Need alh help

bubs526

Active member
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Location
Illinois
TDI
None
Hi I am new to tdi life. I bought this car did not run timing belt jumped. Pulled head had new valves guides and seals done. Measured the piston protrusion all with in spec. Put engine back together. Installed 11mm pump was going to build another engine later on but could not get the 10 mm pump that was on the engine to prime. Cleaned and check injectors found that the previous owner had put 764 nozzles in it car has what I believe to be a turbo upgrade as well bv-39 egr delete as well. Got car running but here is where the problem lies. Has excessively long crank before it starts. Idles beautifully revs. Checked with vcds and fuel timing is right in the middle of the graph. Let sit over night does not loose prime but does not want to start just crank and crank until it finally starts. Need help.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
New to tdi
Had a 11mm pump laying around for another build?

What?
 

bubs526

Active member
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Location
Illinois
TDI
None
Yes once I bought the car and found that the engine was messed up I started reading about power upgrades and found another engine that came from automatic locally to me bought another engine that was seized for 200$ bottom end in that one is locked up. I tend to dive in with both feet
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
So 764's are monster nozzles, hope you have a EGT gauge on that turbo!
I ran a gt2052 with those nozzles and a bunch of stuff. If you do not have a big turbo with big boost, you need to have the QA on the IP set to about 6 to 8, not the 3 to 5 that the stock engine has. This might be your issue!I would re verify that all the timing is correct physically. just a tiny bit off can cause starting issues when cold, even if the graph says its good, the cam and crank might be off, that is typical as the lockout for the IP is good enough for it.
You might want to check the 109 relay and verify that the wiring to the IP and all that is in great shape. look over every wire in the loom. VERY common to have issues with broken wires.
Check that the harness at the head is grounded. the little eye that bolts to the head must be grounded . its next to the big bulb connection on the main harness at your right hand side of the head.
there is a really good troubleshooting no start guide here. check it out!
 

bubs526

Active member
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Location
Illinois
TDI
None
There is an egt sensor in the manifold no gauge not sure what QA is or IP is either sorry like I said new. I sent base timing with metalnerds timing tools re did it twice like I said I could not get the original pump to prime. So I installed the 11mm pump after a lot of priming with vacuum pump and lots of cranking finally got the new pump to fire off. I had one of my guys with a scope come over and verify that the fuel pump was getting all the correct voltage to turn on and work.
 

bubs526

Active member
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Location
Illinois
TDI
None
ok just looked up the QA I did look into that when I was trying to get it running. I could not find any values to change it to get it running. When cranking that mg goes to 50 and stays there.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
look up hammer mod.
it will explain everything.
VCDS is nessasary... im assuming you have it as you said the timing ont he graph was correct.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
The ECU only need a remap. A Software for your running Hardware. Thats All. No hammering or anything else.
Hammer mod is essential to dial in the IP for large nozzles. It can be fine tuned with software in vcds but you must make sure it's not to high(low number). This is directly from tuners like kerma.
I agree you do not need to be hammering on the engine but please understand what your saying first.
You can run forever with no tune and the car will run just fine on any nozzle you put on it or turbo. It will have tons of power and will constantly go into limp mode when told to over boost! Ask me how I know.
A tune optimizes everything and really is amazing bit not absolutely nessasary and not required to get it to start.
If the QA was way to low then it would never start.
Same with way to high.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
The ECU only need a remap. A Software for your running Hardware. Thats All. No hammering or anything else.
I had said that to help this user understand what IQ and QA and how vcds is used for running the IP. And his problem has nothing to do with software at all.
 

bubs526

Active member
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Location
Illinois
TDI
None
so what are good numbers that I should be looking for when trying to get it started? I see the adjustment that says 32768. Where should I go from here?
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
No offense, I didn't mean to offend you. I know exactly what you're trying to say. But just because your experience teaches you that it always worked out well, it doesn't mean the whole truth. All this can be achieved with programmed pump voltage and SOI in the software without changing the pump mechanically.
While you are correct.... that is only so limited in what it can do. It's a range you can set that is defined with where the QA sits on the IP. Seeing as this has massive nozzles it must be hammer modded via tuners instructions then fine tuned in vcds if you wish.
 

Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
You come from the land of Dodge and Chevrolet. I from where the TDI was born. What do you think who knows more about this?
Software does not mean vcds but the ECU software.
This will adjust all hardware.
Hammer mode is just a bend so that the values in the vcds fit and the pump is misaligned.
You know nothing of me. I never owned either of those and my bread and butter is in TDIs. I come from the land of these forums and over 10,000 hours of reading and talking with runners.
I come from a home with a disabled child that gives me 4 hours every night on my watch to read here. Last 5 years I have learned more than I ever knew.
I'm not saying that this is OPs issue but from the mods... this is where I would start.
I've said my bit. Understand it or not... I'm out of this part of the conversation as there is no more to say.
 

jmodge

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
I really need help getting this car running
Is it smoking excessively while trying to start it, or right after it starts? If so, what color?
 

jmodge

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
I get the idea from your description it runs good? Another thing about these engines, the faster they crank over the better they start. Any leak in your fuel lines, such as an oring, can cause enough air to get in while sitting to make it hard to start. It doesn't take much air, So can a leaking injector. The nozzle will be damp with fuel if they are leaking.
32768 is the base value for IQ in VCDS. At that value your IQ should read somewhere in the 4.5 to 5.5 range idling and fully up to temp. If it isn't, the hammer mod is used to bring it back to that range. So you need to start your car and warm it up to check IQ.
Big nozzles for a small turbo, it may or may not have been remapped, but would definitely benefit from it.
Cranking speed, fuel bleeding down, IQ. That's where I would start looking.
 

jmodge

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Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
The hammer mod matches your base value to roughly the center of your IQ range, which is 2-9. This way you can achieve adjustment via the VCDS throughout that range. Pumps wear and that alignment changes over time.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
The hammer mod matches your base value to roughly the center of your IQ range, which is 2-9. This way you can achieve adjustment via the VCDS throughout that range. Pumps wear and that alignment changes over time.
It's actually 1 though 10 but anything outside of 2-9 are non running. I had mine way down at 1.2 to 1.4 on my 764s
 

jmodge

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Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
It's actually 1 though 10 but anything outside of 2-9 are non running. I had mine way down at 1.2 to 1.4 on my 764s
with his turbo he probably doesn't have enough air for that much fuel, that's for smoking the wheels off
 

bubs526

Active member
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Location
Illinois
TDI
None
Sometimes it smokes gray/white while cranking. Sometimes whiles cranking it doesn’t smoke at all. But it takes a lot of cranking like 10-15 mins of cranking for it to finally start.
 

jmodge

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Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 5speed daily commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/502's backroad cruiser
Next time you go to start it, crack the lines loose at the injectors to bleed any air out. Then see if it starts easier. That should tell you if it is leaking fuel. Does it smoke after it starts?
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
IMO this seriously sounds like a wiring issue to the IP.
This would not be the 1st time and in my experience at this point in a trouble shooting i would go to vcds and do a sweep test on the cam arm to see if it does its job. If not, the IP is not getting directions from the ECU.
If i remember correctly its the white wire on the main IP harness that does this.
I have been able to start a few AHU and ALH with broken wires or unplugged harnesses.... it takes about 15 minutes of cranking.....
 

bubs526

Active member
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Location
Illinois
TDI
None
Do you know what voltage it is supposed to have because I had my friend who has a scope come over and we checked everything I believe. But it never hurts to double or triple check.
 

powermandan

Active member
Joined
Apr 5, 2021
Location
Worcester UK
TDI
ABL, AHU, AFN
There should be a one way check valve on the fuel pump. My understanding is that it is built into the return fitting although I have never checked.

Depending on where the fuel pump came from and where the fittings came from, it may not have it or may be faulty. I believe land Rovers didt have it as they have a lift pump.

So you could either check the fitting or fit a hand priming bulb which contains a check valve to stop it bleeding down overnight.

The other possibility is you have an air leak on your pump or supply pipework which is allowing it to bleed down.

With regards to hammer mod. It can be done 100% in software by altering the pump voltage map by a tuner or by yourself if you choose to delve into mapping. If you have no intention of ever getting it mapped then break out the hammer. My observations with it are that it only really effects idle and transition from idle to 1500RPM approx as you are only really talking about 2-3mg of fuel per a stroke difference. Once your past 1500RPM 2-3mg of fuel makes little difference to the amount of smoke you are creating.

Edit: just re read your post. You say it doesn't loose prime. How are you determining that?
 
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PakProtector

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Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Location
AnnArbor, MI
TDI
Mk.4 and the Cummins-es
OK, so an 11mm set up to run in an auto is going to have low numeric IQ when run on manual calibration( just like telling an auto it is now manual after a swap to 5sp ). Now this did not cause me starting issues...idled like a gasser with a big cam until I moved things via the hammer mod.
cheers,
Douglas
 

braddies

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2021
Location
America
TDI
03 golf ALH
Ok, for clarification :-D, how often do you think an 11mm pump would require a hammer mod when swapped to a manual, before you can adjust iq appropriately in vcds?
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
probably every 200k miles, its not really necessary though. on a completely stock car the value can go from 3 to 5 with nearly no consequence.
You can run a 3 to 5 and get the same MPG advanced or retarded as long as its within the graph. but when it comes to performance stuff you can have gains here and there with this.
its more often that the seals need to be replaced than the hammer mod needs to be adjusted. Its more so for when a nozzle service is done.
dont go to far reading into this! Its a fuel pump. not very complicated and some here feel that its necessary to make them manual with no electronics because tin foil hats are a thing!
 
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