPA emission inventory - projected percentage contribution to total anthropogenic criteria pollutant emissions by "Highway Diesel" (HD) and "Highway non-diesel" (HND) sources @ 2030...

PM2.5 - 0.5% (HD); 2.7% (HND)
NOx - 2.5% (HD); 12.2% (HND)
NMHC - 1.0% (HD); 20.8% (HND)
CO - 0.2% (HD); 45.0% (HND)
SOx - 0.1% (HD); 0.5% (HND)

Source: U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Assessment and Standards Division, Office of Transportation and Air Quality, "Regulatory Impact Analysis: Control of Emissions of Air Pollution from Locomotive Engines and Marine Compression Ignition Engines Less than 30 Liters Per Cylinder." Tables 3-96 - 3-100 (Pages 3-108 - 3-112), EPA420-R-08-001a, May 2008


This is the anticipated contribution in 2030 based on standards that are currently in place. And this is just ANTHROPOGENIC emissions, never mind biogenic/naturally-occurring emissions.

 

[fordt]

I think the biggest diesel news is the new Jeep Grand Cherokee with the new VM Motori 3.0 l. It has a release/build date in April so far. Sure it's a new engine but Gale Banks already likes it because of it's design and strength. Combine that with a full size SUV that tows 7400 lbs, gets over 30 on the road (I predict 35 with the 8 speed tranny) and is still under 50K (BMW, Mercedes, Touareg) and I think Chrysler has a big winner. If they wise up and put it in a 1/2 ton Ram and the 300, other US car makers will be playing catch up!
Look up Mazda diesel "oil level" online, the Aussies and Europe are having problems with oil levels increasing in the engines at under 2000 miles...
I ain't selling my Golf yet, but that Dodge 2500 may go with that new Jeep coming!

 

[rotarykid]

source?

I spent several days collecting and posting links to the production numbers of diesels and hybrids a while back. You can do a search if you want to verify the stats I have given if you wish.

I have a friend that has worked for Toyota corp for ~18 years. She is the one that told me that Toyota has never made a dime on it's hybrid offerings. She has told me many times that costs, losses are written off as advertising cost to get buyers in the dealership to sell them something else. The costs are written off as bought "good will" from CARB. Only enough units produced yearly because of the current loss per unit to make governments in the US and around the world happy. And that Toyota will keep production levels only as high, not one unit more than are needed to meet the above goals and to meet coming yearly coming CAFE increases.

She also has more than once told me, this can be verified by a country by country search that in countries where diesels are widely offered they kill hybrid sales.


She and others I know at Toyota have told me that the company is terrified that it might have to at some point start offering diesel power in the US to meet CAFE if it increases to quickly. IF Toyota has to start offering diesel power in cars before the mid 2020s to bring up CAFE numbers this will kill the hybrids as a wide spreed offered option. From actual collected data in countries where diesels are widely offered no one in US corporate believes they could give away enough of the hybrid power to make it practical to continue to offer it widely here if it has to compete here with Toyota offered diesel power.

The stats I last found were that hybrids make up world wide 6-8 % of yearly Toyota productions and sales around the world.

From a search of world wide sales and production numbers Diesel equipped models made up just under 60 % of total world wide production and sales, that is without a single diesel powered model being sold in the US since 1986.

From a quick search I found this,

"To crush these rumors, Uchiyamada clearly stated that while the company would continue to expand its hybrid and plug-in hybrid footprint, it is also planning to take its in-house diesel development to the next level. “We have developed the world’s first diesel electronically controlled fuel injection system, and are currently busy working on the world’s first clean diesel with DPNR (Diesel Particulate matter and NOx Reduction). In 2008, we built our 20 millionth diesel engine which translates today to an average yearly production run of over 1 million engines, making us one of the biggest.”
To prove the point, he unveiled a newly developed 3.0-liter diesel for commercial vehicles and a 1.4-liter clean diesel for passenger cars, saying that Toyota will go from strength to strength in diesel engines. Toyota currently offers four-cylinder diesel engines on European-market cars like the Auris and Verso hatchbacks (pictured below)."

Gasoline powered offerings make up 32-35 % of total world wide production and sales.

 

[tditom]

BMW announcement from NAIAS:

BMW also plans to introduce three new diesel models to the U.S. in 2013, in addition to the highly successful BMW X5 35d, which reported a sales increase of 39% last year to over 10,000 vehicles (10,276). The 4-cylinder diesel will premiere in the 3 Series Sedan and Touring and the new 6-cylinder diesel will make its debut in the 5 Series. For the first time ever in the U.S., diesel AWD will be offered in the BMW 5 Series.

link

 

[HarleyGuy]

I have a friend that has worked for Toyota corp for ~18 years. She is the one that told me that Toyota has never made a dime on it's hybrid offerings. She has told me many times that costs, losses are written off as advertising cost to get buyers in the dealership to sell them something else. The costs are written off as bought "good will" from CARB.

If that's true, I should go buy a Prius as soon as possible. It's like getting a $25,000 car* for $20,000. Actually I was already shopping-round for a used Prius 2, just for the fun of driving one.

* including cost of battery, motor, electronics

 

[TomB]

I think the biggest diesel news is the new Jeep Grand Cherokee with the new VM Motori 3.0 l. It has a release/build date in April so far. Sure it's a new engine but Gale Banks already likes it because of it's design and strength. Combine that with a full size SUV that tows 7400 lbs, gets over 30 on the road (I predict 35 with the 8 speed tranny) and is still under 50K (BMW, Mercedes, Touareg) and I think Chrysler has a big winner. If they wise up and put it in a 1/2 ton Ram and the 300, other US car makers will be playing catch up!
Look up Mazda diesel "oil level" online, the Aussies and Europe are having problems with oil levels increasing in the engines at under 2000 miles...
I ain't selling my Golf yet, but that Dodge 2500 may go with that new Jeep coming!

The VM Motori is what kept me from buying the Liberty. I got the MB 3.0L V6 in the 2007 GC and was so glad I waited since it included the MB transmission. Ask any Liberty owner about their torque convertor and transmission issues!

 

[TomB]

That may be true, but it's mostly because of lower NMHC/VOC emissions from gasoline vehicles that have been mandated by stricter emission standards. On-road diesel emissions really aren't as great as has been implied in Southern California even in 2000, which predated Tier 2/LEV II...

I am comparing the visible air quality from 1980 until now. Record number of cars on the road, record miles driven, fuel economy is up, and population is even denser and yet the air is CLEANER in Southern California now than in 1980. It is the comprehensive plan that addresses ALL emissions of which cars were the worst.

Emissions controls WORK!

The gains in MPG, resulting in lower fuel consumption does not justify the extra emissions which are doing direct HARM to the lungs.

Diesel Particulate matter is the most deadly getting into the smallest of the lung passages, mirroring black lung.