need expert TDI assistance

[marlow2008]

Hello! I really need some expert TDI assistance. My husband and I filled up at a diesel pump for his 2005 VW Golf TDI and received bad fuel (i.e., not our fault!!! ). The oil company has paid to replace the fuel filter, fuel pump, and flushing the system, and they even verbally admitted to having to add some ethanol to those tanks back in June of this year. HOWEVER, the turbocharger is also shot (I've been told that the "housing" for it is broken)! We strongly feel that this is directly related to the bad fuel, especially since the car was working JUST FINE before we filled up! HOWEVER, we can't get the VW dealership service dept. to support this, and the oil company is not supporting it either.

The VW service dept. has given us a quote of $3100 to replace the turbo!! It's just really hard to believe that this isn't related to the bad fuel; especially since everything I've read says that the turbocharger is powered by the energy contained in the exhaust gas (thus, giving support to our belief that this was caused by the bad fuel).

One other thing to mention.... we were only able to drive the car abt 10 miles after filling up. We decided to stop after the car kept losing power and making a loud whistling/whuring noise. We made it to a NAPA shop in a small town near I-65 in AL (Greenville) and had the car towed from there to the VW place in Montgomery. While we were at the NAPA place, the workers (and community members) there helped us as much as they could, including replacing the fuel filter. The NAPA guy noticed how HOT the fuel was that came out of the filter when he took the old one off, which tipped him off in the first place that something was really wrong!!!!

Please post any comments or suggestions. None of this makes much sense to us, other than the fact that we tend to have bad luck on road trips . We love our TDI Golf and would hate to have to park it until we can afford to get the turbo replaced, especially since this has occurred do to the negligence of an oil company!

Thanks a bunch!!!

 

[marlow2008]

Someone mentioned on the Fuel Forum that we have a PD TDI, not a TDI. Anyone willing to explain the difference to me?

 

[2004STARWARSTDI]

TDI Vs PD TDI

Double posting is a no no. A PD TDI has a tandem fuel pump and runs on much higher pressures than a TDI. It also has a lift pump in the fuel tank. It requires VW approved 505.01 oil that you can not get a Walmart or any Jiffy lube. It has different fuel filter and different TB ect. Just a few of the differences.

 

[dieseldorf]

All TDIs sold in NAmerica from 2004 on are PD engines.

 

[marlow2008]

sorry abt the double post guys (i'm a newbie and only looked into a forum service b/c of our problem). fyi, my husband has been getting his oil changed at VW dealerships; so, i assume that they've been using the right stuff.

so, no one seems to think there's a relationship between bad fuel and the turbo going out? what makes a turbo go out? we have roughly 120,000 miles on the car. i've noticed mention of the correct oil twice. is there a relationship between bad oil and a turbo failure?

thanks again for the help!!! )

 

[2004STARWARSTDI]

120,000 miles PD TDI

Have you had the timing belt, water pump, tensioners and all necessary bolts, ect replaced at 100,000 miles? Assuming that the dealer uses the correct oil is a bad assumption. Do you have a warning sticker in your engine compartment that states use of non VW approved 505.01 oil could result in engine damage?

 

[marlow2008]

oh goodness, i don't know abt all that service stuff. this has been my husband's car since he bought it new, and we're newly weds (so i wouldn't know wha't been done on it previously, but i'll check into that). )

as for the oil, he's always made sure that they use "synthetic" oil, which is why his oil changes are always so darn expensive. ;o)

any other thoughts abt the turbo???

 

[2004STARWARSTDI]

synthetic oil

as for the oil, he's always made sure that they use "synthetic" oil, which is why his oil changes are always so darn expensive. ;o)

any other thoughts abt the turbo???

Not all synthetic oil is 505.01. Congrats on being married!

 

[Lefty]

You said they put Ethanol in the tank when they had a problem? Ethanol is not used in Diesel is it? The noise you heard sounds a little like a TB(Timing belt) problem as well.

Quote:One other thing to mention.... we were only able to drive the car abt 10 miles after filling up. We decided to stop after the car kept losing power and making a loud whistling/whuring noise.

Have you had the TB checked?

 

[marlow2008]

the diagnostic from the VW service is indicating that the turbo housing is broken/busted. before we stopped the car, it sounded almost like we were in a jet about to take off (but we crashed instead!). ;o)

i suppose that they would've found a problem with the TB if there was one.

what makes a turbo go bad?

 

[deadend9009]

not using the proper oil will kill your turbo if you go on long intervals between oil changes with the wrong oil. If a turbo is spooled too fast by constantly beating it at low rpms will kill it too. Did you get a check engine light before you shut her off?

 

[jcrews]

I wonder if running ethanol in a TDI would cause EGT to go through the roof. Is there any melting of the turbine? A housing or cartridge may be susceptible to cracking due to a high temperature gradient developing when the bad fuel passed through the engine.

My only evidence for the above is that the vehicle "kept loosing power." This would elicit a response from the driver to increase throttle input, putting more fuel in the cylinders, increasing hydrocarbon emissions, and therefore increasing EGT. Such a conjecture would demand testing.

A new turbocharger should be about $800 in parts. It can't take 24 hours of labor, the darn thing just bolts on.

 

[marlow2008]

these last 2 posts have a similar conclusion, especially the fact that our loss of power elicited "a response from the driver to increase throttle input, putting more fuel in the cylinders, increasing hydrocarbon emissions, and therefore increasing EGT" (that's EXACTLY what happened!). don't really know what the turbine looks like at this point. yes, there was a "check engine light on", but this had been on for a while b/c of a glow plug code, so no help there.

the VW service is 8 hours away from us (we broke down while on quite a long road trip). we're with you, "jcrews", in thinking that this was all brought on "due to a high temperature gradient developing when the bad fuel passed through the engine"! problem is, the VW service basically thinks there's no relationship between these 2 things.

we're planning to get second opinions on all of this on monday of next week, especially since the initial quote we were given for the job was so freakin high!!! i figured it was a fairly simple job, and i have found turbos online for less than $900.

thanks so much for your input, "deadend9009" and "jcrews"!!!

one more question for the readers....are all turbos powered by exhaust gas? are some powered by timining belts, and if so, how do we know which power source works for our car? if indeed ours is "belt-driven", then all of this speculation abt damage from bad fuel is a mute point...

 

[jcrews]

A turbocharger is a supercharger that has has a turbine, driven by exhaust gas. Supercharging is just the process of stuffing more air in the engine than would be accomplished by normal suction (Super==over or above). There are several terms that relate to supercharging devices-

Supercharger - Compressor driven by a belt.

Turbocharger - Like above, but the compressor is powered by an exhaust driven turbine.

Inertial - Natural aspiration method that uses long(er) intake manifold ducting to enhance low end torque. It is not true supercharging, but does accomplish an air mass/density increase at low speeds.

ALL TDIs use a turbocharger. 1999 and later engines employ a variable exhaust geometry nozzle system to enhance performance across a broader speed range than the older wastegate system would allow. Both control the amount of exhaust powering the turbocharger, thereby regulating the supercharging pressure and volume.

Definitely change the timing belt as soon as possible. Don't even drive it, because the tensioner bearing, idler bearings, and belt are well beyond their service rating. It's not a matter of if they fail, but when. Changing the belt components is MUCH cheaper than crashing the head when those components fail. The job has to be done in accordance with the service manual. That means engine locking tools are to be used, and certainly no "mark, then pay" "I've been doing this for 35 years..." kind of mechanics.

 

[mikica]

sorry to tell you that fuel has got nothing to do with your problem. I've seen a lot of turbochargers with that same problem. they just fail. not to get too much off the subject with the oils and belts. oil can be a factor but not if you use the right one an change it on time.

 

[Lefty]

I would be checking the receipts from the dealer who did the oil changes. Make sure they used the correct oil. If you don't have them ask the dealer for a copy. Just tell them you want to show records to a potential buyer. Ethanol is not used in Diesel's.

 

[d2305]

I had my turbo replaced under warranty and it came to around $2000.

 

[marlow2008]

thanks for everyone's thoughts! not sure where this will go at this point, but at least this has made us very aware that our car needs some TLC, especially a new timing belt (being that we've been blessed to make it to 120K on the original one!).

 

[thebigarniedog]

Go to the sticky section of the Tdi 101 and find a trusted mechanic in your area. Have that trusted mechanic look at your car and tell you their opinion. Please stay away from the dealerships. The rest is idle speculation considering the information provided.

 

[2004STARWARSTDI]

Tb

thanks for everyone's thoughts! not sure where this will go at this point, but at least this has made us very aware that our car needs some TLC, especially a new timing belt (being that we've been blessed to make it to 120K on the original one!).

Well if you had all the maintenance done at the dealer then I would not trust the dealer. You are 20,000 past TB! It could break any time and you would incur a$5000 bill for replacement of engine. This would not be covered under any warranty. Check trusted Pd TDI guru list, order deluxe TB kit and have one installed ASAP by guru!

Trusted TDI Mechanics - By State - TDIClub Forums

 

[TornadoRed]

There is almost no solid information in this thread, but I get a sense that
1) routine maintenance has been neglected, with a timing belt change seriously overdue, and
2) there may be a problem with the turbo, but a dealership is quoting a price that is nearly double what it really ought to cost.

The OP should start over, providing all relevant information about previous maintenance. And the OP (or her husband) should get that TDI away from that dealership and other places that don't specialize in TDIs (like NAPA).

 

[marlow2008]

We're working on getting her (the Golf) to the nearest TDI guru. I'm not comfortable driving the car any further on this timing belt (we certainly don't need to have to replace the engine too !!!), so we're going to be in search of a "car transport service" too. Anyone know of any of these located in the Montgomery, AL area???

Once we actually get the car back home to us in Charleston, ALL service with be done by the TDI guru about 20 minutes away in Summerville. The posting of the state-by-state experts in an EXCELLENT resource !!!

 

[marlow2008]

UPDATE...dealership is saying reason for the "failed" turbo is b/c of "cracked housing". what causes this? can excessive exhaust temperatures be a factor?

 

[dieseldorf]

Are u getting a clearer picture of what transpires at the typical dealership

UPDATE...dealership is saying reason for the "failed" turbo is b/c of "cracked housing". what causes this? can excessive exhaust temperatures be a factor?

And just how many "technicians" did it take to figure that out

 

[Lefty]

Cracked Housing! I guess that could happen if the housing was faulty to begin with or something hit it really hard. Or heat and dry conditions maybe.I am no expert far from it but,how is your motor mounts? Does the engine shake a lot? If the turbo blew then it would crack.

Just get it to the Guru and you'll be back in it and happy with the results.

 

[marlow2008]

LOL!!! I dunno?!?!?! Any ideas abt this being the fault of the oil company???

 

[Windjammer]

Are you 100% sure you got bad fuel. If the turbo failed, the car would do exactly as you described. Maybe the turbo failed first. What caused you to point to the fuel?

 

[thebigarniedog]

Go to the sticky section of the Tdi 101 and find a trusted mechanic in your area. Have that trusted mechanic look at your car and tell you their opinion. Please stay away from the dealerships. The rest is idle speculation considering the information provided.

Please see the above. Nothing else need be said. Take the vehicle to a forum Guru (i.e. trusted mechanic) period. They can provide you with detailed insight to the problem. In a different thread Darkscout summed it up correctly by analogizing these type of threads to being tantamount to telling your Doctor that your foot hurts with no further explanation and expecting a relevant response or diagnosis. As the devil is in the proverbial details (year, make, model, mileage, mods, service provided to date and by whom on your vehicle, how the vehicle sounds/drives etc) your putting us in the unenviable position of responding to your postings by asking 20 more questions. This is not meant as a slam or slight (please do not take it as such), but consider that your mechanical understanding and postings too date show a very limited understanding of your vehicle similar to what most of us would expect from talking to our VW dealers --- which is why we don't go there. Good luck.

 

[thebigarniedog]

Our hidden cameras captured a recent conversation that occurred at the typical VW Dealership:

 

[TornadoRed]

It appears that the Golf is in Montgomery AL, about 435 miles from home in Charleston. Too far to tow it home, pretty far to tow it to one of the TDIClub gurus in Atlanta, and I don't know of anyone reliable in Alabama. There seem to be a lot of members there, and one member with username bensache claimed to know of a timing belt expert.

Marlow2008 needs to find a way to get it away from that dealership. Otherwise it's going to end up costing $1000 too much or maybe more.