My TDI bit the dust yesterday (HPFP Failure)

pdt165

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Location
Fl
TDI
2011 Jetta 6 speed (Bought Back)
VW paid for everything. I got the car back yesterday and everything seems to fine.

The guy at the dealership told me even if I had 190K miles on the car that VW would replace free of charge since it is a known problem.
I have a friend who is a tech at a local stealership and he told me to that VW is replacing ALL fuel systems when the HPFP fails. No questions asked, bad fuel, mileage, nothing seems to matter.
 

TDIx2

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Joined
May 11, 2003
Location
Saginaw Mi ~ looking out for deer and dangerous pe
TDI
2014 Jetta
VW paid for everything. I got the car back yesterday and everything seems to fine.

The guy at the dealership told me even if I had 190K miles on the car that VW would replace free of charge since it is a known problem.
might be time to consider some optilube additives since your fuel system is all new. Interesting that VW agrees it a know problem...... baby steps
 

PlaneCrazy

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Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Location
Province of Quebec, Canada
TDI
Gone...
The caveat about additives: the dealer says no additives; they can increase ash load on the DPF, which isn not cheap to replace either. Well, maybe cheaper than an HPFP which is NOT covered in Canada beyond the basic warranty but still not cheap.

However in the US has been systematically covering the HPFP failures regardless of mileage. So you may want to weigh the risk of additive use vs any statistically unproven gains from an additive, especially since it may void any possible coverage for a DPF failure.
 

jason_

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Jun 2, 2014
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michigan
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2015 s wagon dsg
Crowding 200k on a 09.

For half the cost I can replumb and go Malone stage2, and not be bolting in another headache.

So I'll be looking for additives.

Sent from my rooted HTC Supersonic using Tapatalk 2 Pro
 

Black_Smoke

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Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Location
in the garage (Devon, Alberta)
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2000, 2003 and 2014 TDI Jettas and a fairly speedy '05 Duramax
The pump is designed to be lubricated by diesel. Proper lubrication is not a mysterious thing that engineers guess at and hope for the best. It is calculated and tested. The pump is not designed to be lubricated by water, dirt, gasoline, purple jelly, or teds slick diesel conditioner. Spending your $$ putting additives in your fuel that don't guarantee any increased lubricity is silly. For all you know it could be reducing the lubricity. (show me the data...) Another thing that additives do not do is remove contaminants. It is contamination that kills pumps. If you want additional lubricity buy diesel which is blended with some biodiesel. Biodiesel is one of the best (tested) lubricity enhancers out there. It is also not always a good plan to buy the cheapest diesel around. Buy it from stations with reputable names that turn over alot of volume.
 

Matt927

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Northeast
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several
The caveat about additives: the dealer says no additives; they can increase ash load on the DPF, which isn not cheap to replace either. Well, maybe cheaper than an HPFP which is NOT covered in Canada beyond the basic warranty but still not cheap.

However in the US has been systematically covering the HPFP failures regardless of mileage. So you may want to weigh the risk of additive use vs any statistically unproven gains from an additive, especially since it may void any possible coverage for a DPF failure.
There is nothing in my owner's manual that states anything with regards to fuel additives in the diesel section. It simply states no start fluids in cold weather.

In the gasoline section of the manual it prohibits additives.

There are additives that have been tested and shown to increase lubricity of North American ULSD and help keep your fuel system. cleaner. In fact, Optilube XPD's additive package is very similar to what is added to raw D2 at the fuel terminal.

No one knows what is causing the failures, poor lubricity fuels, contaminates in the fuel (including gasoline) or just a poor pump design. VW's mis-fueling adapter has not stopped the failures though......
 
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joeelmex

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Joined
Oct 1, 2012
Location
Atlanta GA
TDI
2012 Jetta Premium
Is that at the racetrack or at RaceTrac? :D
LoL RaceTrac you right psrumors. Btw I was in your neck of the woods in Cartersville covering a story about the Ebola outbreak. There's a private company there that had an airplane equipped to transport the patients.
 

psrumors

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Feb 14, 2013
Location
Cartersville, GA
TDI
MK4
LoL RaceTrac you right psrumors. Btw I was in your neck of the woods in Cartersville covering a story about the Ebola outbreak. There's a private company there that had an airplane equipped to transport the patients.
Oh yes, Phoenix Air.... We are so proud :/
 

KITEWAGON

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Location
Seacoast, NH
TDI
2014 Touareg Exec, 2014 JSW
VW paid for everything. I got the car back yesterday and everything seems to fine.

The guy at the dealership told me even if I had 190K miles on the car that VW would replace free of charge since it is a known problem.
I'm glad to hear it! And it makes me feel so much better knowing that VW is fixing these cars.
 

TDIx2

Veteran Member
Joined
May 11, 2003
Location
Saginaw Mi ~ looking out for deer and dangerous pe
TDI
2014 Jetta
The pump is designed to be lubricated by diesel. Proper lubrication is not a mysterious thing that engineers guess at and hope for the best. It is calculated and tested. The pump is not designed to be lubricated by water, dirt, gasoline, purple jelly, or teds slick diesel conditioner. Spending your $$ putting additives in your fuel that don't guarantee any increased lubricity is silly. For all you know it could be reducing the lubricity. (show me the data...) Another thing that additives do not do is remove contaminants. It is contamination that kills pumps. If you want additional lubricity buy diesel which is blended with some biodiesel. Biodiesel is one of the best (tested) lubricity enhancers out there. It is also not always a good plan to buy the cheapest diesel around. Buy it from stations with reputable names that turn over alot of volume.
Seems odd to me that you don't support additives but believe bio is great. Using bio is an additive to diesel just as XPD is. The engineers made a fuel pump that requires 460 or less rating and diesel fuel has a standard of 520. XPD is proven in scientific tests to improve this. Bio diesel is good at this too however comes with it's short comings.
 

Black_Smoke

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Jan 12, 2010
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in the garage (Devon, Alberta)
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2000, 2003 and 2014 TDI Jettas and a fairly speedy '05 Duramax
Seems odd to me that you don't support additives but believe bio is great. Using bio is an additive to diesel just as XPD is. The engineers made a fuel pump that requires 460 or less rating and diesel fuel has a standard of 520. XPD is proven in scientific tests to improve this. Bio diesel is good at this too however comes with it's short comings.
The reason that I mentioned bio-diesel specifically is that it is commonly available as a 5% blend at the pumps. (at least around here.) Beyond that, I don't have a special place in my heart for biodiesel. As you mention, it has it's demons as well, although they are largely mitigated at low blend rates.

It's good to see that opti-lube is posting HFRR tests for their products which claim to boost lubricity. I would be inclinded to use this product over others out there. It's odd they don't have test data to support their other claims.

My main issue with additives is you generally don't really know what is in the additive, and even if you did, you don't know what it's effect will be. It may improve lubricity, but have a detrimental effect somwhere else (DPF/Catalysts). You can fill up with a biodiesel blend at the pump and get similar lubricity enhancement for no extra dollars and have piece of mind that it meets the fuel standards that the car has been desiged for.

I don't know what lubricity value Bosch designed the pump to, but I'm sure they designed it with the intention that it would be running on readily available pump fuel. They know that some times, the fuel might not be of the highest quality. This is certainly not Bosch's first crack at a high pressure fuel pump.

I suppose my point with all of this is that if you're pumping old diesel, contaminated with gasoline out of a filthy tank into your car, no amount of mis-fuel adaptors or Opti-Lube will help you. Just buy fresh fuel from a reputable dealer and you will likely never have a problem.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Don't know where you are (other than in your garage) but there are no regular service stations here with 5% bio. Only places to get bio in the Northeast is heating companies who stock B20 and B99. You can buy a jug and use it as an additive.

And Bosch did design a pump to work on readily available pump fuel...in Europe. Why VW decided to release common rail cars here without taking fuel quality into consideration, and why they don't recommend an additive to help improve lubricity of our pump fuel is a mystery to me.

I don't think it's difficult to find out what's in additives. And you can pump B5 from a nasty old, poorly maintained pump with a dirty filter, too. My local Sunoco station (should be reputable, right?) is terrible about replacing filters on its diesel pumps. Several times I've been there and the pump is extremely slow because of a clogged filter. I don't go there anymore.

We can bicker about bio versus additives, but I would find it hard to make a case for using nothing but straight pump diesel in the US in common rail cars. Additives are inexpensive, data seems to indicate they're necessary. Why not? B2 works fine as well.
 

tdi90hp

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Location
Canuckland
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6 speed(gone but NEVER forgotten)
Don't know where you are (other than in your garage) but there are no regular service stations here with 5% bio. Only places to get bio in the Northeast is heating companies who stock B20 and B99. You can buy a jug and use it as an additive.

And Bosch did design a pump to work on readily available pump fuel...in Europe. Why VW decided to release common rail cars here without taking fuel quality into consideration, and why they don't recommend an additive to help improve lubricity of our pump fuel is a mystery to me.

I don't think it's difficult to find out what's in additives. And you can pump B5 from a nasty old, poorly maintained pump with a dirty filter, too. My local Sunoco station (should be reputable, right?) is terrible about replacing filters on its diesel pumps. Several times I've been there and the pump is extremely slow because of a clogged filter. I don't go there anymore.


We can bicker about bio versus additives, but I would find it hard to make a case for using nothing but straight pump diesel in the US in common rail cars. Additives are inexpensive, data seems to indicate they're necessary. Why not? B2 works fine as well.


Agree. Have used additives religiously (PS) for over 20 years. Why do you think EVERY truck stop on every interstate sells gallons and gallons of it. Truckers are notoriously cheap. Yet many use additives. I know they aren't VW diesels but makes ya think. I say again don't use additives at your own risk or just keep hoping VW will fix your pump. In Canada POST warranty...after 80,000 kms you are on your OWN.VW Canada is turning down claims and that is a known fact. So buyer beware and invest in some luuuube............
 

Black_Smoke

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Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Location
in the garage (Devon, Alberta)
TDI
2000, 2003 and 2014 TDI Jettas and a fairly speedy '05 Duramax
...why they don't recommend an additive to help improve lubricity of our pump fuel is a mystery to me.
VW (those with actual information) must not think it's needed. If they thought that releasing additive specs would have a significant effect on failures, I'm sure they would. They are, after all, typically the ones footing the bill for replacement fuel systems. If they could do something that costs them essentially nothing and reduced warranty claims, I'm sure they would. Since they explicitly recommend against additives, they must feel that their overall effect is detrimental to the engine.

...Several times I've been there and the pump is extremely slow because of a clogged filter. I don't go there anymore...
Avoiding potentially poor fuel quality. I like it. I think this is smarter than just throwing in an extra squirt of XPD and hoping for the best.

...data seems to indicate they're necessary.
What data??

Whatever let's you sleep at night I guess.
 

Matt927

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Location
Northeast
TDI
several
If VW started recommending additives be added while fueling your diesel vehicle I believe people would say no thank you. Imagine recommending to owners that every time you fuel your car you have to add a pungent additive package?

Most folks here don't mind, but I see many TDIs every day with a wide range of people in the drivers seat, I can not imagine most would be ok with adding something to their fuel tanks at every fill.
 

Stealth TDI

Pre-Forum Veteran Member
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Feb 13, 1998
Location
Newport News, VA
TDI
2017 GTI APR Stage 3 (395 hp/376 lb-ft)
Somehow, post #46 made me think of the movie "Tucker" where an engineer(?) said, "We can't install seatbelts! People will think our cars are unsafe!" Likewise, "We can't require additives. People will think the car is unreliable without them." :D
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I read recently that VW's owners' manuals recommend against additives in their gasoline powered cars, but say nothing about additives, positive or negative, for diesels. I'll have to look at my Golf's manual to verify.

And data that supports the need for additives? I was referring to the data in this thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=268198

Regarding what VW is doing replacing fuel systems at their cost and not recommending additives, I'm betting lawyers, not engineers, are now making those decisions. Replace fuel systems on what, 1 or 2% of the cars out there or risk lawsuits from a much larger group of owners for any number of reasons. Probably a legal and financial decision, not an engineering one.

I've only read of one (PlaneCrazy), perhaps two situations where HPFP failures outside of warranty were not covered by warranty. Are there more? And PlaneCrazy himself acknowledges his HPFP may have been fine. He was chasing a problem that the new pump did not solve. Failure rate in Canada is much lower than the US, anyway. Perhaps it's the fuel? :)
 

PlaneCrazy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Location
Province of Quebec, Canada
TDI
Gone...
I read recently that VW's owners' manuals recommend against additives in their gasoline powered cars, but say nothing about additives, positive or negative, for diesels. I'll have to look at my Golf's manual to verify.

And data that supports the need for additives? I was referring to the data in this thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=268198

Regarding what VW is doing replacing fuel systems at their cost and not recommending additives, I'm betting lawyers, not engineers, are now making those decisions. Replace fuel systems on what, 1 or 2% of the cars out there or risk lawsuits from a much larger group of owners for any number of reasons. Probably a legal and financial decision, not an engineering one.

I've only read of one (PlaneCrazy), perhaps two situations where HPFP failures outside of warranty were not covered by warranty. Are there more? And PlaneCrazy himself acknowledges his HPFP may have been fine. He was chasing a problem that the new pump did not solve. Failure rate in Canada is much lower than the US, anyway. Perhaps it's the fuel? :)
Correct, the problem was sudden loss of power under full-throttle acceleration (such as when overtaking or a tight merge). The HPFP change did not correct the problem, which was most likely due to IC condensation. So far this year the problem has not recurred. Maybe it's the Saint Benedict medals I put in the car :p

They did take the intake duct out from the rad to the air box when they found the IC hose choked with ice last winter, and my car does have the IC TSB kit installed.

The reason they thought the HPFP was because of metal shavings in the fuel filter. Whether that was an impending disaster or not, we'll never know. I've got about 26k km on it since the replacement. It's due to go in for the 120k service in about 2k, and I think a fuel filter change is part of that inspection, so I should have an idea of what's going on with the new pump. They did not, incidentally, change out the entire fuel system as the pump hadn't actually grenaded. The car is actually running better than it ever has at the moment, touch wood, getting new tires for it soon (ordered through Costco).
 

highender

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Location
Northern California
TDI
2012 Jetta TDI
Buy a gallon of Biodiesel 100%. COsts maybe $5 . Put in a gallon container in garage. Fill a small sealable cup with the biodiesel, any old clean container that will not leak will do. Keep about a quart or so in an upright box in the trunk. Pour half into the diesel tank before fillup.

Keeps your engine running nicely , and HPFP nicely lubricated. Cheap insurance. And it is way less concentration than Biodiesel 5% though.... so dealers should not be able to hassle you on warranty issues.

Just went out and placed 4 ounces of biodiesel just now.

Good luck.
 

pdt165

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Location
Fl
TDI
2011 Jetta 6 speed (Bought Back)
Buy a gallon of Biodiesel 100%. COsts maybe $5 . Put in a gallon container in garage. Fill a small sealable cup with the biodiesel, any old clean container that will not leak will do. Keep about a quart or so in an upright box in the trunk. Pour half into the diesel tank before fillup.

Keeps your engine running nicely , and HPFP nicely lubricated. Cheap insurance. And it is way less concentration than Biodiesel 5% though.... so dealers should not be able to hassle you on warranty issues.

Just went out and placed 4 ounces of biodiesel just now.

Good luck.
That solution sounds great, but the availbility of BIO is small. Ive personally never came across any, even B5. The nice thing about additives is you can either buy in a store or have delivered to your door depending on which you buy.
 

Tuco

Veteran Member
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Feb 22, 2014
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Las Vegas
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2010 Jetta
That solution sounds great, but the availbility of BIO is small. Ive personally never came across any, even B5. The nice thing about additives is you can either buy in a store or have delivered to your door depending on which you buy.
Unfortunately, this seems to be all too common in certain parts of the US. Unless I make my own biodiesel, I would have to drive several hundred miles to buy some.
 

993er

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2013
Location
Canada
TDI
None
Perhaps it's the fuel? :)
An older report, but fuel samples taken from vehicles found traces of gasoline...might that be the problem?


NHTSA Action Number: PE10034
NHTSA Recall Campaign Number: N/A
Vehicle Make / Model: Model Year(s):
AUDI / A3 2010
VOLKSWAGEN / GOLF 2010
VOLKSWAGEN / JETTA 2009-2010
Manufacturer(s): Volkswagen of America, Inc.
Component(s): FUEL SYSTEM, DIESEL
Date Investigation Opened: August 26, 2010
Date Investigation Closed: February 8, 2011

Summary:
The Office of Defects Investigation (ODI) and Volkswagen (VW) have received a total of 160 complaints and field reports alleging incidents of engine stall and/or loss of power that appear to be related to high pressure fuel pump (HPFP) failures in certain model year (MY) 2009 through 2010 Volkswagen Jetta and MY 2010 Volkswagen Golf and Audi A3 vehicles equipped with TDI clean diesel engines. Approximately half of the reports indicate that the failure resulted in an engine stall incident, with many of these alleging stall incidents at highway speeds in traffic with no restart. There has been one minor crash alleged to have resulted from HPFP failure in the subject vehicles. In response to ODI's information request for PE10-034, VW indicated that it had "found no defect related to motor vehicle safety with relation to the TDI Clean Diesel fuel system at issue in this investigation" and attributed problems with HPFP failure to operation with gasoline contaminated diesel fuel. Volkswagen stated that "even a small amount of gasoline in the diesel fuel may disrupt the necessary lubrication required and may cause the HPFP to fail." In response to concerns that fuel contamination was the major cause of HPFP and related fuel system failures, VW issued a Technical Service Bulletin in May 2010 (VW TB V011011 2023624 and Audi TB A011008 2023360-1), with instructions to inspect the diesel fuel for vehicles requiring fuel system service that have symptoms associated with HPFP failure. The bulletin states that "fuel system damage incurred by use of fuel not complying to ASTM-D-975 Grade 2 S15 (B5 or less biodiesel content) standards will not be covered under warranty." Volkswagen also provided information about 121 mis-fueling incidents reportedly acknowledged by consumers or dealers and test results for about 50 diesel fuel samples taken from complaint vehicles in late-August through early-October 2010. The mis-fueling incidents include about 20 reports involving incorrect fueling by dealer sales or service personnel and generally report symptoms such as rough running, stalling and/or no start within a few miles of refueling the vehicle with gasoline. Volkswagen indicated that the testing of fuel samples from complaint vehicles found that nearly 90 percent contained high amounts of gasoline. Volkswagen implemented design changes for the HPFP in May 2008, September 2009 and November 2010 to improve the robustness of the pump when used with poor quality fuel. ODI analysis of HPFP failures identified from all sources shows failure rates of 0.53% for MY 2009 vehicles and 0.11% for MY 2010 vehicles. This investigation has been upgraded to an Engineering Analysis (EA11-003) to continue to investigate the issues with mis-fueling and HPFP design identified during the Preliminary Evaluation.
 
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redbarron55

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Location
Navarre, FL.
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI Executive
I wonder just how much contammination is found?
Fuel trucks swap loadsof dieseland gasoline all the time and usually allow less than five gallons of flush the whole truck, all compartments. 7200 gallons roughly.
 

psrumors

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Location
Cartersville, GA
TDI
MK4
Just out of curiosity, what is the list price of one of those from a VW dealer?
Based on the remanufactured PN others have posted, they can be had for less than $700 online.

It's a real shame that all the other components get destroyed when the HPFP eats itself.
 

psrumors

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Location
Cartersville, GA
TDI
MK4
Sorry, but I'm not in the loop. What else goes and how does it make it to those parts...via a fuel return line?
When the HPFP goes the entire fuel system gets replaced, rail, injectors, fuel tank gets cleaned, some lines are being replaced while others are being cleaned. Not sure about the LPFP
 
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