Need advice on HPFP failure

[evoblade]

Added to permanent thread here.

I have 167k and it looks like my HPFP bit it. I'm not really sure where to go on this one. I guess there is a change VW will pay for it. I sure can't. If they don't want to I guess I can get the NHTSA to lean on them a bit. I thought if it hadn't failed by now, it wasn't going to happen. I guess I was wrong.

 

[tdiatlast]

NHSTA can/will do nothing for you.
VWoA might pick up the tab, although at 176k miles, they can always insist that any fuel pump could fail at such high mileage.
The reason I'd insist on having VWoA pay for this is the collateral damage caused by a fuel pump failure. $1500 for a failed fuel pump replacement isn't outrageous, but $5k + for an entire fuel system replacement IS outrageous.
If VWoA balks at paying 100%, I'd lean on them to pay part/most of it. I'd also try to stay as calm as possible.

 

[evoblade]

Ok. What do you think the best approach is? Have it towed from my mechanic and don't mention that I've already had it looked at or be upfront with them (tell them about the sparklies in the fuel before I get it towed in).

 

[Tuco]

I would call the dealership and explain everything, tell them you had it towed to your usual mechanic, and he thinks it's the hpfp. See what they say.

 

[evoblade]

I would call the dealership and explain everything, tell them you had it towed to your usual mechanic, and he thinks it's the hpfp. See what they say.

Well, I'm getting a free tow from my car insurance. I just told the dealer the issues I was having. I did not mention getting it looked at by the independent mechanic. I didn't tell them otherwise, I just left that part out. I'm not going to lie about it, but I'm probably not going to mention it unless it helps my "case". Basically right now, I can't afford $5000 for an auto repair. So if they won't do it for free, I'm going to have to look at buying something cheap and getting rid of the TDI, which is a shame, because I love the car and planned on keeping it for a very long time.

I guess I could have asked ahead of time, but since I was going to get a second opinion anyway, I figured I would just take my mechanic's advice and not ask in advance. Plus I was talking to the scheduler and not the actual service manager, so I figured there was not much point in doing more than describing my symptoms.

 

[psrumors]

It sure would be nice if 2Micron would produce more of their kits or VW would make available a kit like 2Microns that would stop the debris from contaminating the rest of the fuel system.

 

[tdiatlast]

I've moved this post from the HPFP failure thread. I recommend you delete your post that provoked my response, to avoid confusion.

evoblade: First of all, I'm sorry for your HPFP failure, and the expense and inconvenience related to the failure.
I'm going to offer my own speculative perspective on your failure. It is based on what I've read here over the past 5 years, and of course, is loaded with opinion. I'm sure others will add their thoughts, as yours is (I think) the highest mileage HPFP failure that has been posted here.

It's quite possible your HPFP just wore out. There's a Bosch paper (somewhere on this site...it should be made into a sticky!) that states very clearly what the expected lifespan of the CR HPFP will be if fed fuel with specific lubricity values (HFRR: High Frequency Reciprocating Rig)
IIRC, if fed the then typical USA fuel with a minimum HFRR of 520, the life expectancy is around 150k miles.
If fed the Bosch requested fuel with HFRR rating of 460, the life expectancy jumps to 250k, again, IIRC.
I'm only stating what has been discussed at length in the various HPFP failure threads. I'm not stating anything new.
I see you post that you did NOT use additives. IF (lots of big "IFS" here!) you've been fueling with HFRR 520 fuel, I might conclude that your HPFP actually failed beyond the period expected by Bosch.

All of this is clouded by the wide variability of diesel fuel lubricity. We just don't know what goes into our cars.

 

[tditom]

...
It's quite possible your HPFP just wore out. There's a Bosch paper (somewhere on this site...it should be made into a sticky!) that states very clearly what the expected lifespan of the CR HPFP will be if fed fuel with specific lubricity values (HFRR: High Frequency Reciprocating Rig)
IIRC, if fed the then typical USA fuel with a minimum HFRR of 520, the life expectancy is around 150k miles.
If fed the Bosch requested fuel with HFRR rating of 460, the life expectancy jumps to 250k, again, IIRC.
I'm only stating what has been discussed at length in the various HPFP failure threads. I'm not stating anything new.
I see you post that you did NOT use additives. IF (lots of big "IFS" here!) you've been fueling with HFRR 520 fuel, I might conclude that your HPFP actually failed beyond the period expected by Bosch...

The Bosch presentation I'm familiar with shows operating hours vs wear. Do you have one that shows miles/km?

 

[evoblade]

Interesting point regarding the life expectancy of the HPFP vs fuel quality. If I had known this thing was going to go and take my whole fuel system with it, due to poor lubricity of US fuels, I would not have bought it. I honestly think VW should not sell diesels if 520 HFRR isn't good enough for the HPFP to last the life of the vehicle (250k), considering the consequences of failure. I know it seems to be asking a lot for a part to last 250k+ miles, but considering the collateral damage of a failure, and that it is the single most expensive part on the car (barring the engine grenading), I think it is a good goal.

It also seem very irresponsible for VW to recommend against additives when they know 520 HFRR doesn't cut (but 460 would probably be fine). I guess they don't want people to think their cars need additives to survive. Unfortunately it appears they do.

I wanted this car to last 300k miles. I really enjoyed it. However, 167k may be the end of the road. A real shame.

 

[Dirtracr95]

Interesting point regarding the life expectancy of the HPFP vs fuel quality. If I had known this thing was going to go and take my whole fuel system with it, due to poor lubricity of US fuels, I would not have bought it. I honestly think VW should not sell diesels if 520 HFRR isn't good enough for the HPFP to last the life of the vehicle (250k), considering the consequences of failure. I know it seems to be asking a lot for a part to last 250k+ miles, but considering the collateral damage of a failure, and that it is the single most expensive part on the car (barring the engine grenading), I think it is a good goal.

It also seem very irresponsible for VW to recommend against additives when they know 520 HFRR doesn't cut (but 460 would probably be fine). I guess they don't want people to think their cars need additives to survive. Unfortunately it appears they do.

I wanted this car to last 300k miles. I really enjoyed it. However, 167k may be the end of the road. A real shame.

Show me where VW is against additives in diesels.

Im happy living in IL where pretty much every pump is a ~b11 blend.

Since it was still running before you shut it down you could just do the pump and hope for the best. If it runs you can keep driving it or trade it in.

 

[redbarron55]

This is why I bought and installed the 2Micron system a year ago.
I don't know why he is not still selling them. They go in nice and look like high quality pieces.
Does anyone have some information from him or is he just busy with other projects?
This system changes the failure from OH C@%P to $900-1000 Oh well it finally gave out at 200,000 miles plus.
Currently I am at 209 K miles and with some work from Dax at Skunkwerks in Louisville KY I think I am in good shape for the long haul.
By the way let me reccommend Dax and Skunkwerks for the great job he did on mt 2009 JSW.
Thanks Dax.

 

[Claudio]

Here is a post of a person that got it covered by VW at 145K miles

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4595835&postcount=18

 

[JM Popaleetus]

Show me where VW is against additives in diesels.

Volkswagen's official stance since the 2009 model year is that they do not recommend any additives.

It's in your manual.

 

[evoblade]

The VW dealership called to say it would be about $6500 and gave me the number to VWOA. I called them and they took my info and decided to escalate the case to a "regional case manager". Fingers crossed.

 

[evoblade]

Here is a post of a person that got it covered by VW at 145K miles

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4595835&postcount=18

Well, that gives me some hope. They mentioned when they said they escalated it that if they did pay for it, they would only pay for parts and labor and not any diagnostics or any other work I would get done. I guess that sorta gives me hope, because they haven't indicated they were leaning towards "no", but they definitely haven't said "yes" yet either.

 

[Matt927]

Volkswagen's official stance since the 2009 model year is that they do not recommend any additives.
It's in your manual.

Actually it is not. VW prohibits additives in gasoline engines. The section in my manual with regards to diesel fuel prohibits starting assist fluids and does not mention additives either way.

 

[psrumors]

The VW dealership called to say it would be about $6500 and gave me the number to VWOA. I called them and they took my info and decided to escalate the case to a "regional case manager". Fingers crossed.

Did the dealership happen to call VWoA? Seems some dealers are very proactive and talk to VWoA to try and take care of the customer while other dealerships just refer to the customer to VWoA

 

[BT3076]

That's a shame man, I'm sorry to hear about the pump going out. I'll be crossing 100k here soon in my 10 and had the same attitude- if it lasted this long then I'm prob OK. Seems this thing could hang over our heads until it actually goes or another vehicle is purchased to replace it. Just a thought though and I'm sure its been discussed previously, has anyone considered doing a preemptive strike and changing the pump when they do a tbelt? I found the Bosch rating interesting on these pumps and it seems they aren't meant to last the life of the engine reguardless of how it's driven/any additives used. I don't even know the price of a pump... Just trying to think of a way to combat it if there's any way...

 

[psrumors]

That's a shame man, I'm sorry to hear about the pump going out. I'll be crossing 100k here soon in my 10 and had the same attitude- if it lasted this long then I'm prob OK. Seems this thing could hang over our heads until it actually goes or another vehicle is purchased to replace it. Just a thought though and I'm sure its been discussed previously, has anyone considered doing a preemptive strike and changing the pump when they do a tbelt? I found the Bosch rating interesting on these pumps and it seems they aren't meant to last the life of the engine reguardless of how it's driven/any additives used. I don't even know the price of a pump... Just trying to think of a way to combat it if there's any way...

The remanufactured pump can be had for less than $700 online. I've asked the same question as far as changing it at that TB interval.

 

[Zlartibartfast]

Mine blew out @ 28K miles. It was a 1st gen Bosch pump (car built in August 2008). The dealer was very cooperative - they asked me if gasoline had ever been put in the tank; I told them no way, I always bought fuel from a national distributor (Shell, Chevron, Valero) and I added 4 oz PS Diesel Kleen every time. They were OK with that.

In my county, we get B5 at the pump, so I'm confident there has ALWAYS been sufficient lubricity in the fuel.

My other common-rail diesel, a Jeep w/MB 6 cyl, has no such failure on record that I have found. It's max rail pressure is 26K PSI. I have seen the Jetta hit nearly 29K more than once. I think this is pushing the envelope pretty hard.

anyway, good luck in your interaction w/VWOA.

 

[evoblade]

Thanks for the good wishes. VWOA has assigned me a regional case manager, so we will see what happens. If I had it to do over again I would do the following:
1. Either additives or add some biodiesel to get some reasonable assurance that I was below 460 HFRR lubricity. I really didn't realize until reading up after the HPFP gave up the ghost that this was an issue. I thought as long as I didn't misfuel I would be fine.
2. Change out the pump with the timing belt at 120k. As it stands I shouldn't have to worry about that again. If the car goes another 130k it will be at 300k. I really don't see it lasting much longer than that. I guess if I am feeling rich at the 240k belt change I would do it then, but that would only be 70k on the new pump. If the new pump doesn't make it to 240k, then I'm done with the car. But this is all conjecture, since I don't even know if I am going to fix it yet.
3. Investigate possibility of 2MICRON system to keep pump failure from taking out the fuel system.
4. Stay away from podunk gas stations. Stick to shell/BP/etc. I think this may have been part of my downfall, not being picky enough where I fuel up. Water contamination, gasoline contamination, or crappy fuel may all be a problem and I pretty much filled up wherever I could find the proper size fuel nozzle. I preferred BP and shell, but didn't avoid sketchy looking independent stations as much as I could have. Not waiting until the tank is getting really low would probably help a lot. Sometimes beggars can't be choosers and a surprising number of gas stations in SC do not have diesel at all, or only have some crappy old non-digital pump with the giant nozzle which does not fit in my fuel spout.

 

[evoblade]

Did the dealership happen to call VWoA? Seems some dealers are very proactive and talk to VWoA to try and take care of the customer while other dealerships just refer to the customer to VWoA

If they called them, they didn't mention it to me and it seems like they wouldn't refer me separately to them if they had already done that. Unless they want VWOA to say "no" to me and they already know that is the answer from the regional case manager.
I was told Wray VW has a good relationship with VWOA, but it seems they didn't utilize that to help me out. I would have really appreciated that. We will see what happens.

 

[BT3076]

Can you shed more light on the 2 micron system you're referring to. Is it a put together kit or do you piece it together and where is it installed in the fuel system?

 

[psrumors]

Can you shed more light on the 2 micron system you're referring to. Is it a put together kit or do you piece it together and where is it installed in the fuel system?

Read here; http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=375803

 

[Matt927]

evo,

I think you will find that a high turnover station visited by trucks that takes fresh deliveries regularly is your best bet. There are plenty of name brand stations on my way to work that I avoid due to high prices and slow turnover.

 

[IFRCFI]

It's in your manual.

No, it's not. The manual is mute on additives for diesels. Read carefully.


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[IFRCFI]

This is why I bought and installed the 2Micron system a year ago.

Is there an example of where this system worked? (HPFP failure with no collateral damage)


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[Zlartibartfast]

evo,

I think you will find that a high turnover station visited by trucks that takes fresh deliveries regularly is your best bet. There are plenty of name brand stations on my way to work that I avoid due to high prices and slow turnover.

I agree with Matt927

I have also avoided fueling when the delivery truck is re-stocking the diesel tank(s). A friend of mine, who was a delivery driver in the past, told me that if there is crud in the storage tank, it gets churned up when new fuel is added. He said try to wait about 1/2 hr after re-stock before you pump. This is the same for gasoline.

And, just to show how OCD I can be, if I see a lot of residue on the pump nozzle, I wipe it a thoroughly as I can using the paper towels they provide for cleaning your windshield. Once I was down at South Padre Island and I pulled into a station where the pump nozzle had sand sticking to it. The fuel was cheaper there than on the mainland, but I did not buy it!

what goes in, must come out....

 

[evoblade]

Well, VWOA has the information now. They are supposed to let me know tomorrow (Friday) or monday at the latest. The lady I spoke to was very nice. She seemed to be leaning towards paying for it, if it is indeed the HPFP, but would not give an answer either way. I am somewhat confident, but if I don't hear back with a positive answer by the end of Friday, I am going to spend Saturday afternoon car shopping.

 

[psrumors]

Well, VWOA has the information now. They are supposed to let me know tomorrow (Friday) or monday at the latest. The lady I spoke to was very nice. She seemed to be leaning towards paying for it, if it is indeed the HPFP, but would not give an answer either way. I am somewhat confident, but if I don't hear back with a positive answer by the end of Friday, I am going to spend Saturday afternoon car shopping.

A weekend wait is just unacceptable considering this is a known, documented issue.

Hopefully she will call you tomorrow morning with good news.